DeltaJockey

February 10

9 hours ago, Motif88 said:

Is 30lbs too heavy? If not, have you considered the Native Instruments Kontrol S88 Mk3?

88 weighted keys with poly aftertouch and less than half the weight of the M8x.

Thanks, but it's not about the weight, I have enough 88's already. You're missing my point and I wasn't open to looking for an unknown candidate. The Keystage appealed to me for a smallish 61 which I could virtually throw in a bag, along with my laptop and headphones, and have very portable functionality of my studio rig on the go. The PAT, built in audio, rack for the laptop and small form factor all were what I was interested in. I used to have a NI61 Mark 2. I sold it because among other things, it was a bit too large for 61 keys on the go. None of the Mark 3's have a built in audio interface, and are too big as well.

Anyway, I'm guessing without response it's not in the sphere of anyone to have had any experience with it, and probably not a question that's in the same universe as folk on here.

February 10

4 minutes ago, Analogaddict said:

Ok, my 2015 MBP with 8GB RAM is not enough to run this… at a buffer of 256 I’m hitting the ceiling as soon as I start layering things - oddly enough, the AWM parts are the problem. Layering multiple instances of FM X and AN X is ok though. 8 parts of FM and AN gives me approximately 70% while two layered pianos + a string pad sends me well over 100%. I need a more modern computer for this. I want to 100% clone my Montage M for flying and such, so I only need one instance running.

Have you set the Lite mode in the utility? Even my 2021 M1 Pro Macbook stutters in full mode with some multi layers and lots of notes. But a more powerful computer on the whole will allow you to do what you want to do. I would hope that with further updates they may improve the resource efficiency.

February 10

As the Montage M ESP is untethered to the hardware, I was thinking of a small controller which would match functionality when out and about.

The Korg Keystage looks interesting, as the PAT would allow control of those patches without my M8x. I know at this stage from what I understand, the Montage does not support MIDI2.0 (yet?), but I suppose it's not out of the realm of possibility that they may add it in a future firmware upgrade. Especially when my GEX action may have updates to possibly support some sort of MPE functionality too? Here's hoping.

Anyway, I'm a bit reluctant to spend out on the Keystage without knowing that the keybed is at least acceptable for a cheapish synth action.

Does anyone have one yet, or any experience on how noisy it is, and how it feels? In comparison to other synth actions with good reputation that I know?

I also have a Nektar GXP61, which I bought for its alleged expression for piano plugins. It doesn't disappoint there, but the key slap when playing it is just unacceptable, even with headphones on, so I've given up on that!

I used to have a Hydrasynth, and thought it's polytouch keybed was ok. Just ok. I have a Novation summit which in my opinion feels a bit better, so if the keystage was at least the same as the Hydrasynth but ideally as good as the Summit in feel and noise, I'd be pretty happy. I live a long way from the nearest store to try one, and I'm getting a bit over buying stuff online only to find it not as good as I thought, and the hassle of trying to ship it back, or sell it off.

The online reviews are not objective or trustworthy enough for me.

I've also read that the USB audio interface is a bit ordinary too. I know it's only 44/16, and that's ok for just noodling, but I'm more concerned over the component quality not being as good, meaning the noise floor and distortion causes it to lack sparkle.

It's not a cheap controller, so I do have a minimum expectation for that price.

Any thoughts would be appreciated 😀

February 8

8 hours ago, Mighty Motif Max said:

I think what Theo meant is how identical they actually sound. As in, if you reversed the phase of the E.S.P. software and routed the audio through the USB input (to use the same output converters in the Montage M), would the two cancel each other out perfectly when set to the same patch?

Oh.....I just realized Theo was being literal! (As I smack myself on the forehead Sorry to sound like a broken record, so we're talking about actual waveform cancellation! Yes, or course that in theory would confirm. To actually do it in practice in the digital domain may be a challenge. Knowing nothing about the Yamaha digital format, and my digitaI processing knowledge is getting a bit long in the tooth but I would assume there's pcm interleaving, parity and all sorts of error checking, along with jitter management etc. You'd have to make sure you had rock solid clock syncing, so you'd have to line all that up if it's possible. But, I suppose the most practical way would be to capture it straight out of the DAC.

The way I'm comparing them now, they are both being generated digitally, and both ending up converted to analog through the same onboard Montage DAC to the speakers.

Comparing them with my mortal ears back to back, they certainly sound identical to me.

Perhaps a quick and dirty would be to take a few cycles of one of the raw ANx sinewave waveforms, with no effects processing from hardware and software and then import into a sample editor, invert one and see what you come up with? Not sure whether you could pin down any other system differences that could affect the result.

