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#2948339 - 09/14/18 01:32 PM Re: Yamaha MODX [Re: Mighty Motif Max]
fjzingo Offline
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Seems like its the same as the montage, part 1 midichannel 1 in according to the manual.
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#2948340 - 09/14/18 01:35 PM Re: Yamaha MODX [Re: fjzingo]
SeaGtGruff Offline
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Originally Posted By: fjzingo
No but you never know....
Originally Posted By: mojkarma
Regarding the midi channel, do you guys really believe that they left them fixed on the flagship (=Montage) and changed it on the low cost Modx?
I'm absolutely sure they didn't change the midi channel allocation.


Exactly, especially since they apparently added a song sequencer back, which the MONTAGE doesn't have.

With XG you can assign the channels however you want, although they do default to channel# = part#. However, the Owner's Manual doesn't say that it has XG compatibility, so I guess not?
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#2948341 - 09/14/18 01:58 PM Re: Yamaha MODX [Re: SeaGtGruff]
mojkarma Offline
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Registered: 09/18/17
Posts: 34
Originally Posted By: SeaGtGruff
Originally Posted By: fjzingo
No but you never know....
Originally Posted By: mojkarma
Regarding the midi channel, do you guys really believe that they left them fixed on the flagship (=Montage) and changed it on the low cost Modx?
I'm absolutely sure they didn't change the midi channel allocation.


Exactly, especially since they apparently added a song sequencer back, which the MONTAGE doesn't have.


Not really true! The Montage has a song sequencer. It is most probably the same in the Modx. This is not the sequencer like in Kronos or the Motif line, it is a scratch pad where you can record your ideas, all tracks at once and then transfer them to cubase or any other sequencer.

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#2948352 - 09/14/18 03:21 PM Re: Yamaha MODX [Re: mojkarma]
AnotherScott Offline
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Originally Posted By: zephonic
Crazy, right now my preferred (lightweight) rig would be a Montage 7 on top of a MODX8. But that's just too much Yamaha in one rig!

Since clonewheel organ, VA synth, and aftertouch seem like the big gaps, my preferred rig might be Nord Stage 3 Compact on top of a MODX8. (Flipping the two in terms of actions would be lighter, but would cost me the drawbars.)

Originally Posted By: GregC
The 4 models of the Kronos family (LS, Kross, Krome) are showing their age IMO.

In that niche, Korg should be prepared to completely re-vamp all 4 boards. I also thought a price reduction on Kronos is long over due.

Kross has nothing in common with Kronos except starting with KR, and it was recently revamped. (Krome is not much closer to Kronos than Kross is, just borrowing a bit of piano/EP I think.)

But I still see Kronos as perfectly current. That's kind of the beauty of a software based system. There's stuff I'd like to see, but I'm not sure it needs any new hardware. What do you think it's missing to be competitive?

Originally Posted By: GregC
there are a few useful features, I agree. And the FA is a useful, neat solution...with some effort, I think the features can be appended to the MODx.

Sure. Just buy an FA-06 and a MIDI cable. ;-) Really, I don't see them adding any of the FA features I mentioned to a MODX. Most are probably impossible.

Originally Posted By: Mighty Motif Max
Originally Posted By: fjzingo
So how is midi implemented, does each part have a fixed midichannel?
I want to know this too. +1
Originally Posted By: mojkarma
Regarding the midi channel, do you guys really believe that they left them fixed on the flagship (=Montage) and changed it on the low cost Modx?

What exactly is the issue here? As I referenced above, it looks to me lke the Montage permits user assignment of MIDI channels. See http://montageforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=19 - What am I missing?
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#2948354 - 09/14/18 03:35 PM Re: Yamaha MODX [Re: mojkarma]
MotiDave Offline
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Registered: 12/04/12
Posts: 1870
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For those busy searching for the 50" ATA case for me, first off I want to thank you. Second ... so far, I've found one:

GTSA-KEY61

SW states external length is exactly 50" and accommodates 44" internal length. I would post Gator's webpage to avoid a retailer advertisement but Gator doesnt post the specs of their products. which is weird. I typed dimensions into Gator page and they did reply back with this case as optimal. Apologies if this was bad of me... I'm not recommending anyone buy here, I just didn't find published detail specs anywhere else yet.

