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#2843014 - 03/20/17 07:19 AM Behringer OB-Xa
vonnor Offline
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Edited by vonnor (03/20/17 12:46 PM)
Edit Reason: Fixed character case in subject.
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#2843025 - 03/20/17 07:50 AM Re: Behringer OB-XA [Re: vonnor]
bennyray Offline
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I would be very interested in this if the price is right.
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#2843050 - 03/20/17 08:45 AM Re: Behringer OB-XA [Re: bennyray]
The Real MC Offline
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If the poor quality of past Behringer products is any indicator, I'm a big skeptic. There's a REASON why their products are cheap.

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#2843054 - 03/20/17 09:08 AM Re: Behringer OB-XA [Re: The Real MC]
hardware Offline
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If the Oscillators can be matched that's a big plus.
DM12 I bought was a great synth for Filters and polyphony, certainly making my son very happy.
I loved all of the features, especially HPF Boost.
But the Oscillators just didn't punch enough to replace my SE-1s.

The only 2 Oscillator hardware synths I ever liked were Oberheims.
ARP Odyssey gets great sounds but I much preferred Minimoog and 2600S because 3 Oscillators make a big difference.
OBX was the fattest 2 Oscillator synth I owned.
Which is why I'm on a short list for a Relic 6.

If Ulli B. can get the Oberheims Oscillator dialed in it would be great.
He definitely has Filters capable enough.

Hope it isn't as big as th Xa.
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#2843062 - 03/20/17 09:29 AM Re: Behringer OB-XA [Re: hardware]
Reezekeys Offline
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My OBXa is in the garage... blows a fuse on power-up. Someday I might get to it. But most repair places claim that these old beasts need major $$ rehab... like all new caps on the voice boards.

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#2843065 - 03/20/17 09:30 AM Re: Behringer OB-XA [Re: hardware]
mate stubb Online   content
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From the link:

"Originally released in 1980, the OB-Xa is a large analog synthesizer with a distinctive Oberheim sound. It can be compared sonically to the Prophet 5 from Sequential Circuits. "

WRONG.
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#2843081 - 03/20/17 10:03 AM Re: Behringer OB-XA [Re: The Real MC]
EscapeRocks Offline
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Originally Posted By: The Real MC
If the poor quality of past Behringer products is any indicator, I'm a big skeptic. There's a REASON why their products are cheap.


Their latest stuff is pretty robust. My x-air 12 mixer, and one of our sound engineers X-air XR18 mixer's are solid, and just plain work.

My older 1602 rack line mixer is also solid. Never failed me in three years of gigging.

Yeah, their older stuff was always hit or miss. I concur a lot of it was crappy.

They really have come around.
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#2843083 - 03/20/17 10:20 AM Re: Behringer OB-XA [Re: EscapeRocks]
The Real MC Offline
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Originally Posted By: EscapeRocks
They really have come around.


Heard that one before. I'm a hard sell.

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#2843084 - 03/20/17 10:22 AM Re: Behringer OB-XA [Re: Reezekeys]
The Real MC Offline
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Originally Posted By: Reezekeys
My OBXa is in the garage... blows a fuse on power-up. Someday I might get to it. But most repair places claim that these old beasts need major $$ rehab... like all new caps on the voice boards.


If my basketcase OBX is any indication, they need a lot more than that.

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#2843092 - 03/20/17 10:42 AM Re: Behringer OB-XA [Re: The Real MC]
EscapeRocks Offline
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Originally Posted By: The Real MC
Originally Posted By: EscapeRocks
They really have come around.


Heard that one before. I'm a hard sell.


I completely understand. I can only go by my experiences presently.
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#2843095 - 03/20/17 10:58 AM Re: Behringer OB-XA [Re: EscapeRocks]
RABid Offline
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It will be interesting to see how the DM holds up. Will their history continue, or will they be like Peavey and turn it around. I remember the late 80's when everything Peavey made sounded like it had a blanket over the speakers but sold because they were cheap and carried by all of the stores. Now they make some respectable amps and even a respectable electric bass guitar. Maybe Behringer will turn it around with respectable mixers and synths.
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#2843097 - 03/20/17 11:02 AM Re: Behringer OB-XA [Re: mate stubb]
Markyboard Offline
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Originally Posted By: mate stubb
From the link:

"Originally released in 1980, the OB-Xa is a large analog synthesizer with a distinctive Oberheim sound. It can be compared sonically to the Prophet 5 from Sequential Circuits. "

WRONG.


