taking Jazz too seriously

[Ed Coury]

... As a general rule, I don't call someone stupid unless they consistently demonstrate stupidity as a trait.

 

I think we should leave politics out of forum discussions.

 

Larry.

 

[Eric VB]

I stand corrected. (See: Wikipedia on Art Music)

Art music (or serious music[1] or erudite music), as defined by Jacques Siron, is an umbrella term generally used to refer to musical traditions implying advanced structural and theoretical considerations.[2]

 

It is used especially as a contrasting term to popular music and traditional music.[3][4] While often used to refer primarily to Western historical classical music, the term may refer to:

 

* The classical musics of several different cultures around the world.

* Contemporary classical music, including electronic art music, experimental (art) music and minimalist music, as well as other forms.

* Some forms of jazz, excluding most forms generally considered to be popular music.

It used to be that they just labeled things as either music of the nobility ("classical") or music of the commoner ("popular").

 

[playsthe88s]

This was mentioned in another thread - the so-called rock elite do not take jazz seriously.

Musicians who dis other musicians because they don't play what they play or like are idiots.

 

Seriously though looks like this is the reason jazz is disappearing from public scene more and more and it's less lucrative then other genres. Many performers I've seen including the "big" names are forgetting music is all about melody, not just group masturbating on stage.

There's still plenty of live jazz to be heard. It ain't going away. Classical music is having a tough time right now, too. Opera? Fugheddaboudit. Tastes go through cycles. Dry periods. That don't mean it's dead. I hear Gregorian chant is poised for a big comeback, someday.

 

FYI, I've seen Keith Jarrett (on occasion) masturbate on stage. It's not a pretty picture.

[SK]

iLaw is right that jazz is an acquired taste.

 

Jazz is a historic development of styles which evolved from pop music to art, to a loose, general term for improvisation today.

 

It's long been regarded as an American art form. That's fact, not opinion. The fact that could surprise anyone is surprising indeed. Jazz has always been a melting pot of styles from around the world, creating its own singular art form and language in the US. That's why it's called America's original art form, which can be traced back to Louis Armstrong and the invention of the hi-hat in NYC.

 

If anyone takes offense to that or doesn't believe it, look it up. Wikipedia isn't the best source.

http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=Jazz%2Bart+form&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

 

DH and SK, what on earth my playing or your playing for that matter have to do with our discussion?

delirium, my reason for saying I hoped you'd post an mp3 wasn't a taunt, or to force you to do anything you're not comfortable with. I just was trying to get some idea of the kind of music you like or play - because you have some strong opinions on the role of solo piano and the future direction of music.

 

[Griffinator]

For the record, I have no problem whatsoever with jazz. I actually enjoy listening to a lounge trio occasionally, although I prefer fusion and abstract for the challenge - which is the same reason I prefer progressive rock and art rock over most other forms...

 

That said, I have no patience for jazz snobs.

[Dave Horne]

For the record, I have no problem whatsoever with jazz.

 

Fine, I'll sleep better tonight. You know, I'll never get those 13 minutes back.

 

That said, I have no patience for jazz snobs.

 

A snob is only someone who possesses a little more information than you ... and expresses it or puts you on the spot.

 

I have no patience for those who post opinions in a keyboard forum and yet do not post their set lists ... or where they are performing.

 

So tell us, where are you playing this weekend. I'm sure someone here can take the time to listen.

[timwat]

Dave:

 

An honest question - why are set lists/performing schedules a prerequisite for posting an opinion on this forum?

 

Tim

[Dave Horne]

Dave:

 

An honest question - why are set lists/performing schedules a prerequisite for posting an opinion on this forum?

 

Tim

 

Well, it seems asking someone to post an mp3 of their playing to prove their worth is off limits; asking for a set list is the next best thing and helps to put some musical perspective in the discussion. There seem to be so many here who have no profile that it's difficult to know who is a poser and who isn't.

 

Of course I'm assuming that I'm talking to musicians who actually play the piano in real time for people who are actually listening in real time.

 

Clear?

[SK]

For the record, I have no problem whatsoever with jazz. I actually enjoy listening to a lounge trio occasionally, although I prefer fusion and abstract for the challenge - which is the same reason I prefer progressive rock and art rock over most other forms...

 

That said, I have no patience for jazz snobs.

I have no problem with your musical tastes, Griff, or anybody's. I'm not concerned with other people's tastes or what they may think of mine. Now I'm not sure if you're implying that I'm a snob, but it doesn't matter. Like you or anyone else, I don't care for snobs of any kind, or name calling. So we're on the same page on our mutual dislike of snobs.