Internal Length: 44"
Internal Width: 17.38"
Internal Height: 6"
External Length: 50"
External Width: 21.5"
External Height: 9"

anyone have experience with this line of gator cases? in particular the hinges - are they robust and rugged?

find other ATA cases at 50" and under yet? its ok, keep looking... smile
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#2948355 - 09/14/18 03:44 PM Re: Yamaha MODX [Re: AnotherScott]
GregC Offline
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Registered: 10/26/03
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Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
[q

Originally Posted By: GregC
The 4 models of the Kronos family (LS, Kross, Krome) are showing their age IMO.

In that niche, Korg should be prepared to completely re-vamp all 4 boards. I also thought a price reduction on Kronos is long over due.

Kross has nothing in common with Kronos except starting with KR, and it was recently revamped. (Krome is not much closer to Kronos than Kross is, just borrowing a bit of piano/EP I think.)

But I still see Kronos as perfectly current. That's kind of the beauty of a software based system. There's stuff I'd like to see, but I'm not sure it needs any new hardware. What do you think it's missing to be competitive?


?


Korg seems to present Kross is in the family , headed by Daddy Kronos. Look at their product page. All 4 bunched together. Maybe they just stuck Kross in their.

Re: Kronos. I am from the school of what have you done for me lately. And its been 17 months. of no upgrades. Sure, its still selling. I know its strengths.

So maybe Kronos has reached its zenith for further improvement. Its quite easy to max out polyphony, if you lay down 10 or more tracks. Thats on top of my wish list , more processing power, solve the constraints . This might enable a new sound engine.
Many have a long wish list, like I do.

This has been debated thoroughly. I think Korg should be more communicative which would allow some long time owners to plan.
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#2948357 - 09/14/18 03:52 PM Re: Yamaha MODX [Re: GregC]
AnotherScott Offline
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Originally Posted By: GregC
Korg seems to present Kross is in the family , headed by Daddy Kronos. Look at their product page. All 4 bunched together. Maybe they just stuck Kross in their.

Strictly a marketing thing. Kronos was a hit, and they want to hitch all the lesser workstations to that wagon, and give them KR names, but look at the tech... Kross/Krome have zero of the nine engines of a Kronos. Or maybe a lesser version of one of the nine, depending on how you want to look at it.

Originally Posted By: GregC
its been 17 months. of no upgrades.

I'd say that's not uncommon for any model of any brand, except maybe Nord.

Originally Posted By: GregC
I think Korg should be more communicative which would allow some long time owners to plan.

Korg is no less communicative than anyone else, though.
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#2948360 - 09/14/18 04:24 PM Re: Yamaha MODX [Re: mojkarma]
SeaGtGruff Offline
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Registered: 07/09/14
Posts: 244
Loc: South Carolina
Originally Posted By: mojkarma
Originally Posted By: SeaGtGruff
they apparently added a song sequencer back, which the MONTAGE doesn't have.


Not really true! The Montage has a song sequencer. It is most probably the same in the Modx. This is not the sequencer like in Kronos or the Motif line, it is a scratch pad where you can record your ideas, all tracks at once and then transfer them to cubase or any other sequencer.


Oops! My bad. I was just going by what Woody(?) was saying in his unboxing video, which I was watching on one screen while keeping up with the forums on another screen. By an odd coincidence he had just gotten to the page in the "getting started" guide (I forget the exact title) where it described the song sequencer, and he said it was interesting to see it because it had been removed from the MONTAGE. I paused his video at that point, posted my comment, and then had to take care of other stuff so I didn't finish watching his video. For all I know, he corrected himself later on. frown
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#2948371 - 09/14/18 05:28 PM Re: Yamaha MODX [Re: AnotherScott]
Sam Mullins Offline
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Registered: 08/21/07
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Originally Posted By: AnotherScott


What exactly is the issue here? As I referenced above, it looks to me lke the Montage permits user assignment of MIDI channels. See http://montageforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=19 - What am I missing?


