Edgar Summers Posted April 19, 2007 Share Posted April 19, 2007 To my keyboard brethren: This may be a bit long, so please bear with me. I live about 100 miles south of Las Vegas in a small desert community in Arizona. Several years ago I relocated here from Los Angeles, mainly so I could buy a house. Shortly before moving into my new place I found an older baby grand (I later found a date inside from the 1930's-so pretty old!) in a local music store that to my ears played pretty well and seemed like a really good buy at $2500. Now this store was owned by a family that has several stores in the LA area and I had dealt with them in the past, so I felt pretty confident buying this piano. One detail for later is that I dealt with a salesman (not the owner)who made a couple of implied promises that didn't come to pass. So after years and years of apartment living I was finally gonna have my own piano to play in my own place! I was very happy. I vowed to play a lot of classical music and improve my chops . The grand was the FIRST thing I ever put in that house and all was well for 6 months or so. I then noticed it seemed to be getting not just a bit out of tune but noticeably BAD! Also the pedals needed some work. The bolts holding them to the piano were pulling out. The store owner is a piano tech, but he spends a lot of time in California, so it took me 3 more months to get him out to tune the piano. A couple of things bothered me. I was under the impression he was going to come out shortly after my purchase to tune the piano and set it up properly after delivery. Anyway he tunes the piano, charges me $75, and tells me the pedal repair will cost an additional $200. I told him what his salesman had said and he replied that given the great price I'd paid for the piano he couldn't include any "free" service. Feeling screwed, I just decided to find someone else to eventually fixed the pedal problem and just not deal with this jerk again. Within 30 days the pian was out of tune AGAIN!! It took me a long time to locate another tech. There's only one between here and Vegas and he was hard to find. The new tech came to the house and told me within 10 minutes the pins where loose in the block and that the piano had been very badly repaired (almost certainly by the owner of the store_he was VERY familiar with this guy!) with little pieces of sandpaper to hold the pins in place. I've been told repairing this is fairly expensive and that he wasn't real sure how well it would turn out. I had the impression he didn't think it was worth doing. So anyway I don't know where to go with this. I'm considering just giving it away 'cause I don't know what kind of money it would take to make it playable, and I sure don't want to screw someone else. Any ideas? Help! "Music should never be harmless." Robbie Robertson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzwee Posted April 19, 2007 Share Posted April 19, 2007 This is the problem with older pianos and it's usually not advised to get one this old unless it's a Steinway or Mason & Hamlin. The Pinblock is shot. There are some things that can be done if the pinblock has not been touched before and that is to put larger pins in. But that's a lot of labor cost unless you do it yourself. If the pins have already been enlarged, that's pretty much the end of the story. Hamburg Steinway O, Crumar Mojo, Nord Electro 4 HP 73, EV ZXA1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluesKeys Posted April 19, 2007 Share Posted April 19, 2007 Edgar , man I hate to hear you are having problems with your grand. I know how long I waited to get a grand and what a joy it is when it's in tune and sounding sweet. I feel your pain.... I am not a tech, but I was playing a 45" studio piano in a bar the owner had bought from the same kind of shyster. Piano man said oh I'll make it right and comes over and sprays what looks to me like lacquer all over the pin block. I start playing and it immediately goes out of tune. I start to tweak it a bit and the pin doesn't want to move at all. It's like he glued it into place. So the bar owner calls the piano man back and says I want you to make this right and the piano man says well for $$ extra we'll put another piano in there. Sorry I am not much help. Jimmy Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others. Groucho NEW BAND CHECK THEM OUT www.steveowensandsummertime.com www.jimmyweaver.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tarkus Posted April 19, 2007 Share Posted April 19, 2007 Sorry to hear about this. Similar situation: My family had a Kranich & Bach player-piano (a baby grand) complete with real ivory keys and air driven guts. The piano is easily 80 years old. In recent years, my mother had contacted a piano collector who said he could "re-furbish" the piano to good working order. My mother was thrilled - I figured my sisters' had don the due-dilligence on the repair-man and it seemed like a good thing to do (all though the cost estimate was steep). The piano was dismantled and packed up by a pro-mover and sent to the shop. Many months and inquiries later - the repairman said he needed more time and money. Also the mechanical parts were so outdated, he would need to "fabricate them" for function and authenticity. His new estimate for fabrication was ridiculously expensive. As an alternative my mother said she'd rather have the piano playable and at least refinished for looks - she no longer had piano rolls to play and figured this the better option. One year and a few months later the piano is returned. It was beautifully refinished - new soundboard - replaced pins and new keys.... The "repairman" had removed the ivory keys and replaced them with horrible plastic keys. The key-bed was spongy. The player-mechanism had been entirely removed and any valuable furniture (heavy brass pedals, brass parts etc...) had been swapped for cheap imitations. The hidden drawers had been sealed shut and whatever historic or antique value this piano had, was gone forever. The piano is unplayable, untunable (as determined by the last real-pro to service it), but a very good looking piece of furniture. I contacted the "repairman". "You should give us our money back, or make this thing playable." He said: "I did what I was contracted to do." After having an attorney contact him, he skipped town. Rather than go through the expensive heart-ache and maintenance head-aches, drop in a modern electronic keyboard: a poor man's GEM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
