Bill Spencer Posted August 5, 2019 Share Posted August 5, 2019 Funny how you you learn things when you actually listen to a recording of a song you assumed you "knew". In "Michelle", every one I've ever played it with, and every fake book version, has the second chord of the verse as a iv (four minor). In the record key of F, that would be a Bbmi, and indeed, the melody there is Db - Ab ("...my belle...") implying Bbmi7. However a listen reveals that the backing vocals (the only chordal content at that point) are actually singing a Bb7 chord, making that chord actually a Bb7(#9). Or am I the only one that always played it as a minor four chord? Beatles is full of cool stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harmonizer Posted August 5, 2019 Share Posted August 5, 2019 Looking at the chords for the intro of "If I Fell" taught me they had more going on in some songs than you might think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Docbop Posted August 5, 2019 Share Posted August 5, 2019 Looking at the chords for the intro of "If I Fell" taught me they had more going on in some songs than you might think. When I was in music school we had a composition class and to keep a bunch of young guitar slingers interesting in traditional composition the teacher used all Beatles songs as examples of traditional composition. It was really cool seeing and hearing all the traditional methods at work in modern Beatle tunes. They definitely had a lot going on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reezekeys Posted August 5, 2019 Share Posted August 5, 2019 As you say, definitely a Bb7, not minor. I'm not sure I would call it a Bb7 #9 though. Yes the melody hits that Db for a single quarter note and that is technically the #9. Put it this way â if you gave a chord chart of this to a piano player who didn't know the song, and he played a real Bb7 #9 voicing there, it would sound wrong imo. The BG singers are voicing a straight Bb7 chord and that's what I would play. Thanks for pointing this out. I saw an interview with Billy Joel where he complained that everybody plays a wrong chord on Just the Way You Are due to a mistake in the original sheet music transcription (the exact chord escapes me at the moment). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drawback Posted August 5, 2019 Share Posted August 5, 2019 I play the Michelle chord as a 7th. Re: the Billy Joel chord - is it not the second chord of the intro? Many play it as a 4 major but IIRC it"s 4 minor. Quote ____________________________________ Rod Here for the gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reezekeys Posted August 5, 2019 Share Posted August 5, 2019 I play the Michelle chord as a 7th. Re: the Billy Joel chord - is it not the second chord of the intro? Many play it as a 4 major but IIRC it"s 4 minor. Nope, I found it: (The forum sw won't let me embed the u-tube when it's linked to a specific time like I did above. Here's the whole interview. The part where he talks about people playing the wrong chord driving him "frikkin' nuts" is at 5:56). [video:youtube] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
analogman1 Posted August 5, 2019 Share Posted August 5, 2019 I'd simply consider the Db as a passing tone... Quote Tom Nord Electro 5D, Modal Cobalt 8, Yamaha upright piano, numerous plug-ins... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MathOfInsects Posted August 5, 2019 Share Posted August 5, 2019 The Beatles were incredibly audacious in their harmonic choices, almost from the beginning. One way to think about is: if you were playing a gig with someone who had never heard a Beatles song, and you wanted to call one of their tunes, how many can you think of where you'd be able to say, "It's in A, just follow, you'll hear the changes"? Nearly every song has some harmonic surprise or innovation that comes out of left field, but then sounds perfectly contextual in retrospect. Now think about their contemporaries on the charts at the time--Stones, Who, etc. Great bands, but you'd do fine calling almost any of their tunes and trusting a player to intuit the changes. Quote Now out! "Mind the Gap," a 24-song album of new material. www.joshweinstein.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Spencer Posted August 5, 2019 Author Share Posted August 5, 2019 I wouldn"t play it as a #9 either- my main point was that everybody I"ve ever played it with (admittedly, no many, as it"s rarely called) expects it to be a iv minor chord and I think singers would generally be thrown off if they hear the major third. Maybe that"s just because it"s wrong in the Real Book... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drawback Posted August 6, 2019 Share Posted August 6, 2019 I play the Michelle chord as a 7th. Re: the Billy Joel chord - is it not the second chord of the intro? Many play it as a 4 major but IIRC it"s 4 minor. Nope, I found it: (The forum sw won't let me embed the u-tube when it's linked to a specific time like I did above. Here's the whole interview. The part where he talks about people playing the wrong chord driving him "frikkin' nuts" is at 5:56). [video:youtube] Hey Rob - what"s the chord? The video isn"t available in 'my country' (I"d love to play the right chord - have always played the second chord of the intro as a 4minor6th over 1) Quote ____________________________________ Rod Here for the gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MathOfInsects Posted August 6, 2019 Share Posted August 6, 2019 Hey Rob - what"s the chord? The video isn"t available in 'my country' (I"d love to play the right chord - have always played the second chord of the intro as a 4minor6th over 1) It's the next chord that bugs him, the one that starts G/D. That chord then moves to a Dsus, not a D triad--only the B moves to A, the other notes stay the same. That drives him crazy and he corrects anyone he hears playing it as a straight D. Quote Now out! "Mind the Gap," a 24-song album of new material. www.joshweinstein.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drawback Posted August 6, 2019 Share Posted August 6, 2019 Yes ð sorry to derail. Now back to our original programming. How about those Beatles, eh? Quote ____________________________________ Rod Here for the gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