RIGHT! It's large, it's distinctive sounding and yes, it can be compared to a Prophet 5...or any other synth for that matter. You can even compare it to mushroom brie on a cracker.
keys


Edited by Markyboard (03/20/17 11:03 AM)

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#2843099 - 03/20/17 11:07 AM Re: Behringer OB-XA [Re: RABid]
KeyMoe Offline
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Originally Posted By: RABid
It will be interesting to see how the DM holds up. Will their history continue, or will they be like Peavey and turn it around. I remember the late 80's when everything Peavey made sounded like it had a blanket over the speakers but sold because they were cheap and carried by all of the stores. Now they make some respectable amps and even a respectable electric bass guitar. Maybe Behringer will turn it around with respectable mixers and synths.


Well the X32 family of mixers is a great example of turning it around. Solid, affordable and good sounding.
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#2843103 - 03/20/17 11:28 AM Re: Behringer OB-XA [Re: The Real MC]
Markyboard Offline
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Originally Posted By: The Real MC
Originally Posted By: Reezekeys
My OBXa is in the garage... blows a fuse on power-up. Someday I might get to it. But most repair places claim that these old beasts need major $$ rehab... like all new caps on the voice boards.


If my basketcase OBX is any indication, they need a lot more than that.


Interesting read - thanks! Curious, why does the CA3080 OTA come up as hard to acquire and expensive when I see multiple listings like this?? Are these different not being the original RCA type?

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#2843106 - 03/20/17 11:35 AM Re: Behringer OB-XA [Re: KeyMoe]
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I have the XR12 X Air mixer, I really like it. I haven't had it long but it sounds great, and works well with my iPad.
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#2843119 - 03/20/17 12:27 PM Re: Behringer OB-XA [Re: Markyboard]
The Real MC Offline
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Originally Posted By: Markyboard
Curious, why does the CA3080 OTA come up as hard to acquire and expensive when I see multiple listings like this?? Are these different not being the original RCA type?


Ebay is a cesspool of counterfeit parts, and the 3080 is a popular one to counterfeit. Caveat Emptor.

You can use a brand new 13700 as a dual 3080, just omit the predistortion bias and output driver and it is functionally (although not pin-for-pin replacement) the same as a 3080.

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#2843120 - 03/20/17 12:35 PM Re: Behringer OB-XA [Re: The Real MC]
Markyboard Offline
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Ah, good to know. Never came across a counterfeit part, but have read numerous stories. Thanks!

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#2843128 - 03/20/17 01:17 PM Re: Behringer OB-XA [Re: Markyboard]
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I have a bunch of CA3080s in storage that I bought over the years for projects I was going to build and never got to. I also have an envelop of CLM6000's that I acquired some years back for the same reason.
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#2843132 - 03/20/17 01:41 PM Re: Behringer OB-XA [Re: J. Dan]
aronnelson Offline
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I used to have an OB-X but what are we going to do with these replicas? Are you going to take them on gigs?
It was a good polysynth but no good for leads. Plus, mine was out of tune all the time as well.
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#2843135 - 03/20/17 01:56 PM Re: Behringer OB-XA [Re: aronnelson]
J. Dan Online   content
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Originally Posted By: aronnelson
I used to have an OB-X but what are we going to do with these replicas? Are you going to take them on gigs?
It was a good polysynth but no good for leads. Plus, mine was out of tune all the time as well.


Play Jump?
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#2843136 - 03/20/17 02:02 PM Re: Behringer OB-XA [Re: J. Dan]
Markyboard Offline
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Originally Posted By: J. Dan
Originally Posted By: aronnelson
I used to have an OB-X but what are we going to do with these replicas? Are you going to take them on gigs?
It was a good polysynth but no good for leads. Plus, mine was out of tune all the time as well.


Play Jump?


Might as well.

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#2843143 - 03/20/17 02:14 PM Re: Behringer OB-XA [Re: Markyboard]
aronnelson Offline
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>Play Jump?

Been there, done that.

BTW that free OB-X plugin found on the web sounds pretty good!

