OT: Borat

[Floyd Tatum]

I laughed, but I felt ashamed of myself afterwards.

 

[Dave Horne]

When I saw the film (over here) the audience, mostly young adults\teenagers laughed but they laughed at the wrong things.

 

I had the distinct feeling the irony\satire bits went unnoticed - they laughed at the gross humor but not at the underlying bits.

 

[SK]

When I saw the film (over here) the audience, mostly young adults\teenagers laughed but they laughed at the wrong things.

 

I had the distinct feeling the irony\satire bits went unnoticed - they laughed at the gross humor but not at the underlying bits.

 

Yeah, that's a recently cultivated social phenomenon, isn't it, that the big laughs are usually laughs of embarrassment. Irony and dry, subtle satire fly over the audience's heads like a stealth bomber.

[bloodyMary]

The scene with ms. Anderson was staged, and you can see that she is featured in the credits as one of the 3 actors in the movie (Borat, the producer, and Pamela).

 

I absolutely loved the movie, so did all of my friends. By the way, did you know that Borat was actually banned in Kazachstan and Russia?

[bloodyMary]

BTW, I laughed at everything. Especially the scenes where he showed his motherland. This was amazing.

 

Oh, and the song "throw the jew down the well.." is awesome.

- I'm a jew myself.

[Steve Force]

I laughed, but I felt ashamed of myself afterwards.

 

I watched it with the alarm set and the drapes drawn.

 

[Key Basher]

I heard great things about it, but when we finally got around to watching it was painfully bad. The only good part was when he liberated his pet chicken. Glad we didn't spend real money to see that thing. Yeesh!

[NoahZark]

I thought it was simultaneously stupid and brilliant. Stupid in a good way though - I can't really explain that....

 

Kevin: No need to explain. I totally get this and agree!

 

Oh, and the song "throw the jew down the well.." is awesome.

- I'm a jew myself.

 

So is Sasha Baron Cohen -- and apparently a fairly observant one at that. Me too, by the way, except I'm about as far from "observant" as you can get. Bacon cheeseburgers and an ice cold glass of milk?!?! Bring it!!!

 

To the extent there's any "flaw" with Borat, though, it's the one that Dave Horne and SK identify above -- namely, a lot of the satire is probably lost on at least a portion of the viewing audience. (Admittedly, this is less a flaw with the comedian than a flaw with the audience.)

 

It's the same fear I have about guys like Howard Stern: Some people just don't get it. So, instead of seeing a song like "Throw The Jew Down The Well" as satirical comedy, they'll just pick up the "hate" in the lyrics and run with it. Clearly, the danger of this approach can't be lost on a guy like Sasha Baron Cohen (since exposing the biases and prejudices of certain people is essentially the point of his movie), but I bet it eats at him a bit that he could actually be contributing to things like anti-semitism instead of helping to end it.

 

(I hope this isn't turning too political. If so, I'll shut up.)

 

Noah

 

P.S. My Borat "Brush with Fame" -- The car dealership where Borat went to shop for a Hummer in the movie is located about 10 minutes from where I live. I've actually seen that sales guy at that dealership, although I don't know if he still works there.

[zephonic]

Of course, I'll admit that I -unlike y'all- am too dumb to get the satire, but perhaps -just perhaps- there are other more intelligent folks out there who do get it and just don't find it that funny? I think the whole thing is lame and outdated.

[Joe Muscara]

Zeph, could it be that you're too close to it, like the way some musicians react to Spinal Tap? I had a friend and he wanted no part in seeing Borat, because he knew that it would piss him off.

[Steve Force]

Well, for those of us that have followed Mr. Cohen's career (HBO's "Da Ali G Show", Borat in other situations, etc) knew what to expect. It seems zephonic was expecting something other that what it was suppose to be--satire. That's cool--it certainly wasn't for everybody.

 

 

 

 

[zephonic]

Good people, I am neither too close to it nor was I expecting anything. Impossible though it may seem, I DID get that it was meant to be satire but I just didn't think it was funny. Why is that so hard to believe?

I never thought that the Ali G thing was particularly good, either. More of the same, really. I did like him in Will Ferrell's Talladega Nights, though, but his own shows just leave me utterly unimpressed.

 

[Steve Force]

Dude, you are the one harping on it....

[Joe Muscara]

I didn't say it was hard to believe. I was just throwing the possibility out there of why you might not have liked it.

[DeepEddieZilker]

Okay...

