Live and let live...

[linwood]

Yea, kind of funny huh, musicworkz. With a tune like this, if you leave out the loop, the song suffers, so you use it in this case. You still play your ass off on your axe when you need to. Makes sense. Pat gets it.

[MusicWorkz]

You're correct Linwood. Could they have done the song without it? Of course! But in this example, the loop was used in conjunction with the musicians to establish the groove of the song. It helped the other musicians lock in the feel that Pat wanted so he could do his thing (and the other musicians, too) . I can't see how this was less a live performance than if he didn't use it at all.

[linwood]

Yea, loose the reverse reverb on that clap and the groove is done.

 

 

http://youtube.com/watch?v=n1cQ4n0YJj8&feature=related

 

 

http://youtube.com/watch?v=oHR066_WpgY

 

[Tonysounds]

"For her NOT using the backing material is a compromised sound.

But someone wants to employ the same approach at $100/night gig and it's somehow not legit."

 

Busch.

 

The Pat Metheny clip was nice. But disturbing.

[Tonysounds]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=n1cQ4n0YJj8&feature=related

 

Pat Metheny does Blue Man Group!

[linwood]

I always love Pats group no matter who's playing or what the instrumentation is. He's one of my favs. Has been for 30 years or so. Lotta other great musicians that use loops live, that are kind of hard to argue with. Like, Chick. Ever see the Electric Band? And speaking of the Blue Man Group, CC's son plays the drum chair here the last time I talked to him. Not an easy chair to play, btw.

[MusicWorkz]

Linwood, I haven't listened to PM for a minute...thanks for these great clips...

[linwood]

MusicWorkz.....get off the computer right now and go buy the We Live Here and also The Way Up dvd's. Eye opening.... Order the score to TWU.

 

 

http://www.apple.com/quicktime/guide/hd/pmg.html

 

[Cliffk]

If pressed, I'll distinguish between performing music and performing with music. The former may include support from backing tracks or be done completely live but, for me, the key performance - the one which the audience is paying most attention to - would have to be done in real time. By this I mean that if the key performer/s stopped, there'd be a significant and detrimental hole in the musical performance.

 

With the latter, wholly 'staged' performances i.e. singers lip-synching and instrumentalists playing with no cables (not acoustic) come to mind. And this makes me uncomfortable for some reason, though I'll take it for what it is, if it's done that way e.g. Janet dancing through a dance number, with lip-synching an obvious but secondary consideration - here, she knows the audience knows she knows they know etc. etc. I do understand the occasional expediency of such performances - just not when my musical favourites surprise me this way...

 

So yes, completely live playing is great, but if backing tracks augment and thereby improve the overall key live performances, I don't sweat it. Just don't give me a singer who lip-synchs and lies about it.

[Strategery]

+1

 

:blah:

Milli - Vanilli

 

 

Randy

[David Loving]

I'm going to order some Jamie Abersold [music minus one] cd's and take my Bose cd player, Roland amp and Yamaha cp33 and start doing jazz gigs at local hotels. I won't have to split the money!

[Strategery]

Dewd...that sounds Righteous!!

 

http://www.survivinggrady.com/spicoli.jpg

[linwood]

I'm going to order some Jamie Abersold [music minus one] cd's and take my Bose cd player, Roland amp and Yamaha cp33 and start doing jazz gigs at local hotels. I won't have to split the money!

 

Hey daviel, check this guy out. This is really bad. I had to recreate the music to Green Acres for some ad agency months ago, so I wanted to get a copy of the original to do the take down. I went to iTunes and searched and came up with this. This guy put out a cd that you can buy where he just sings over the top of the original track. He didn't even take Eddie Albert out of the mix and just sang over it and printed it and is selling it. Too funny! (you might need iTunes installed to get this) Dig the title.

 

http://phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewAlbum?playlistId=28050584&s=143441&i=28050556

 

[David Loving]

LOL! Holy smokes! That guy will keep me off the jogging trails. Maybe I better re-think my J. Aebersold idea - I'd probably end up the jazz version of Vizzie

;-(

Incidently, Linwood, thank you for the most excellent PM utube link; I am missing the Kansas/Missouri game 'cause I can't stop listening to him.

[linwood]

Vic actually scored Green Acres and a bunch of other tv shows and films. He's a great composer. I just thought it was funny when I heard that cut with him singing over top of the lead and is selling it like that. Talk about using tracks.

[DonaldM]

Well, you guys certainly made this a fun discussion. Thx!

[BluesKeys]

I think that sequenced/canned music is a tool. I have heard it used well and poorly. Even the best bands out there sound a little sterile or even boring when they rely on sequences to pull off songs. I find that it takes away from the musicians abilities when they are concentrating on playing with a track. Drummers are the ones responsible for making the tracks work so I have often found that the drummer is holding back and his fills are lacking punch because he is making sure he stays with the click track.

 

Music to me should flow... and although we all want a drummer with a perfect clock we also like the freedom to kick a song up a notch when all is working right. You just can't do that with a track. If we wanted a drum machine we could have used that instead.

[bloodyMary]

I went to a heavy metal show recently, a very famous (worldwide) band. They used pre-recorded tracks for every tune of the show, I saw a huge digital console system - a digital mixer with proTools or something like that. Still, there were 5 people on stage - a great guitarist, singing bassist, drummer, keyboard player (BTW, he also had two Korg Karma's onstage, so maybe some KARMA involved too), and hot chick singer. Wow, what a prefomance! Definately, best live show I ever saw, so powerful it blew me away.