born2die Posted April 19, 2007 Share Posted April 19, 2007 you could always try posting on www.pianoworld.com/ubb/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi these are specific piano forums and I have found very helpful in the past regards tris http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m316/born2die75/roland_junogsiggy_dw.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrafon Posted April 19, 2007 Share Posted April 19, 2007 One detail for later is that I dealt with a salesman (not the owner)who made a couple of implied promises that didn't come to pass. What do you mean by "implied promises"? Depending on your answer, that may be your legal grounds as against the seller (breach of warranty?). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgar Summers Posted April 19, 2007 Author Share Posted April 19, 2007 One detail for later is that I dealt with a salesman (not the owner)who made a couple of implied promises that didn't come to pass. What do you mean by "implied promises"? Depending on your answer, that may be your legal grounds as against the seller (breach of warranty?). The salesman said HE thought the guy would tune the piano for me. The big problem with all of this is that the store has been closed for at least 6 months. I haven't seen the salemans in almost two years. I don't know what happened to the store. Thanks for the other post everyone. All I can say is that I guess I'll be a lot more educated about any future piano purchases. "Music should never be harmless." Robbie Robertson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Song80s Posted April 19, 2007 Share Posted April 19, 2007 get rid of it, ASAP consider it a lesson learned Why fit in, when you were born to stand out ? My Soundcloud with many originals: [70's Songwriter] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrafon Posted April 19, 2007 Share Posted April 19, 2007 In light of that situation, probably more hassle than it's worth. Sorry to hear this happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delirium Posted April 19, 2007 Share Posted April 19, 2007 I don't think it's worthy to do anything with it. I had once such piano long time ago which I had to tune every month but I couldn't afford another at that time so I kept tuning it. It's not worthy, use it in your fire place, sorry. http://growabrain.typepad.com/growabrain/images/burning_piano.jpg ♫♫♫ motif XS6, RD700GX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lerber3 Posted April 19, 2007 Share Posted April 19, 2007 If you don't have effective humidity control, Arid-zona will suck the life out of your piano, pronto. When the wood dries out, it shrinks... pin block becomes loose, strings go flat. If the piano is a keeper, perhaps consider installing a humidity control device. This seems to be the device that comes up the most if you google: http://www.dampp-chaser.com/ Luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgar Summers Posted April 19, 2007 Author Share Posted April 19, 2007 I don't thing it's worthy to do anything with it. I had once such piano long time ago which I had to tune every month but I couldn't afford another at that time so I kept tuning it. It's not worthy, use it in your fire place, sorry. http://growabrain.typepad.com/growabrain/images/burning_piano.jpg I think you're probably right. Noone else needs this problem That pix made me laugh "Music should never be harmless." Robbie Robertson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mate stubb Posted April 19, 2007 Share Posted April 19, 2007 1. Build a large trebuchet. 2. Adjust your attitude using substance of choice. 3. Hurl piano. Moe --- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leberwurst Posted April 19, 2007 Share Posted April 19, 2007 1. Build a large trebuchet. 2. Adjust your attitude using substance of choice. 3. Hurl piano. he might want to adjust it to the music store... some kind of individual retouré The Dromb Bopper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thanksforhelpethan Posted April 19, 2007 Share Posted April 19, 2007 or the former owner of the stores car will make a good target. But ya I am glad I read this guys. I plan on moving out into a much bigger house early next year, and when I do I will build a way bigger better studio then I got at this dump. Inside that sweet studio will be a grand or baby grand and now I know to buy carefully. Seems not all Grands are created equal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzwee Posted April 19, 2007 Share Posted April 19, 2007 Actually, you can use the piano to practice your technique. So what if it's not in tune. At least the action is a grand piano action. Then do your REAL playing on a digital. Sorry about your grief Edgar, but at least this will give it a purpose for existence other than for firewood. I'm sure it is decorative as well. Hamburg Steinway O, Crumar Mojo, Nord Electro 4 HP 73, EV ZXA1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgar Summers Posted April 19, 2007 Author Share Posted April 19, 2007 Actually, you can use the piano to practice your technique. So what if it's not in tune. At least the action is a grand piano action. Then do your REAL playing on a digital. Sorry about your grief Edgar, but at least this will give it a purpose for existence other than for firewood. I'm sure it is decorative as well. http://upstagereview.org/MusicGraphics/broken%20piano%20keys.jpg It is pretty "Music should never be harmless." Robbie Robertson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thanksforhelpethan Posted April 19, 2007 Share Posted April 19, 2007 hahahahahahhahhahahahahhahahahahahahahah thats not really it is it? hahahahahahahah If it is i will go help you hunt down the store owner guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzwee Posted April 19, 2007 Share Posted April 19, 2007 Edgar, that picture is like a horror movie to me I'm going to have bad dreams... I'm hunting down a grand myself so I'm going to be extra careful Hamburg Steinway O, Crumar Mojo, Nord Electro 4 HP 73, EV ZXA1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finale Posted April 19, 2007 Share Posted April 19, 2007 Well, there's worse. http://stuff.oscarperezmusic.com/front_page/Broken_Piano.jpeg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AUSSIEKEYS Posted April 19, 2007 Share Posted April 19, 2007 Hi Edgar We feel for you...and it is hard now to sell it on knowing its problems...isn't it.Just be honest with the buyer..tell them it needs work in such and such areas.That way you clear your consceince. In regards what else you can do with it..