I guess, with a bit of thought, some creative thinking could devise a smart way of comparing them successfully.

The only other thing I might look into, is to mix the hardware audio in on the DAW, and the ESP audio, with a waveform inverter plugin, then mix them out to audio, and see if I get anything but a distorted mess👍

I'm sure someone else may have an even better idea. (Ideas and suggestions are always the easy part) 🥴

Also as I have commented in the thread way back, and as Scott has also said above, using ESP on other USB audio interfaces will render the output only as good as the hardware you are using. I have listened to ESP from my laptop through my RD88 and Numa X GT audio interfaces, along with a couple of standalone DAC's. While it sounds very good, and at least as good as any of my other vst's, the Montage M DAC has a noticeable improvement of whatever sound comes through it. In particular, sound field imaging and phase distortion. It all just sounds smoother, and with better imaging. The Montage M DAC is the best audio interface I now have.

February 8

1 hour ago, Mighty Motif Max said:

I think what Theo meant is how identical they actually sound. As in, if you reversed the phase of the E.S.P. software and routed the audio through the USB input (to use the same output converters in the Montage M), would the two cancel each other out perfectly when set to the same patch?

In a roundabout way, I did think he might have meant that. I find it hard to imagine it is sounding different. I already play the ESP plugin via the hardware Montage USB audio ,and out through the Montages DAC's. That's how I actually have my gear hooked up, because I play the Montage onboard performances, as well as DAW plugins through surround impulse reverbs and out to 4 monitors via the 4 Montage audio outs.

I can't hear any difference onboard or external. I think I'm effectively doing what is described.

February 7

4 hours ago, ludo said:

Piano is such a difficult sound for speakers… headphones not a single problem.

This tells me it's more about your EQ and the room your sound is in. Try playing around with your EQ a bit more. It's a very powerful and essential tool for getting pianos to sound right, IMHO👍

February 7

5 minutes ago, Theo Verelst said:

For me, equivalence of the sound is paramount, like if I'd subtract the SW version "live" from the digital Usb connection from the M, do I get zero? Also, if, like with CP4,I can "improve" the sound on the basis of certain processing, can I do that in SW as well?

T

So if I'm reading you correctly, are you, like many people, still under under the impression the ESP will only be equivalent as long as the hardware is connected?

Your paramount equivalence is already a reality. The plugin IS a software Montage M, (allowing for them to "finish" it's editing functionality this year), you will be able to do anything with the plugin that you can do with the hardware, (sound wise). I already load my old MODX, and Montage 1 user backups, samples and all, into the ESP. When playing it on my laptop with any old hardware controller, I forget sometimes I'm not using my real Montage.

I'm not sure how much more equivalent you can get👍

February 7

I vote 8030's on their own.

The sub would sit there dormant most of the time, unless you EQ'd the bass on the pianos to an unrealistic level.

February 7

Well, I'm going to leave travel vouchers and concert tickets to my great great great great grand kids in my inheritance.

That's about 2120 or so. The composition should be well into it's second movement by then, so they will have only missed the first few notes.

Seriously, the creative exploration of this really appeals to me, in a not so serious way.👍

February 6

It's a very "generic" description of most of the latest actions. They seem to be focused on the surfaces, rather than the character of the action.

("the white keys feature ivory-colored key-tops, faithfully recreating the nuanced characteristics and authentic sensation of playing an acoustic piano.")

And forgive my ignorance, but I never realized that the color of the keys affect the feel of the action!

February 5

9 hours ago, ElmerJFudd said:

The install and use does not require eLicenser? It’s a simple code install?

Do you need to be connected to the internet to install? Do you need to be connected to the internet to use?

Yes it does require the e-licencer. Which is why I mentioned the scenario using someone else's account. My point was that the Montage hardware is not physically required in any instance to install the plugin. You do have to be connected to the internet to initially activate with e-licencer, but after that it can be untethered and go anywhere you like offline to use it.

February 5

1 hour ago, Julius D Majestic Studios said:

So what technically would happen if you didn't need have the hardware? I ask because I've been having trouble getting Logic (or any DAW) to authorize the plugin. I don't have my Montage connected to the computer though. I thought the plugin was standalone (hence all the GBs of data (I assumed samples, etc) that come with it. But maybe if I connected it via USB, it would authorize.

I also want to add that Steinberg authorization manager is saying that it's activated... super weird.