 

So what they didn't bring 60-piece orchestra with them? Who can afford to take 80 people on tour nowdays? They could take three-four keyboard players instead, but they'd be behind racks of gear anyway, not in the spotlight, so it wouldn't affect the impact too much.

 

 

I think, it takes extra degree of skill to be able to play to a sequence, both production and musical skill. You need to play to click, there's no room for error. Also, much more gear involved, many times - digital (read=dengerously unstable). Also, you have to hire two more people to operate it, and train them too.

 

 

Personally, I admire the band not only for their performing skills - the playing, stage charisma, etc, but also for ability to make a five-piece act sound bigger than life (read=integrate newest technology into live act), so huge you can't believe it's true.

[Prague]

I think, it takes extra degree of skill to be able to play to a sequence, both production and musical skill.

It does? I played along with tracks (LPs) when I was very unskilled. It's quite easy. Holding a band together is much more difficult.

 

Personally, I admire the band ... for ability to make a five-piece act sound bigger than life (read=integrate newest technology into live act), so huge you can't believe it's true.

That's because it isn't true.

[keysplease]

When I hear cover bands and the keyboard player is doing the brass and string parts they are almost always lacking, but it's not so much an issue of the sound as the articulation. Listen to sequences done on high-end arranger keyboards and they sound infinitely better.

 

I prefer someone playing strings, etc., manually, as opposed to the cheese of the arranger keyboard. But that's just my opinion.

[GovernorSilver]

This is a better example, imo, of Pat Metheny Group using sequencers live:

 

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=7sWVm7Nfw_Q

 

There's no techno feel or straight rock feel - the band plays along with the "fake" horn section with the kind of time and virtuosity most of us can only dream of.

[ITGITC]

This is a better example, imo, of Pat Metheny Group using sequencers live:

 

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=7sWVm7Nfw_Q

 

There's no techno feel or straight rock feel - the band plays along with the "fake" horn section with the kind of time and virtuosity most of us can only dream of.

 

Yeah.

 

Now that's what I'm talkin' about.

 

You've got to look at the individual piece of music before you complete your judgement regarding the use of sequencers in a live performance.

 

To my ears, that was really nice.

 

Of course, I'm biased. Pat is at the top of my list anyway.

[Tusker]

Anyone who makes a gross generalization is a complete idiot.

 

LOL.

 

Badda-bing.

[David Loving]

Thumbs up for PM.

[DanS]

I trigger sound effects and the odd short loop live, just for fun.

We do play GM's Freedom, and play along to the percussion loop I sampled off the CD, from start to finish. It's instantly recognizable, and we focus on the vocals in that song anyway.

No one in the audience has ever complained......

[Andre Lower]

Tom, I make your words mine. Looks like everyone is focusing in ruling whether the perfornace SHOULD be RANKED as live or not, when in fact the quality of the musical result floats high above this question. I do respect people's chops for what they are, but there are so many cases of people sporting phenomenal chops who don`t shake my tree that it's not even worth mentioning.

 

This is a better example, imo, of Pat Metheny Group using sequencers live:

 

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=7sWVm7Nfw_Q

 

There's no techno feel or straight rock feel - the band plays along with the "fake" horn section with the kind of time and virtuosity most of us can only dream of.

 

Yeah.

 

Now that's what I'm talkin' about.

 

You've got to look at the individual piece of music before you complete your judgement regarding the use of sequencers in a live performance.

 

To my ears, that was really nice.

 

Of course, I'm biased. Pat is at the top of my list anyway.

[David Loving]

That's true, it is the musical result that really matters.

[DonaldM]

That's true, it is the musical result that really matters.

 

This is pretty much where I'm at, too. As I said earlier in this discussion, I view all this gear, including loops, sequencers and arps as additional musical instruments that need to be played as much as any other musical instrument. Played with skill, one can create a truly awesome musical experience for everyone. Played poorly, and, well...poor is poor.

 

I once saw guitarist Phil Keaggy in concert. He used his acoustic guitar plugged into to some effects box or other (Jazzman, I think its called). Live on stage he began a rhythmic pattern that he instantly looped in the box, let that loop run and added additional licks...all while singing his lyrics and building the song. By the time he was done he had about 5-6 "tracks" going at once and never missed a note or a beat. It was amazing to watch. He played the "box" with as much skill as he played the guitar.

 

Oh, and he changed tunings on his guitar mid-song too. Amazing!!

 

 

[DanS]

This is a better example, imo, of Pat Metheny Group using sequencers live:

 

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=7sWVm7Nfw_Q

 

There's no techno feel or straight rock feel - the band plays along with the "fake" horn section with the kind of time and virtuosity most of us can only dream of.

 

That's cool, I was at that show. I remember dark rain clouds hovering over 100,000 people all night, but not a drop fell till after the show.

[GovernorSilver]

Metheny and Mays have been consistent in their remarks over the years about gear - it is important to use that gear well, if it is used at all. That's why Mays rarely solos on synths - he'll only do it if the music calls for it.

 

I still don't get how Mays did all his parts for "Imaginary Day" live, in which he played simultaneous synth parts and had whistling sounds and other effects all going at once. Then, I gave up trying to understand and just appreciated his mastery of his gear.