 

I'll bite - right down on the fence. I guess I see two sides to this. One side is taking the argument that Sacha pushed the boundaries of social taboos in an amusing effort to exhibit America's cultural ironies - thereby ascribing a positive motivation for his work as/in Borat. The other side, regardless of the attribution of a quasi-moral intention, appreciates the work of Mr. Cohen as one in a long line of media mooks poking their ideas through the Super-Ego to tickle the Id; who are therefore unwelcome in the cyclonic litany of vulgar media placements that markets enough bad behavior to saturate a society with justifications for poor manners.

 

Tom Green, Jackass, and even Britney Spears have contributed to the marketplace for this niche' of absurdist behavior. Salvador Dali, who when asked about his views on hallucinogens, said, "Take me, I am the drug; take me, I am hallucinogenic." and Andy Kaufman who religiously attempted to overthrow any convention he could find, are just two in a series of so-called "mooks" that tease swathes of populations across commonly accepted, psycho-graphically quantifiable, social conventions.

 

Such behavior can be seen in the internet troll who offers an opinion he or she knows to be controversial - in the obvious and less skilled version of the creature - and seduces a rousing discussion by masking his intention with less obvious subject matter - although a subject matter very much subject to dispute.

[Steve Force]

Wewus, is that you?

[DeepEddieZilker]

Wewus, is that you?

 

If the question is directed at me? No.

 

I had to Google Wewus to find out who you may be referring to. Apparently, he or she did their level best when it came to provoking controversy.

[delirium]

the question is where are the boundaries of good taste, and we all know there is no such thing in America like taste so that's the reason movies like that or e.g. Larry Health Inspector are made.

If they did movie about somebody sh*t on someone's grave, it would be still funny for some, because big screen it's an authority for many people. (they even tell you sometimes when to laugh)

 

[DeepEddieZilker]

the question is where are the boundaries of good taste, and we all know there is no such thing in America like taste so that's the reason movies like that or e.g. Larry Health Inspector are made.

If they did movie about somebody sh*t on someone's grave, it would be still funny for some, because big screen it's an authority for many people.

 

I sort of agree with you...

 

 

Is MTV dumbing America down with mind-numbing debauchery? No more than Fox, CNN, MSNBC, et al. There is no doubt that people, in both America and elsewhere, subscribe to puerile entertainment. I needn't say more with the mention of Jerry Springer than to compare him to his Mexican TV counterpart, Laura. YouTube offers one more place where ANYONE can slap together their own tribute to poor taste - and it sometimes winds up on the evening news.

 

Being an American, however, I will say that while one, such as John Waters, may, in fact, film a defecation onto/into the grave of another, and may, in fact, sell the piece to Americans for $8.00 a ticket at their local theater, that such a venture is rare compared to the body of works that aren't meant to offend.

 

It is a bit of a generalization to state that poor taste only manifests itself in America. Simon Cowell, who's American Idol is certainly entertaining, has a blunt and sadistic way with words and while some may try to brush the nature of his wit aside as paltry entertainment, it nevertheless is meant, very much, to offend its target along with the masses who groan in protest every one of his utterances on a weekly basis. Don't forget that he was imported from England, however.

 

I'm sure this thread could turn into an entertaining discussion on American poor taste along with American ethnocentrism - that condemns anything offensive to it as that which is in poor taste - but we're discussing culture and while Claude Debussy may be spoken of in high society circles in the Western World, in China, he was looked down upon for his style of music as it encouraged undesirable thinking. Thought reformers in China were more keen on Chinese minimalist folk music which inspired a common identity without giving "queer thoughts and funny ideas"* to its listener.

 

The bottom line, for me, is that there is truth to the old saying, "there is no accounting for taste." Mandating someone else's taste is about the most tasteless (in a very stifling sort of way) thing to do.

 

*Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism, Robert Jay Lifton, p. 345, Chapel Hill 1989

[bloodyMary]

I thought it was simultaneously stupid and brilliant. Stupid in a good way though - I can't really explain that....

 

Kevin: No need to explain. I totally get this and agree!

 

Oh, and the song "throw the jew down the well.." is awesome.

- I'm a jew myself.

 

It's the same fear I have about guys like Howard Stern: Some people just don't get it. So, instead of seeing a song like "Throw The Jew Down The Well" as satirical comedy, they'll just pick up the "hate" in the lyrics and run with it. Clearly, the danger of this approach can't be lost on a guy like Sasha Baron Cohen (since exposing the biases and prejudices of certain people is essentially the point of his movie), but I bet it eats at him a bit that he could actually be contributing to things like anti-semitism instead of helping to end it.

 

(I hope this isn't turning too political. If so, I'll shut up.)

 

Noah

 

 

 

I don't know who can take this character (and his anti-semitism, sexism, etc) seriously. IMHO even a complete moron would understand that Borat isn't real and he didn't actually mean what he sang..

 

Oh, there's another great song in the movie, the national anthem - 'Kazachstan-number-one exporter of potasium..All the other countries are run by little girs.."