I have a second install of it on a Macbook that I use with my Roland RD88, or Numa X GT. It fresh installs and works as an independent plugin, without the need for the hardware Montage at any point. Not sure why Logic doesn't let it register, must be something else going on with your system that is causing that.

As far as installing the plugin, then selling the hardware, I see no reason why you couldn't actually do that, but you'd have to allow fudging a couple of things.

1. The new owner doesn't hold you to task on transferring it to them.

2. Your Montage serial is registered under your account at Yamaha. Again, the new owner would have to not worry about serial number changes.

Other than that, there's no way Yamaha/Steinberg would know you didn't have the hardware in your possession.

For the point of case, you could also theoretically allow someone else, who doesn't own the hardware to install one of the 3 activations on their computer, but it would still be activated under you account. Of course it's not a recommended course of action legally, and someone would have to give them the install file. Of course this is only one step from piracy, so not to be condoned. It's just to demonstrate that it's tied to you account not your hardware.

February 4

10 out of 10 for originality! The musical content IMHO? ummm....yep.

To be fair, music as a creative art has no boundaries, and the use of sound to create association with feelings or memories is very strong, so this makes outsider music entirely valid

February 3

I agree, there's passwords for everything, and they are supposed to be all different! I've migrated to paying with my phone, or my watch. It uses my facial recognition or biometrics, so I don't have to remember pins. If I need to use my card, as I haven't used it for ages, I can't remember the PIN!

Unfortunately, the criminals out there will always try to be one step ahead. PINS and passwords will eventually be redundant as we'll all go biometric.

February 1

If anyone's interested, there's a firmware update for the hardware from 1.20 to 1.21. It fixes the syncing issue. I tried it and it works now.

February 1

On 1/31/2024 at 7:16 AM, Analogaddict said:

I installed it on my 2015 MBP today - unfortunately the UI doesn’t fit the screen and I can’t find any way to resize it… 🤦‍♂️I can’t scroll to the first two parts and therefore I can’t load anything. I’ll try again tomorrow.

Did you set the display size button in the settings to small? It should fit then.

February 1

40 minutes ago, ElmerJFudd said:

That is the question of the day. I’m hoping someone will chime in!

From what I can tell, No (not yet). I have it installed on a Macbook Pro, and controlling it with my RD88. When I increment program up, I have the script window open on Logic and I see the Program Change messages scrolling though, but alas the ESP doesn't change performances. Unless there's something else I've missed, but there's not a lot to the settings as yet.

I am able to map cc's to change scenes though, from an external controller.

However in my investigations I've discovered a couple of things in plain site which may be of interest:

For those having trouble with fitting the window on a lower res screen, in settings there is a large and small button, which reduced the plugin window down for smaller screens.

There is clearly from my experience some performances which are heavy on resources, but I see next to buffer size in GB, there is a "Lite" mode. When selected, the performances which are heavy on my system and did have sound breakup, now work perfectly. I hear no difference in the sound. Can't believe I missed that!

February 1

Subscription might be rightly aimed at those who can't afford the hardware, at least in the short term, and even those who convulse at $500 for the software outright.

February 1

I wonder if Yamaha might even be considering ESP as a subscription? 😵 Do Yamaha have any musical product that is subscriber?

Rather than a hardware sales killer, they might see that as teasing way of getting people to sample the product and then buying the hardware! Or keep the subscription going.

January 31

3 hours ago, jazzpiano88 said:

Has anyone been able to explain the inexplicable presence of a relief photo of a Montage rather than a keybed in the UI?

I was thinking that not being finished software, it was just a "placeholder" until further functionality is included?

Despite my issues with resources hogging, I still find it a great offering, and the problems I have with it is in a narrow set of conditions. On the whole, most performances are pretty light on resources. It's just some of them, particularly the older Montage motion perfs that I have trouble with. Also sounds with longer releases and lots of polyphony, like when I play orchestral harp manually fingering arpeggios with two hands across the range. This is only the live playing situation.

I suspect, if I laid down multiple tracks, (which I haven't yet), and had Logic play that back, things may be somewhat better.

In the end it doesn't fuss me too much, as the ESP at this stage is just a curio to play with, then I go back to my real Montage if I want punch out 2 fisted chords in reatlime👍

January 28

12 minutes ago, ElmerJFudd said:

Two issue possible here. Logic and MainStage need an update to take advantage of all cores on newer Apple silicon like the M2. Yamaha/Steinberg have some efficiency improvements to make. Of course we can't test the latter because there is no standalone version of Montage M. But someone with access can try Montage M in other hosts like Gig Performer for instance.