o0Ampy0o Posted August 6, 2019 Share Posted August 6, 2019 Well listening to that Billy Joel segment a few times, like I suspect is true of most fans, I could not hear the difference anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RudyS Posted August 6, 2019 Share Posted August 6, 2019 Sorry for the OT, but I just saw a documentary of a Dutch band called "the analogues". They do complete Beatles studio albums from the period The Beatles didn't perform live any more (Stg. pepper, abbey roads etc). They try to copy them exactly as the can, meaning buying all the original instruments, making a click exactly on the tempo of the songs (including the natural chaining of it) etc. It was a really nice one. It's also available on youtube: [video:youtube] Quote Rudy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zxcvbnm098 Posted August 7, 2019 Share Posted August 7, 2019 That's a level of detail and obsession I could never reach......unreal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamuelBLupowitz Posted August 7, 2019 Share Posted August 7, 2019 Just had a similar moment at rehearsal last night. One of my bands covers 'I Want You (She"s So Heavy),' and our singer asked if we could break down the big vocal moment on the 'she"s so heavy' part, as she was having trouble finding her pitch. So examining that moment (after listening to that song dozens and dozens of times over the last eighteen years or so), I realized that the reason she"s having trouble is that the lead vocal note is an F, harmonized as a D minor triad, while the bass and guitars move to an E major chord. Those guys! Always up to something! Quote Samuel B. Lupowitz Musician. Songwriter. Food Enthusiast. Bad Pun Aficionado. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeToGo Posted August 7, 2019 Share Posted August 7, 2019 well now, thanks to this thread, I've just spent the last half hour going over the chords to "If I Fell" instead of getting any work done. Kudos! Quote It's not the gear, it's the player ... but hey, look -- new gear! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mjazz Posted August 7, 2019 Share Posted August 7, 2019 Funny how you you learn things when you actually listen to a recording of a song you assumed you "knew". In "Michelle", every one I've ever played it with, and every fake book version, has the second chord of the verse as a iv (four minor). In the record key of F, that would be a Bbmi, and indeed, the melody there is Db - Ab ("...my belle...") implying Bbmi7. However a listen reveals that the backing vocals (the only chordal content at that point) are actually singing a Bb7 chord, making that chord actually a Bb7(#9). Very interesting, never noticed. It's actually even a little bit more dissonant than that, listening closely. He sings the word "ma" as a slur starting on B-natural (the b9 relative to the Bb7) up to the D-flat (the #9 relative to the Bb7)! (Excerpt here at 35% speed, original pitch) Quote Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mjazz Posted August 7, 2019 Share Posted August 7, 2019 This just popped back into mind ... McCartney actually talked about that particular chord in Michelle, and how it came about, in this 2014 interview at Rollins College. The story starts at 17:01, when the interviewer asks, "Were there some chords in the early songs that were surprises ...?" McCartney's answer takes a couple of minutes. Funny. www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8OY2MKVhpY [video:youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8OY2MKVhpY Quote Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spider76 Posted August 7, 2019 Share Posted August 7, 2019 No idea if this is accurate (sounds overly complicated to me) but the guy is positively obsessed. https://youtu.be/cUKinpqEeAM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamuelBLupowitz Posted August 7, 2019 Share Posted August 7, 2019 No idea if this is accurate (sounds overly complicated to me) but the guy is positively obsessed. https://youtu.be/cUKinpqEeAMAny time a band I'm in is learning a Beatles song, I seek the wisdom of Galeazzo Frudua! Quote Samuel B. Lupowitz Musician. Songwriter. Food Enthusiast. Bad Pun Aficionado. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MathOfInsects Posted August 7, 2019 Share Posted August 7, 2019 This just popped back into mind ... McCartney actually talked about that particular chord in Michelle, and how it came about, in this 2014 interview at Rollins College. The story starts at 17:01, when the interviewer asks, "Were there some chords in the early songs that were surprises ...?" McCartney's answer takes a couple of minutes. Funny. www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8OY2MKVhpY [video:youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8OY2MKVhpY So unequivocally a #9, not approach tones; hardwired into the harmony there. Quote Now out! "Mind the Gap," a 24-song album of new material. www.joshweinstein.