[richwhite9]

Vaudeville and The Three Stooges weren't all that much more sophisticated than MTV.

 

Don Rickles and many stand-ups were just as pointed as Cowell or Anne Robinson or 'others that hurt'.

 

Things are more sexually explicit these days. Get into the history of carnivals, freekshows, and other forms of pre-radio entertainment and then talk about crass and 'stereotypes' and dumbing down.

 

Maybe watch Tod Browning's 'Freaks' or 'Wellville' the fine Kellog story featuring Dana Carvey.

 

Borat tries to have it both ways and can't. People were set up during the filming and some of the are stereotypes politically incorrect and designed to provoke laughter based on ridicule. It's a problem w/ reality scripted shows in general IMHO.

 

[zephonic]

Vaudeville and The Three Stooges weren't all that much more sophisticated than MTV.

 

Don Rickles and many stand-ups were just as pointed as Cowell or Anne Robinson or 'others that hurt'.

 

Things are more sexually explicit these days. Get into the history of carnivals, freekshows, and other forms of pre-radio entertainment and then talk about crass and 'stereotypes' and dumbing down.

 

Maybe watch Tod Browning's 'Freaks' or 'Wellville' the fine Kellog story featuring Dana Carvey.

 

Borat tries to have it both ways and can't. People were set up during the filming and some of the are stereotypes politically incorrect and designed to provoke laughter based on ridicule. It's a problem w/ reality scripted shows in general IMHO.

 

+1

 

[Steve Force]

It was a movie. Get over it.

[orangefunk]

Its so lovely to know the moral brigade are alive and well.. where would we be without them...

[Gulliver]

I think I need to see this film...

[DeepEddieZilker]

Vaudeville and The Three Stooges weren't all that much more sophisticated than MTV.

 

Don Rickles and many stand-ups were just as pointed as Cowell or Anne Robinson or 'others that hurt'.

 

Things are more sexually explicit these days. Get into the history of carnivals, freekshows, and other forms of pre-radio entertainment and then talk about crass and 'stereotypes' and dumbing down.

 

Maybe watch Tod Browning's 'Freaks' or 'Wellville' the fine Kellog story featuring Dana Carvey.

 

Borat tries to have it both ways and can't. People were set up during the filming and some of the are stereotypes politically incorrect and designed to provoke laughter based on ridicule. It's a problem w/ reality scripted shows in general IMHO.

 

Points noted, however, in my post I was asserting (or attempting to assert) that poor taste isn't unique to America - not insinuating that poor taste is (or is not) unique to the current generation of tweens to twenty-somethings who perpetuate endless drivel with their seemingly bottomless disposable revenue.

 

Ergo, I'll see your three-stooges and raise you a Benny Hill. :wink:

[delirium]

Ergo, I'll see your three-stooges and raise you a Benny Hill. :wink:

 

come on...

http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/MMPH/263468~Benny-Hill-Posters.jpg

[Jeff Klopmeyer]

I have no personal commentary on the movie, but I had an interesting experience as a result.

 

Went into the coffee place awhile after Borat was out, and the gal behind the counter said, "Have you seen that Borat movie?"

 

I replied that I had.

 

She said, "I can't believe they let him say all those terrible things about Jews and such!"

 

I said, "Well, you know, it was satire."

 

"What?"

 

"Satire," I said. "You know, when someone uses heavy sarcasm or irony. They make fun of something by acting like it."

 

(blank stare)

 

I continued, "So, using your example, the guy playing Borat is an orthodox Jew. He doesn't actually hate Jewish people. He's pointing out other people's acceptance of hatred by acting that way."

 

(continued blank stare)

 

"I'll just have a large latte, please."

[delirium]

I have no personal commentary on the movie, but I had an interesting experience as a result.

 

Went into the coffee place awhile after Borat was out, and the gal behind the counter said, "Have you seen that Borat movie?"

 

I replied that I had.

 

She said, "I can't believe they let him say all those terrible things about Jews and such!"

 

I said, "Well, you know, it was satire."

 

"What?"

 

"Satire," I said. "You know, when someone uses heavy sarcasm or irony. They make fun of something by acting like it."

 

(blank stare)

 

I continued, "So, using your example, the guy playing Borat is an orthodox Jew. He doesn't actually hate Jewish people. He's pointing out other people's acceptance of hatred by acting that way."

 

(continued blank stare)

 

"I'll just have a large latte, please."

 

where did you have that coffee, in Ohio? :grin:

 

[Jeff Klopmeyer]

where did you have that coffee, in Ohio? :grin:

 

 

Sadly, here in the Los Angeles area. Lack of education/enlightenment knows no geographic boundaries.