I think your reference talks about setting the tranmsit channel...but it's the receive channel that has the limitation.
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#2948375 - 09/14/18 07:40 PM Re: Yamaha MODX [Re: Sam Mullins]
AnotherScott Offline
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Originally Posted By: Sam Mullins
I think your reference talks about setting the tranmsit channel...but it's the receive channel that has the limitation.

Ah, thanks!
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#2948386 - 09/14/18 09:25 PM Re: Yamaha MODX [Re: AnotherScott]
Fleer Offline
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Registered: 08/21/17
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Still wondering whether the lack of a Pure Analog Circuit (PAC) will show.

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#2948390 - 09/14/18 10:02 PM Re: Yamaha MODX [Re: Fleer]
KorgyPorky Offline
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Registered: 03/03/17
Posts: 110
Originally Posted By: Fleer
Still wondering whether the lack of a Pure Analog Circuit (PAC) will show.


No, because you record over usb directly into the daw..and didn’t use it..
And in live situations noboddy notices the subtile differences

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#2948398 - 09/15/18 12:45 AM Re: Yamaha MODX [Re: AnotherScott]
mojkarma Offline
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Registered: 09/18/17
Posts: 34
Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
Originally Posted By: Sam Mullins
I think your reference talks about setting the tranmsit channel...but it's the receive channel that has the limitation.

Ah, thanks!


The receive channels are fixed per part. If you want to play two parts on the Montage from an external keyboard, the external keyboard must have two parts where you can set different midi channels. On a Kronos for example, you can set 5, 9 or all 16 parts to the same channel and control it from an external keyboard from a single zone set to the respective midichannel on your midicontroller. On Montage, for each internal part on it, you must have a zone on your midicontroller. To control 8 parts on the montage, your midicontroller must have 8 zones.

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#2948416 - 09/15/18 05:37 AM Re: Yamaha MODX [Re: mojkarma]
MIDI2XS Offline
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Easy Sounds has a special MODX "Music Production Guide" issue.

http://www.easysounds.eu/MusicProductionGuide_2018_MODX_EN.pdf
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#2948419 - 09/15/18 06:22 AM Re: Yamaha MODX [Re: mojkarma]
AnotherScott Offline
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Originally Posted By: mojkarma
The receive channels are fixed per part. If you want to play two parts on the Montage from an external keyboard, the external keyboard must have two parts where you can set different midi channels. On a Kronos for example, you can set 5, 9 or all 16 parts to the same channel and control it from an external keyboard from a single zone set to the respective midichannel on your midicontroller. On Montage, for each internal part on it, you must have a zone on your midicontroller. To control 8 parts on the montage, your midicontroller must have 8 zones.

Got it. Luckily, not an issue for me. Integrating external sounds might be important for me, but being a sound source for another keyboard isn't... and if I did use that function, it is very unlikely I'd be in a situation where I'd need more than one sound triggered remotely AND my remote board didn't support more than one zone. Too many uncommon (for me) things would have to fall into place at the same time, not gonna happen.

But in checking into this, I think saying "To control 8 parts on the montage, your midicontroller must have 8 zones" is not necessarily true... it looks like you could do that with the setting: “MIDI I/O Mode” = Single -- no?
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#2948425 - 09/15/18 07:20 AM Re: Yamaha MODX [Re: AnotherScott]
benj2017 Offline
Member

Registered: 08/07/18
Posts: 25
Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
Originally Posted By: mojkarma
The receive channels are fixed per part. If you want to play two parts on the Montage from an external keyboard, the external keyboard must have two parts where you can set different midi channels. On a Kronos for example, you can set 5, 9 or all 16 parts to the same channel and control it from an external keyboard from a single zone set to the respective midichannel on your midicontroller. On Montage, for each internal part on it, you must have a zone on your midicontroller. To control 8 parts on the montage, your midicontroller must have 8 zones.