 

I'm not siding against anybody here, or with anyone, other than the music itself. I only came back on this thread to let delirium know that I wasn't taunting him, and to support what Jazz+ said about jazz being an art form. To be very clear, that's not an attack on you or snobbery. Beyond that, there's nothing more for me to add... except that music is a great thing. We shouldn't ruin it or alienate musicians by over discussing it.

[ITGITC]

...music is a great thing. We shouldn't ruin it or alienate musicians by over discussing it.

 

Right on.

 

Word.

 

+1

 

I luvs you SK.

[delirium]

Jazz is a historic development of styles which evolved from pop music to art, to a loose, general term for improvisation today.

 

so you're saying pop cannot be art??? Couldn't disagree more. Tell this Britney Spears

Besides didn't jazz evolved from blues rather then pop, did we have "pop" at that time anyway? Pop was like classic and folk I guess.

Besides that "jazz" name is a little fuzzy to mee, todays it means improvised music which can have little or nothing to do with "american jazz". Bach improvised a lot also...

 

[Griffinator]

A snob is only someone who possesses a little more information than you ... and expresses it or puts you on the spot.

 

No, a jazz snob is someone who perceives jazz as superior to all other forms of music, and haughtily derides other people for playing music that isn't jazz. Kinda like you.

 

I have no patience for those who post opinions in a keyboard forum and yet do not post their set lists ... or where they are performing.

 

I gave you an MP3, you panned it. Get over it.

 

So tell us, where are you playing this weekend. I'm sure someone here can take the time to listen.

 

I don't play lounge. So sorry to disappoint. You can brag about being paid to wallpaper a restaurant all you want. Doesn't invalidate me as a musician.

 

Since you just can't live without this information, my next gig will be playing bass with a cover band at a Moose Lodge here in town. Nothing really special there, it's decent pay, we play a lot of stuff you hate, like rock. Thankfully, the crowd won't be solely comprised of jazz snobs.

[SK]

Jazz is a historic development of styles which evolved from pop music to art, to a loose, general term for improvisation today.

 

so you're saying pop cannot be art??? Couldn't disagree more. Tell this Britney Spears

Besides didn't jazz evolved from blues rather then pop, did we have "pop" at that time anyway? Pop was like classic and folk I guess.

Besides that "jazz" name is a little fuzzy to mee, todays it means improvised music which can have little or nothing to do with "american jazz". Bach improvised a lot also...

Oh come on, delirium, don't make me post in this thread anymore.

 

Sorry, you're wrong about what I said. Jazz came from the blues, yes, but I said it went from being a popular form of music ("pop") to a serious art form. I did NOT say that pop cannot also be art.

 

And the improvised music today known as "jazz" still has its roots in the jazz language. That language has everything to do with American jazz and more recent European jazz - it's a language that did not in existence in Bach's day.

 

Without studying the music, one won't recognize the language.

 

[delirium]

it's a language that did not in existence in Bach's day.

 

that's my point, improvised music existed way before american jazz

as well exists today without any influence from it.

 

So Bach was not a jazzer?

[Griffinator]

So Bach was not a jazzer?

 

No, but if jazz had existed back then, he'd have ditched the church organ for a B3 and invented bebop instead of writing stodgy old cantatas!

 

 

I wonder what the Toccata and Fugue would sound like in D Blues, with a bossa nova beat behind it?

[orangefunk]

I saw () bands like EST as being pop jazz but I don't mean that in a negative way... I mean that its really accessible and worthy of reaching more people than it does. I also hear some jazz inflected electronica that should be in the charts but it rarely is...

 

As far as setlists.. well this week I've only played Little Sunflower, Chameleon and even the dreaded Autumn Leaves (goddamnit someone actually asked me!) in my sets but its not really where I'm at as most tracks we do are composed (usual singer songwriters stuff) by someone else or jam tunes or even covers of modern songs that have a jammed edge (Dave Matthews band)... its just the nature of modern gigging.. and now I have a KAOSS pad I'm thrilled to take it further...

 

I just wish Dave H could be a bit more encompassing and acknowledge that its okay to do music written in the last 20 years... I appreciate the skill it takes to do what he does but its not what everyone wants to do regardless of skill/technique/knowledge...

[SK]

So Bach was not a jazzer?

For the record, no, he wasn't. He was an improvisor of the highest order... but "pre-jazz".

 

Also:

Without studying the music, one won't recognize the language.

[orangefunk]

But, I honestly have just as much respect for a DJ guy who triggers samples from his little finger as a jazz pianist...

 

That could actually fit on a tombstone.