After I bought my OB-X used, I called Oberheim to get 2 more voice cards and was told - the OB-X is OBSOLETE, we have the OB-XA now. Yet they didn't have a problem selling me voice cards for $400 each. Or was it $600???


Edited by aronnelson (03/20/17 02:16 PM)
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#2843146 - 03/20/17 02:23 PM Re: Behringer OB-XA [Re: aronnelson]
The Real MC Offline
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Originally Posted By: aronnelson
mine was out of tune all the time as well.


The OBX does have its comedy of errors that contributed to tuning problems. Among them were cheap and nasty open frame trimpots, inferior opamps, circuit design errors, and the base which happened to flex which cracked the solder joints on the voicecard pins on the motherboard.

When I finished the full-bore restoration on my OBX and corrected all the faults, it was actually the most stable in-tune polysynth in my arsenal - doesn't even need a warm-up! It stays in tune better than any of my (also restored) CEM3340-equipped polysynths - Memorymoog, OBSX.

Quote:
It was a good polysynth but no good for leads.


You probably had one of the early ones which used CA3240 opamps in the glide circuits. These opamps would go bad in a way that when you turned up the glide, the voices would go out of tune.

Early ones also didn't have consistent glide rates between voices due to variances in the CA3080s in the glide circuits. The glide rates could be WAY off. Oberheim matched the 3080s in later OBX but they still weren't perfect. Some consider this "imperfection" a "feature", as imperfect glide rates could really fatten up the sound. Oberheim even duplicated this "imperfection" when they introduced digital glide in the OBSX.

A properly restored OBX is a goliath lead synth. You can get it down to one or two voices using the pan pots and an A/B footswitch.

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#2843148 - 03/20/17 02:26 PM Re: Behringer OB-XA [Re: aronnelson]
Markyboard Offline
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I haven't seen anything regarding re-issue of the CEM3360, which the OBXa uses. Wonder if Behringer is planning for this.

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#2843164 - 03/20/17 02:56 PM Re: Behringer OB-XA [Re: Markyboard]
The Real MC Offline
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Originally Posted By: Markyboard
I haven't seen anything regarding re-issue of the CEM3360, which the OBXa uses. Wonder if Behringer is planning for this.


Or the CEM3310... or the CEM3320... among other long obsolete ICs.

Spear Electronics is going to have an easier time replicating the OBX - and he's already built two.

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#2843184 - 03/20/17 03:26 PM Re: Behringer OB-XA [Re: The Real MC]
aronnelson Offline
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>A properly restored OBX is a goliath lead synth. You can get it down to one or two voices using the pan pots and an A/B footswitch.

Possibly. I used to use my OB-1's for this, but they are both broken now. Will be a major pain to debug!
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#2843196 - 03/20/17 04:02 PM Re: Behringer OB-XA [Re: aronnelson]
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I think it's really slimy of Behringer to reproduce an Oberheim synth while Tom Oberheim is still alive and well and making Oberheim synths. It's just wrong. If they worked with him like Dave did that would be another story, but to just copy his work is really lame. It's disappointing, because I was really hoping for something like this to come out from Tom because, while I like the OB6, I was hoping for more voices, but I can't see giving Behringer my money for a direct ripoff. At least the DM is dramatically different from the Juno it was inspired from.
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#2843199 - 03/20/17 04:15 PM Re: Behringer OB-XA [Re: SteeVtheRipper]
aronnelson Offline
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> but I can't see giving Behringer my money for a direct ripoff.

Welcome to the music industry. Maybe you weren't aware but MXR, ROSS all types of pedal makers copied each other freely. There are so many "versions" of a tube screamer, it boggles the mind. This type of copying is similar and has been going on for a long time. Not to mention guitars, amps etc....
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#2843201 - 03/20/17 04:25 PM Re: Behringer OB-XA [Re: aronnelson]
SteeVtheRipper Offline
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I know. I get it. But it just feels different when it's something as legendary as an Iberheim synth. A pedal or an amp doesn't seem quite as bad. I know that logic isn't sound. But the fact that Behringer could sell this very cheaply like they want to do with the mini clone could mean People may not want to buy Oberheim synths from Tom if they can get them at a fraction of the price from Behringer. It could put Tom out of business. Taking a man's life's work and selling a knockoff on the cheap while he is still alive selling his own products is just yucky.
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#2843204 - 03/20/17 04:33 PM Re: Behringer OB-XA [Re: aronnelson]
The Real MC Offline
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Originally Posted By: aronnelson
> but I can't see giving Behringer my money for a direct ripoff.