Got it. Luckily, not an issue for me. Integrating external sounds might be important for me, but being a sound source for another keyboard isn't... and if I did use that function, it is very unlikely I'd be in a situation where I'd need more than one sound triggered remotely AND my remote board didn't support more than one zone. Too many uncommon (for me) things would have to fall into place at the same time, not gonna happen.

But in checking into this, I think saying "To control 8 parts on the montage, your midicontroller must have 8 zones" is not necessarily true... it looks like you could do that with the setting: “MIDI I/O Mode” = Single -- no?


I think there are some variables to this situation. If all you want to do is control a layer or split that is set from the Montage, then you could probably make it work with the single setting, but it might be tricky as you wouldn't want the Montage sending MIDI on the same channel.

However, if you want more flexibility and want to always be able to hit a certain voice on a specific channel while playing a split/layer and be able to switch back and forth quickly without changing the Montage performance, then its a issue.

I think the main point is that on a multi-timbral/multi-part instrument you should be able to change the midi channel per part. It's not rocket science, I've been doing it with Rolands, Yamahas, and Korgs for years now. The only reason it's a thing on the Montage and MODX is that is how Performances worked on the Motif and the guys at Yamaha are either too lazy or cheap to fix it.
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#2948431 - 09/15/18 07:39 AM Re: Yamaha MODX [Re: engineerjoel]
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Time for Korg to play catch-up.
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#2948435 - 09/15/18 08:11 AM Re: Yamaha MODX [Re: benj2017]
AnotherScott Offline
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Originally Posted By: benj2017
Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
I think saying "To control 8 parts on the montage, your midicontroller must have 8 zones" is not necessarily true... it looks like you could do that with the setting: “MIDI I/O Mode” = Single -- no?

I think there are some variables to this situation. If all you want to do is control a layer or split that is set from the Montage, then you could probably make it work with the single setting...However, if you want more flexibility and want to always be able to hit a certain voice on a specific channel while playing a split/layer and be able to switch back and forth quickly without changing the Montage performance, then its a issue.

The way it looks to me is that the Montage easily lets you use a single-zone external controller to play either a single Montage sound or an entire set of split/layered Montage sounds, but does not let you selectively trigger anything between those "one" and "all" options... for that, your external controller would, itself, need to support more than one zone. I think this is what you're saying, yes? I'm assuming this will be the same on the MODX. Personally, I don't find this to be an issue, especially on a lower cost board that is designed to cover "most of what most people need" though I can see where more could be disappointed that even the flagship doesn't have that kind of versatility. But I can also be devil's advocate and say, if you're assembling a high-end "do everything" system, why skimp on the auxiliary controller? Choose a multi-zone board for your external controller, problem solved. After all, complexity has been the biggest knock on the Motf series over the years, and so there is arguably something to be said for a little Nordification, i.e. leaving out options that few people need and/or can easily be addressed some other way, to make the board simpler.
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#2948437 - 09/15/18 08:24 AM Re: Yamaha MODX [Re: AnotherScott]
stoken6 Offline
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This is exactly how the Alesis QS works. You can't trigger more than one internal zone on the same MIDI channel.

I find it irritating, tbh. I gig with a controller under a top board (historically QS6, before that Ensoniq SQ1, now Nord NS2). I like to be able to leave my controller "buried", with just keys and maybe wheels accessible. If I need a single zone across the entire controller for one song, and a four-way split or layer on the next, that's the job of the top board. Even Nord make this awkward on the Stage 2. I can use Dual Keyboard, which gives me a piano/organ/synth downstairs, but loses a piano/organ/synth upstairs. Now I rarely need to layer /split two pianos or organs upstairs, but two synths very frequently (e.g. octave brass/string patches).

So I use the ability to take an individual section (e.g. Piano A) and make it addressable via MIDI only (i.e. assigned to no zone on the Nord's keyboard). That leaves me with just piano downstairs, and all the complicated split/layer stuff upstairs. I make it work, but it's a complication I could do without. Nord's implementation on the Stage 3 (where Dual Keyboard can "take over" any of the individual sections) is much more in line with what I'd like.