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mjazz Posted August 7, 2019 Share Posted August 7, 2019 This just popped back into mind ... McCartney actually talked about that particular chord in Michelle, and how it came about, in this 2014 interview at Rollins College. The story starts at 17:01, when the interviewer asks, "Were there some chords in the early songs that were surprises ...?" McCartney's answer takes a couple of minutes. Funny. www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8OY2MKVhpY [video:youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8OY2MKVhpY So unequivocally a #9, not approach tones; hardwired into the harmony there. Yes. You can really hear it when he's playing live on a six-string ... (around 0:28) [video:youtube] Quote Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cphollis Posted August 8, 2019 Share Posted August 8, 2019 Would anyone like to repeat the famous deconstruction of the opening chord to "A Hard Day's Night"? Seriously, don't listen to Beatles songs casually, you'll miss the depth each and every time. Magic Slowdowner is my friend. You could teach a university course on what they did. Quote Want to make your band better? Check out "A Guide To Starting (Or Improving!) Your Own Local Band" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeToGo Posted August 8, 2019 Share Posted August 8, 2019 The Beatles were incredibly audacious in their harmonic choices, almost from the beginning. One way to think about is: if you were playing a gig with someone who had never heard a Beatles song, and you wanted to call one of their tunes, how many can you think of where you'd be able to say, "It's in A, just follow, you'll hear the changes"? Nearly every song has some harmonic surprise or innovation that comes out of left field, but then sounds perfectly contextual in retrospect. Reminds me of a time when my church put on a "Beatles sing-along" night as fundraiser. I volunteered to play bass (which I play left-handed). There was no set list -- it was all request -- so I prepped with YouTube on the more challenging tunes, just in case. It soon became clear I was the only one who had, when everyone else fell apart on the bridge of "Here There and Everywhere" -- I still remember the bandleader's face, with that exquisite blend of bewilderment and horror, his hands froze in indecision. Fortunately that was one I had made sure I knew 100%, so we got through. -- not to imply these guys were not normally prepared: if you've ever done church performance, you know the rule is short-notice. and yet on another occasion, they did "God Only Knows" and it was letter-perfect, and that's no small feat. Quote It's not the gear, it's the player ... but hey, look -- new gear! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spider76 Posted August 8, 2019 Share Posted August 8, 2019 Any time a band I'm in is learning a Beatles song, I seek the wisdom of Galeazzo Frudua! I play in a Beatles tribute and I prefer to stick to the holy texts (the official thousand-plus pages book with all the vocal and instrumental parts of all songs Beatles ever recorded) And yes, definitely you can't play even the "simple" songs by ear, there's always a harmonic or rhythmic surprise here and there (and everywhere)! And studying George Martin's arrangements is the best music school I ever did!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamuelBLupowitz Posted August 8, 2019 Share Posted August 8, 2019 Any time a band I'm in is learning a Beatles song, I seek the wisdom of Galeazzo Frudua! I play in a Beatles tribute and I prefer to stick to the holy texts (the official thousand-plus book with all the vocal and instrumental parts of all songs Beatles ever recorded) It's an excellent book. I own a copy, and so do a few of my music friends, and it seems like we *all* use religious terminology when referring to it. Quote Samuel B. Lupowitz Musician. Songwriter. Food Enthusiast. Bad Pun Aficionado. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Threadslayer Posted August 8, 2019 Share Posted August 8, 2019 It's an excellent book. I own a copy, and so do a few of my music friends, and it seems like we *all* use religious terminology when referring to it. Is it This one? Quote Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect. -Mark Twain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MathOfInsects Posted August 8, 2019 Share Posted August 8, 2019 Should this thread be wrapped up as a sub-discussion in the one about bugs on the forum? Quote Now out! "Mind the Gap," a 24-song album of new material. www.joshweinstein.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamuelBLupowitz Posted August 8, 2019 Share Posted August 8, 2019 It's an excellent book. I own a copy, and so do a few of my music friends, and it seems like we *all* use religious terminology when referring to it. Is it This one? Hehe, we're talking about this bad boy. Should this thread be wrapped up as a sub-discussion in the one about bugs on the forum?I'm the last person who should protest this sort of thing, but... was that a "Beatles/beetles/bugs" joke? Quote Samuel B. Lupowitz Musician. Songwriter. Food Enthusiast. Bad Pun Aficionado. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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