 

 

Well I don't know many jazz pianists who could do something like this... http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=uVlkFN6itzU

 

It takes a certain kind of skill and knowledge to do this kind of music pastiche... I mean there must be a couple of hundred samples in there... and David Friedman's vibe solo is spot on... nice hybrid of styles, great drum programming, sampling.... not easy at all to do. In fact it took 3 guys 18 months to do this track and they take their music every bit as seriously as you or any other musician.

 

 

[orangefunk]

Also I don't confuse those Ibiza DJ types with the ones I am referring to.. yep those Ibiza techno guys are just narcicists of the highest order...

[delirium]

Also:

Without studying the music, one won't recognize the language.

 

why would you like to recognize the language if you understand it?

I don't care how it's called. You don't study music, you feel it.

 

 

[jsaras]

You don't study music, you feel it.

 

I'd like to see you "feel" your way through Brahms or Rachmaninov, or a 'meaningless' solo on "I Got Rhythm" in the key of B major.

 

"Knowledge must lead intuition". - Bill Evans

[Jazzwee]

delirium, it might interest you to know that Bill Evans studied "it" with great devotion. He looked at it as a difficult problem to be solved and not a "feel it" kind of thing.

 

Listen to Bill Evans himself. Start at 2:30 or so to 5:15.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ihw6K7jiAS4&feature=related

 

He does not talk about Jazz as something you just feel. Obviously he himself went through extensive study. Your view of jazz has no basis in reality. Don't you think Bill Evans' words deserve some careful listening?

 

 

 

[Jazz+]

There certainly is a lot of circular logic exhibited in this thread.

[Dave Ferris]

Let's hear your "meaningful true improvisations" that put Kenny Barron to shame

 

Yeah Jsaras...now you're talking. KB is one of my greatest influences. I used to listen to him so much, I had to STOP listening to him....it was becoming a "Trane thing" like with Tenor players.

 

I would wager a guess that 95% of the forum are not familiar with his great artistry. Touch, chops, taste, melody, compositions, it's all there.

 

If anyone wants to take Jazz "seriously", I'd recommend you familiarize yourself with this great pianist.

[delirium]

Jazzwee, don't take me so literally

I studied music too, but at some point I decided I don't want to analyze music anymore. Maybe this is problem with todays jazz too, they put too much study into it, but it's not a science.

[Dave Ferris]

"I Got Rhythm" in the key of B major.

 

Ok Delirium...quick, how many sharps in the key of B without looking it up ?

What would be the first chord on the bridge of Rhythm changes in the key of B?..quick.

 

Is this "studied"? Well, yes and no.

Yes.... you have to know what that chord is to play the right scale/line/idea over.

No....you'd have to have an ear that is out of this world, but still know the language or vocabulary to speak correctly and fluently..

 

No amount of feeling in the world is gonna get you through that bridge.

[Jazzwee]

My point is that you don't get to the level of "feeling" the music without the "serious" foundation that jazz demands. I don't know how to play jazz other with the full knowledge of theory in the background. And when you think you know all the theory, I'm sure there's more that you and I don't know or yet to discover.

 

Even when you achieve this state of just so-called "feeling", all you are doing is watching the big picture while your subconscious supplies the grimy details of chord/scales/voicings...

 

I wonder what Bill Evans is "feeling" when he repeatedly arpeggiates from the 3rd to the 9th of the chord. Did he just feel rhythmic displacement or do you think it is something he purposely practiced to be integrated into a professional performance?

 

Since I am just a jazz student, I cannot give you personal histories of achievement. I have none. But my teachers who have reached a certain level do describe that they can reach a certain level of professional performance because they trained for that. And that their goal is to just bring it up a notch in live play that they hope will reach another pinnacle. But still it has to be based on the large amount of technical skill and knowledge and proportionally less of the "feeling".

[SK]

"Feeling" is part of being a musician. Jazz is an actual language, with different dialects and many different types of emotion. It takes more time to understand it and appreciate it than a lot of music.

 

Learning a language = listening = a form of study

 

All listeners and musicians feel. Anyone can feel music to a varying extent without study, but they won't understand what they're hearing, or be able to play it. If you don't listen, you aren't studying fully, and if you don't study, you won't learn a language.

 

There's no requirement for a musician to study, because there's no quality control in music. It's all "music" under one umbrella, and even a music degree doesn't guarantee one knows how to play. But...

 

Shouldn't a musician understand music more than a listener? If not, why do they pay us to play?

 

Just my final thoughts here.

[Jazzwee]

Just my final thoughts here.

 

Don't give up so soon now...

 

Well said SK

[Jazz+]

Well said both of you!