Honestly, Kurzweil and Roland seem to do this without making it difficult to use. I don't buy the explanation that Yamaha would prevent multiple zones sharing a MIDI channel is "ease of use".

Cheers, Mike.


Edited by stoken6 (09/15/18 08:25 AM)
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#2948438 - 09/15/18 08:49 AM Re: Yamaha MODX [Re: AnotherScott]
Sam Mullins Offline
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Originally Posted By: AnotherScott

The way it looks to me is that the Montage easily lets you use a single-zone external controller to play either a single Montage sound or an entire set of split/layered Montage sounds, but does not let you selectively trigger anything between those "one" and "all" options... for that, your external controller would, itself, need to support more than one zone. I think this is what you're saying, yes? I'm assuming this will be the same on the MODX. Personally, I don't find this to be an issue, especially on a lower cost board that is designed to cover "most of what most people need" though I can see where more could be disappointed that even the flagship doesn't have that kind of versatility. But I can also be devil's advocate and say, if you're assembling a high-end "do everything" system, why skimp on the auxiliary controller? Choose a multi-zone board for your external controller, problem solved. After all, complexity has been the biggest knock on the Motf series over the years, and so there is arguably something to be said for a little Nordification, i.e. leaving out options that few people need and/or can easily be addressed some other way, to make the board simpler.


I don’t have a dog in this fight because I jumped ship from a long line of Motif-based keyboards to Kronos instead of Montage because of precisely this limitation. I’m quite happy with my Kronos so I really don’t care if they ever change this...but it just seems like Yamaha is losing sales over something that is useful to many (but admittedly not all) people.

A few points:

- their previous entry in this market segment (MOXF) didn’t have this limitation. My Roland JV-1010 (for a few hundred dollars 20 years ago) didn’t have this limitation.

- There are “high end controllers” you might choose for other reasons (e,g, Nord Stage for all the normal reason you might buy one) that don’t implement more than one or two MIDI channel outputs.

- I have a more complicated use case which requires the flexibility, but the basic use case I have heard articulated by many people is this: “I would like to fly with a Montage 61 and rent any basic MIDI weighted 88 controller that I can get locally, which could often be something with limited transmitting channels like a low end digital piano.”
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#2948439 - 09/15/18 09:03 AM Re: Yamaha MODX [Re: AnotherScott]
mojkarma Offline
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Registered: 09/18/17
Posts: 34
Originally Posted By: AnotherScott

Got it. Luckily, not an issue for me. Integrating external sounds might be important for me, but being a sound source for another keyboard isn't... and if I did use that function, it is very unlikely I'd be in a situation where I'd need more than one sound triggered remotely AND my remote board didn't support more than one zone. Too many uncommon (for me) things would have to fall into place at the same time, not gonna happen.


Well, here's the simple idea: If you have a Montage 6, instead of putting money into another synth/workstation type keyboard, why wouldn't you simply buy a midi controller and create performances/setups on the Montage in a way where some parts are played on the Montage and other from the midi controller? Of course, it depends on what kind of music you make and what your job is on stage. I play concert with a setlist containing about 30 songs, not more. I don't really need two different keyboards. I'd rather invest into one midi controller with hammer weighted keys instead of paying additionally for sounds I don't really need.
And when you say you wouldn't need more than one sound...well, the problem is that Yamaha created some of its best single instrument sounds using more than one part in the performance. One part equals to one single patch/program in old terminology. And one part/patch on a Yamaha montage/motif has 8 elements/oscilators. But the CFX piano is sampled at 9 velocity levels. Therefor, to create the CFX piano with all nine velocity levels, you need at least two parts because one part gives you 8 oscilators. And with pedal off samples and other stuff, yamaha somehow spent four parts for their flagship piano patch on the Montage. Four parts means four different zones with four different midichannels on your external controller. Now, ad to that piano a nice dx E. piano for the LA piano patch, add a pad... you get the picture.

Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
But in checking into this, I think saying "To control 8 parts on the montage, your midicontroller must have 8 zones" is not necessarily true... it looks like you could do that with the setting: “MIDI I/O Mode” = Single -- no?