Welcome to the music industry. Maybe you weren't aware but MXR, ROSS all types of pedal makers copied each other freely. There are so many "versions" of a tube screamer, it boggles the mind. This type of copying is similar and has been going on for a long time. Not to mention guitars, amps etc....


The difference is the other copycats made copies that WORKED.

Behringer doesn't have a stellar history with products that work.

Too many stores opened brand new Behringer products that didn't work out of the box, so they stopped carrying them.

The ones that did work out of the box would eventually break in the hands of the customers, too many customers tried to dump their broken Behringer gear, word got around and nobody would buy them so stores stopped taking used Behringer gear on consignment because they were worthless.

The ones that get sent to be repaired stay broken because repair techs either can't get parts, or they got tired of fighting Behringer for reimbursement of their labor rates for warranty repairs so repair shops stopped accepting repairs on Behringer gear.

What good is copycat gear if it doesn't work new out of the box, doesn't stay working, are worthless on the used market, and you can't repair them?

I won't give any of my money to a chronic plagiarist who sells landfill fodder. I don't buy into the argument that Behringer has turned around because I have been lied to too many times.

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#2843210 - 03/20/17 04:45 PM Re: Behringer OB-XA [Re: The Real MC]
davedoerfler Online   content
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Originally Posted By: The Real MC
I won't give any of my money to a chronic plagiarist who sells landfill fodder. I don't buy into the argument that Behringer has turned around because I have been lied to too many times.


There is merit in this statement.
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#2843242 - 03/20/17 07:05 PM Re: Behringer OB-XA [Re: The Real MC]
Buzzzzzzz Offline
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Originally Posted By: The Real MC
I won't give any of my money to a chronic plagiarist who sells landfill fodder. I don't buy into the argument that Behringer has turned around because I have been lied to too many times.

That's your right as a consumer. But if you won't buy any Behringer products that are more recent or believe people who have then you don't have any factual basis for believing Behringer's reliability is as shoddy today as it once was. I think everyone knows your position on the matter - no need to belabor it.

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#2843246 - 03/20/17 07:11 PM Re: Behringer OB-XA [Re: Buzzzzzzz]
aronnelson Offline
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> Taking a man's life's work and selling a knockoff on the cheap while he is still alive selling his own products is just yucky

Yeah, I understand. I feel the same way about the Klon Centaur. Yet, he is still in business and the $50 EH clone is not putting him out of business (yet).

But to be fair, Tom is not making the OB-X (at least I don't think so).
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#2843292 - 03/20/17 09:54 PM Re: Behringer OB-XA [Re: Buzzzzzzz]
The Real MC Offline
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Originally Posted By: Buzzzzzzz
Originally Posted By: The Real MC
I won't give any of my money to a chronic plagiarist who sells landfill fodder. I don't buy into the argument that Behringer has turned around because I have been lied to too many times.

That's your right as a consumer. But if you won't buy any Behringer products that are more recent or believe people who have then you don't have any factual basis for believing Behringer's reliability is as shoddy today as it once was. I think everyone knows your position on the matter - no need to belabor it.


I have had too many personal failures with behringer products and known too many friends in the retail and performing business with the same. I have yet to meet a happy behringer customer in person, and I have been on the internet long enough to know that online reviews are hardly bastions of integrity. It is not my opinion alone as you would like to reduce it to.

The DM12 issue with a gate to tame VCA noise is a Great Big Red Flag that Behringer seems incapable of fixing an electronic challenge that has been solved since the 1970s, and all they know is how to fix the symptoms instead of curing the problem. I studied the schematic for their Minimoog clone and not only did they clone the schematics, but they also cloned the design errors that make them go out of tune.

Bearing these recent revelations provided by Uli himself, I am not so easily convinced that Behringer reliability has turned around. I have 30+ years engineering experience in military and commercial electronics as well as maintaining and improving analog synths from Minimoogs to Memorymoogs to Oberheims, all of which I modified to perform more reliably witness other members here and elsewhere to whom I have shared such knowledge. So the next time anyone wants to lecture me about lack of factual basis in an attempt to silence dissenters, you better be able to fit a man's shoes because I do not submit to shaming tactics.