[if I may be so bold as to make a joke at your expense?] Being that you live in an American Desert town...perhaps you could stick it on the roof of your house with a manequine playing it. And have old uprights around the yard made into reptile enclosures and open the place up as one of those exciting American truck/tourist stops we see on TV over here all the time. Sorry see how TV stereo types locations. We had the other experience. Dad visited a well known local piano Identity who had a high profile piano business advertised on TV. Many people considered him a shyster or showoff,this could be further from the truth for us. My dad spied a well knocked about Yamaha baby grande,cosmetically a mess,it had been used/abused in Redfern RSL a well known venue,it had stiletto marks on the top,scratches,bangs,gouges,all over it but mainly concentrated up front...in fact I'd say in the shop everyone steered clear of it. Dad purchased it for a very cheap $2000 i think...we got it home,dad did a quick touch up of the body [this was purely to get it neat for the house,but not a refurbishment as this was to be his music room piano not furniture..we have a beautiful beale for furniture..tee hee.] The yamaha has never needed repairs other than tuning and periodic string replacement due to dad's singing exersises and his unfortunate heavyhanded single note use when pitching...now he replaces his own strings and I have told him not to be so agressive on single notes and rarely breaks strings. I use this piano as my bench mark to what I like including digitals...if it feels like the yammy its my kind of keyboard. Regards the beautiful looking Beale..even though it had the keyboard fully refurbished it is a dull sounding and sluggish keyboard compared to the Yammaha. I'll go for a beat up Yamaha any day. i also bought a new Yamaha boomchikka keyboard off this guy to put ontop of my synth..used it for a year or so and sold it for $5 more than I paid..his prices were that cheap...and not bad thing can we say about him. after all this I gotta have a moral to this...ummm...all those dealers that have been said to be shysters are indeed not tared with the same brush...but this doesnt help your feelings. Yes we feel for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Bennett Posted April 20, 2007 Share Posted April 20, 2007 What a waste to burn a piano while not playing it at the same time. I want a flaming piano for one of our next cd covers. We almost had my friends wifes piano lined up but she was to darn attached. Keep in mind that they have a 4 year old calendar on the wall..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mate stubb Posted April 20, 2007 Share Posted April 20, 2007 Trebuchet hurling piano: http://www.fitz-claridge.com/Trebuchet/piano.html Moe --- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobadohshe Posted April 20, 2007 Share Posted April 20, 2007 http://upstagereview.org/MusicGraphics/broken%20piano%20keys.jpg[/img] It is pretty Pictures like this might seem artistic to some people, but they just make me feel gross and want to wash my hands. How could an instrument come to this state of being? Kawai C-60 Grand Piano : Hammond A-100 : Hammond SK2 : Yamaha CP4 : Yamaha Montage 7 : Moog Sub 37 My latest album: Funky organ, huge horn section https://bobbycressey.bandcamp.com/album/cali-native Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wmp Posted April 20, 2007 Share Posted April 20, 2007 Edgar, this breaks my heart. You too, tarkus. I'm afraid that everybody here has given you the good information and the bad news. With the possible exception of garrafon, who seems a little optimistic about you prevailing and collecting in a legal action. The lesson here is to shop for a piano tech before you shop for a piano. New, used, rebuilt or whatever. There are a lot of good folks who deal in pianos, but there are also a lot of crooks. The only people who really know the difference are the tuners who owe no loyalty to any of them. Of the excellent advice given here, I'm particularly fond of the trebuchet suggestion. Mayhem upon the perp is always appealing too. --wmp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzwee Posted April 20, 2007 Share Posted April 20, 2007 http://www.originalpianobar.com/ This one is a nice transformation to an old piano. Hamburg Steinway O, Crumar Mojo, Nord Electro 4 HP 73, EV ZXA1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tarkus Posted April 20, 2007 Share Posted April 20, 2007 http://www.sabbathlive.com/articles/caljam/740406-Keith%20Emerson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delirium Posted April 20, 2007 Share Posted April 20, 2007 http://www.originalpianobar.com/ This one is a nice transformation to an old piano. what a great idea, when you need a buzz you can always say to your wife, "honey, I'm going downstairs play piano a little" http://www.originalpianobar.com/_photos/banner_24.jpg ♫♫♫ motif XS6, RD700GX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Nightime Posted April 20, 2007 Share Posted April 20, 2007 I remember watching that when California Jam aired. Holy S*** "In the beginning, Adam had the blues, 'cause he was lonesome. So God helped him and created woman. Now everybody's got the blues." Willie Dixon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzwee Posted April 20, 2007 Share Posted April 20, 2007 There was also some old thread about putting digitals into a grand case, ala Elton. Hamburg Steinway O, Crumar Mojo, Nord Electro 4 HP 73, EV ZXA1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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