This mode puts absolutely everything to the same midi channel. It also means that your internal parts play on the same channel. So, you cannot use this mode to distribute some of your parts to be controlled from an external controller, this mode actually mirrors the performance with all its parts in a way that it can be played from an external controller. But why would you add an additional external controller to the Montage, just to play the internal performances with all its internal parts if you can do this right on the Montage keyboard_

In short, the Montage is a very bad slave keyboard and if you want to play all the sounds from an Montage between its own keyboard and an additional external controller, you need a capable midicontroller. These days most keyboard controllers are very basic and rarely offer more than 4 zones. If you need more than that, you actually have to buy a "normal" keyboard with 8 or 16 parts. Something like the Kronos or a higher line from Kurzweil. But then you have to spend more money than you initially intended.


Edited by mojkarma (09/15/18 09:07 AM)

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#2948447 - 09/15/18 10:05 AM Re: Yamaha MODX [Re: stoken6]
AnotherScott Offline
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Originally Posted By: stoken6
Honestly, Kurzweil and Roland seem to do this without making it difficult to use. I don't buy the explanation that Yamaha would prevent multiple zones sharing a MIDI channel is "ease of use".

It's not that "preventing" something is making it easier, it's that there are fewer options presented, fewer menus to navigate. To exaggerate the point, if you only need three options, it is simpler to operate a board that only has those three options than it is to operate a board that has those same three options listed in a menu among a dozen other options you don't need. The "clutter" of the the things you don't use is part of what makes a board seem complicated.

Whether Kurz manages this without making it difficult to use is debatable, in that traditionally, Kurz has been right up there with Yamaha in terms of people complimenting them for their depth yet also complaining about their complexity. Kurz does have some simpler boards, but can they do this? I don't know. (I also don't know about Roland... the FA has been complimented for its ease of use, but I don't know whether it has this feature...?)

The way Yamaha used to do this is that Song/Pattern Mix Mode allowed you to assign the same MIDI channel to more than one MIDI zone, while Performance mode allowed you to address up to 4 sounds on the single Global/Basic MIDI channel. But one of the things that people found confusing was how operation differed among different modes. You had to know what you could and couldn't do based on which mode you were in, or know which mode you had to be in in order to do something, or different ways to do the same thing depending on what mode you were in. So I think one Montage goal was probably to eliminate modes to help address the complexity issue. That's probably why you can't naturally do this kind of channel assignment anymore, as they built the new platform around something closest to Performance mode (though it also permits assigning sounds to different channels, which used to require Song/Pattern mode). That isn't to say they could not possibly have added more of Mix mode's flexibility to Performance mode, but again, more options = more complexity. But who knows, maybe they will add it in the future...

Though also, beside choosing an external controller that has zone flexibility of its own, there's also the option of saving different Performances set up for the different combinations that you need to trigger externally, as Benj alluded to. So there are multiple ways to skin this cat, and maybe not so many performance things you really can't find some way to do.
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#2948451 - 09/15/18 10:36 AM Re: Yamaha MODX [Re: mojkarma]
AnotherScott Offline
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Posts: 12691
Originally Posted By: Sam Mullins
the basic use case I have heard articulated by many people is this: “I would like to fly with a Montage 61 and rent any basic MIDI weighted 88 controller that I can get locally, which could often be something with limited transmitting channels like a low end digital piano.”

Good point. The setting up of different Performances might still get you around this one. But otherwise, maybe an iPhone/iPad app to do MIDI routing? In general I'm more forgiving of stuff that can easily be addressed externally with an approach like that, than I am of things like lack of aftertouch or a bad action that you just can't do anything about.

Originally Posted By: mojkarma
Well, here's the simple idea: If you have a Montage 6, instead of putting money into another synth/workstation type keyboard, why wouldn't you simply buy a midi controller and create performances/setups on the Montage in a way where some parts are played on the Montage and other from the midi controller?

While it may take some more setup time, couldn't you address this by setting up different Performances with the different combinations you need? Or, again, maybe an iOS app.