Yes, I think a Logic/Mainstage update is in order. The Steinberg/Yamaha driver isn't in the picture, because I didn't have the Montage hardware connected. Though the problem occurred when playing using the Montage as a DAW contoller, I also tried it through my RD88, and its USB audio. Same. I then suspecting issues with Logic, loaded the Montage vst via another vst host which came with a Nektar controller I have, (Nektarine). Same thing happened, So maybe the thread issue is a Mac OS issue. I'm running Sonoma 14.3. Acutally, the more I look at what I've just said, the more confused I am, and the more I don't know 🤔

January 28

6 hours ago, ElmerJFudd said:

In DAW situation you can simply raise the buffer to max to work on projects with heavier cpu needs. You can also freeze tracks when necessary.

I hope to hear back from MainStage users however where real time low latency is critical for performance. Can one have two or three instances of Montage M in the same patch?

I simply tried everything. Every buffer size, sample rate etc. The issue I see, is it's more about thread use than cpu load in total. When playing a live track in Logic, it seems to use one thread per track, and doesn't share with other threads. It's the same effect with Mainstage. I loaded it in Mainstage and on some performances the sound broke up when playing lots of notes or sounds with long sustains. (The same sounds played in the same way on the hardware Montage is not a problem). Realtime latency isn't an issue when playing live. Most performances on the whole are pretty good. So having multiple instances of performances which don't max out each thread would work. When using multiple instances you're not going to be live playing them all at once in Logic so that should be ok. But I wouldn't layer several instances in Mainstage and play live, haven't tried it, but I can guess where that will go!

January 28

Blake and other Yamaha dudes are really pushing the multiple instances thing. There's buckets of optimism floating around.

From my experience so far, many instances would have to contain some fairly light performances on each. On my Mac Studio and m1 Pro Macbook Pro, I came into issue very quickly by selecting just one of those more complex morphing arpeggiations. The playing thread on Logic maxed out and the sound broke up. I tried different audio interfaces, different DAW's etc. and that was on only one instance!

I can only hope that further builds will be a bit more resource friendly. Maybe it's been optimised for Cubase, which I don't use, I don't know.

I believe I'm not the only one, so time will tell. Overall, it's quite polished for what it is, and I'm cautiously impressed 👍

January 27

5 hours ago, jazzpiano88 said:

Same here, I'm having an intense bout of GAS although I haven't acted on it. I've got the original Montage8 but this M8x is almost too much to resist. I've never gigged with the Montage8 so I'm thinking of just keeping it as a time capsule.

I also have your other hobby (amateur radio) that is tugging at me to get some antennas working at my new locale. It's a curse! Radio, Music, Photography, not enough time!

Yeah, I often feel the same, just too many interests to fit in to my life. And I'm lucky to be retired now! and still don't spend as much time with my music as I'd like.

I often wonder how I ever fit work in before I retired, with all the interests I have.

Having sold my Montage8 for the M8x, I don't think you're too far behind with the Montage8. It's still a fine instrument! I just love the Montage build quality.

Sadly, I had to sell my 8 to help fund the M8x. I bought the M8x for the GEX action and the improved audio, the ANx is a bonus, but I was able to do most of what the M8x can do on the older 8. I guess as time goes on I'll learn to leverage the extra functionality from the M8x. I'll never be an expert on them, just don't have the time!

January 26

2 hours ago, jazzpiano88 said:

I’d still be interested in comparing the vst audio quality versus the analog outputs of the Montage M HW. Maybe live it’s good enough.

Yamaha boasts: [PURE ANALOG CIRCUIT 2] The upgraded Pure Analog Circuit included in MONTAGE M reduces noise and improves the dynamic range, crosstalk, low-frequency phase, and distortion rate, resulting in clearer sound at all volumes. You’ll also find the sound has more detailed low-mids and presence.

It’s not clear how the vst models/generates the Montage Synth engine tones but it sounds like they’ve done a good job. And then there is the vst audio interface D/A quality, which is as good as you want to pay for on your compute platform.

Well, that's the thing. When using the vst with any hardware other than the Montage M, the sound quality is only going to be as good as the DAC hardware. This is also why one reason my initial comparison was using the Montage audio itself. But one of the attractions of having the vst is so you don't have to have the Montage with you, So there in lies the premise that the vst potentially may not sound as good as the original. But it will sound as good as your other vst's. When out and about, you're not going to carrying the the best studio hardware with you, but at the same time, you're probably not going to be in a position to be nit picking the audio either. I've always said I'd love Yamaha to produce a separate USB audio interface module with the same kit that's in the Montage, that would be the icing on the cake for having great sound without having a Montage.

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