Originally Posted By: mojkarma
when you say you wouldn't need more than one sound...well, the problem is that Yamaha created some of its best single instrument sounds using more than one part in the performance. One part equals to one single patch/program in old terminology. And one part/patch on a Yamaha montage/motif has 8 elements/oscilators. But the CFX piano is sampled at 9 velocity levels. Therefor, to create the CFX piano with all nine velocity levels, you need at least two parts because one part gives you 8 oscilators. And with pedal off samples and other stuff, yamaha somehow spent four parts for their flagship piano patch on the Montage. Four parts means four different zones with four different midichannels on your external controller.

Ah, I see. Yes, if single sounds end up split over multiple MIDI channels, I see the additional complication. If your controller isn't up to the task, then you'd probably generally have to avoid triggering those sounds remotely, and stick with the simpler sounds.

Originally Posted By: mojkarma
Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
But in checking into this, I think saying "To control 8 parts on the montage, your midicontroller must have 8 zones" is not necessarily true... it looks like you could do that with the setting: “MIDI I/O Mode” = Single -- no?

This mode puts absolutely everything to the same midi channel. It also means that your internal parts play on the same channel. So, you cannot use this mode to distribute some of your parts to be controlled from an external controller, this mode actually mirrors the performance with all its parts in a way that it can be played from an external controller. But why would you add an additional external controller to the Montage, just to play the internal performances with all its internal parts if you can do this right on the Montage keyboard

Just for triggering with an alternate action, I guess. But that would let you play the 61/76's high end CFX piano from a hammer action, and then by switching modes, that same keyboard could also function to play single sounds that differ from anything played on the MODX/Montage itself. Can that mode switch be done easily on the fly? But I suspect that an app that lets a single-zone controller function as a multi-zone controller would probably solve all your problems here. I think the MIDI Breakout Box app does it.



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#2948452 - 09/15/18 10:39 AM Re: Yamaha MODX [Re: AnotherScott]
zephonic Offline
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Now that I’ve thought about it some more, I wonder if the 76 isn’t a better fit for me. I was all set on the 88, but the portability of the 7 and the fact that the 8 has the GHS have me second-guessing. Back in the day I used to gig with two semi-weighted 76’ers, and I didn’t really miss the weighted action that much. But if it’s gonna be a 76, I might as well go for the Montage.


The Montage MIDI rx issue surprises me, all multi-timbral keyboards I have owned can do that, and I really don’t understand why the Montage (and MODX) can’t?
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#2948454 - 09/15/18 10:53 AM Re: Yamaha MODX [Re: AnotherScott]
stoken6 Offline
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Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
It's not that "preventing" something is making it easier, it's that there are fewer options presented, fewer menus to navigate.
Oh, I get that completely. I just don't agree with the trade-off. It's a marginal saving in complexity for a substantial loss of functionality, which Sam Mullins articulated very well.

Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
traditionally, Kurz has been right up there with Yamaha in terms of people complimenting them for their depth yet also complaining about their complexity.
I hear lots of compliments to Kurz on their depth and capability - from my time with a Kurzweil PC3LE, I found it mucho deep, but completely logical. When I hear complaints about a board's UI here, it's invariably Yamaha, even through arguably those boards are less "deep" than Kurzweils.

Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
Though also, beside choosing an external controller that has zone flexibility of its own, there's also the option of saving different Performances set up for the different combinations that you need to trigger externally, as Benj alluded to.
I don't see how that would work. Supposing I want:
- Split sounds A and B on a MODX6 with sounds C and D split on a single-channel controller.
Yamaha allows me to split A+B on the MODX6 with either
- Sound C (or D) on its own on the controller (using MIDI I/O Mode=Single)
- A+B on the controller as well (using MIDI I/O Mode=Global or whatever it's called)

Yes with a splittable controller I could do what I want, but now I need the extra complexity of calling up different performances/zone-configurations on the controller as well as changing performances on the MODX. And that precludes a fly+rent approach that Sam Mullins described.

Anyway, I appreciate your contribution here - I'm now off to a gig, but no doubt the debate will still be raging when I'm back...

Cheers, Mike


Edited by stoken6 (09/15/18 10:53 AM)
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#2948455 - 09/15/18 10:58 AM Re: Yamaha MODX [Re: stoken6]
AnotherScott Offline
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Originally Posted By: stoken6
Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
Though also, beside choosing an external controller that has zone flexibility of its own, there's also the option of saving different Performances set up for the different combinations that you need to trigger externally, as Benj alluded to.
I don't see how that would work. Supposing I want:
- Split sounds A and B on a MODX6 with sounds C and D split on a single-channel controller.
Yamaha allows me to split A+B on the MODX6 with either
- Sound C (or D) on its own on the controller (using MIDI I/O Mode=Single)
- A+B on the controller as well (using MIDI I/O Mode=Global or whatever it's called)

Yes with a splittable controller I could do what I want, but now I need the extra complexity of calling up different performances/zone-configurations on the controller as well as changing performances on the MODX. And that precludes a fly+rent approach that Sam Mullins described.

Yes, I see the limitations there. I think adding an app is probably the best (only?) solution.

Yamaha's big into apps these days. It would be nice for them to make a MIDI Routing app that would be a simple plug-and-play with the Montage/MODX (i.e. that would have a similar UI design, that would use the same terminology, to keep it as simple as possible).
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#2948459 - 09/15/18 11:31 AM Re: Yamaha MODX [Re: AnotherScott]
mojkarma Offline
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Posts: 34
Originally Posted By: AnotherScott

While it may take some more setup time, couldn't you address this by setting up different Performances with the different combinations you need? Or, again, maybe an iOS app.


Of course. I'm using different performances for different parts of the songs I play on stage. However, we never heard from Yamaha why the parts have a fixed midichannel and what it is good for.

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#2948464 - 09/15/18 12:04 PM Re: Yamaha MODX [Re: mojkarma]
SeaGtGruff Offline
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Registered: 07/09/14
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Loc: South Carolina
It seems like the MIDI channel problem could be fixed with a MIDI Solutions box or two-- take the MIDI coming from your controller, clone it to two or more MIDI OUT ports if you need to send it to multiple receiving devices, and before it gets to the MODX use a processor box to split or clone or modify the events on a given channel based on type of event, Note range, etc., so you can play (control) splits and layers on the MODX without needing more than one zone on your controller.

I do all of that with my computer and DAWs and USB-MIDI. But if you're performing on stage and need a computer-less solution, something like MIDI Solutions should have you covered. And if you're already using a computer onstage for something like Cantabile, then you should be able to do all of the MIDI routing and processing you need to with the computer, making any MIDI channel restrictions a non-issue. But yeah, it smells really stinky when you first read it on paper.
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#2948472 - 09/15/18 01:09 PM Re: Yamaha MODX [Re: mojkarma]
AnotherScott Offline
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Originally Posted By: mojkarma
Of course. I'm using different performances for different parts of the songs I play on stage. However, we never heard from Yamaha why the parts have a fixed midichannel and what it is good for.

It's good because, for many uses, that's all you need (i.e. running sequences from a DAW, triggering sounds from another board that has zones and/or the ability to select different MIDI channels on the fly). Being able to vary it would provide additional flexibility, at the cost of some additional UI complication for making the settings, and some additional conceptual complexity in that you would no longer be able to assume that sound 1 will be on channel 1, etc. BTW, I believe the Roland Integra 7 module functions the same way. Each Studio Set has 16 sounds, one per channel. It seems to work fine for many people that way.

I'm not saying it wouldn't be useful to be able to change it, but I think it's a pretty specialized need, and one that I think can be solved outboard if need be.
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#2948479 - 09/15/18 01:31 PM Re: Yamaha MODX [Re: AnotherScott]
fjzingo Offline
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On the montage you can play 8 parts from the internal keyboard, but 16 parts can play at the same time. Adding a mididsolutinspedal or anipad would make all 16 parts available at the same time from the keyboard, at least in theory.....
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