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#2843295 - 03/20/17 10:09 PM Re: Behringer OB-XA [Re: The Real MC]
aronnelson Offline
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I heard they are making Curtis chips. If so, and they make it available we might be thanking them in the near future.
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#2843302 - 03/20/17 10:27 PM Re: Behringer OB-XA [Re: The Real MC]
EscapeRocks Offline
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Originally Posted By: The Real MC
blah blah blah


You seem angry that there are some of us who are having great success with the newer Behringer stuff. So on that front WHO THE f*** ARE YOU to question my integrity?

I call out good experiences when I have them and I call out bad experience as well. Right here. On this forum. I've given Behrinher a crappy review here. But once I give a good review, where I acknowledge past issues, you get spun up.

/addtotwitfilter

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#2843307 - 03/20/17 10:58 PM Re: Behringer OB-XA [Re: EscapeRocks]
Bill H. Offline
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If Behringer "has its sights set" on the OBXa, I doubt those sights are conjuring up a clone of the behemoth that we all know and love. It's much more likely to be another Eurorack module.

If it's done at all.

I have a couple of recent Behringer products - a cheap mixer that I use for karaoke and an iNuke power amp. Both have worked reliably for years. The power amp is rather amazing actually.

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#2843311 - 03/20/17 11:22 PM Re: Behringer OB-XA [Re: The Real MC]
elsongs Offline
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Is this going to be another lame-o tabletop, or is this going to be a SYNTH synth?

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#2843313 - 03/20/17 11:30 PM Re: Behringer OB-XA [Re: elsongs]
timwat Offline
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In the somewhat-related to this topic areas of business management and strategy, I teach my students that you simply do not create value ex nihilo. Not unless you are truly changing the value chain (what is too-often slapped with the label "disruptive innovation").

I'm not a believer that the DM12 competes with my OB6. But that's not because of any personal track record I have with Behringer (never owned a Behringer product). It's because I still believe there's a reason the OB6 has that price tag. Same reason my Kronos had its, and my Nord Wave, and my CP4. Those are the boards I gig the most, and I don't consider any of them as bargains. But the value is there...I just had to pay for it.

Just my 0.02.
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#2843328 - 03/21/17 01:49 AM Re: Behringer OB-XA [Re: timwat]
John Tweed Offline
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Back in the day I used one of these a lot - didn't own it, but spent enough time to become attached. The Sonic Projects OP-X that could run in the V-Machine never impressed me, but I could forgive Behringer their past sins (already have - my K3000FX amp soldiers on, but I don't gig with it ever as it's too big and heavy) if this was cheap enough. It's a rare gig these days that I would actually use something like this but it'd be fun to play with at home.
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#2843338 - 03/21/17 04:29 AM Re: Behringer OB-XA [Re: The Real MC]
Buzzzzzzz Offline
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Originally Posted By: The Real MC
So the next time anyone wants to lecture me about lack of factual basis in an attempt to silence dissenters, you better be able to fit a man's shoes because I do not submit to shaming tactics.

I have over 30 years engineering experience in commercial electronics as well. But hey, if you want to compare shoe sizes, I guess you win. You certainly know how to swing it. But just to be clear, I didn't try to shame you. I don't have to because by the attitude and lack of manners revealed by your words, you do that to yourself.

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#2843339 - 03/21/17 04:30 AM Re: Behringer OB-XA [Re: SteeVtheRipper]
joegerardi Offline
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Originally Posted By: SteeVtheRipper
I think it's really slimy of Behringer to reproduce an Oberheim synth while Tom Oberheim is still alive and well and making Oberheim synths.


So, I'm guessing you don't, and wouldn't ever use any ROMplers, because well, you know- they sample LOTS of instrument from people that are alive and well and making synths...

..Joe
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#2843340 - 03/21/17 04:34 AM Re: Behringer OB-XA [Re: SteeVtheRipper]
JB Sherry Offline
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Originally Posted By: SteeVtheRipper
I know. I get it. But it just feels different when it's something as legendary as an Iberheim synth. A pedal or an amp doesn't seem quite as bad.


Remember when Ibanez copied everything in the 70's? My guitarist had an Ibanez Les Paul copy, Ibanez pedals. But when they came out with the Iberheim XA...couldn't believe it! freak

Originally Posted By: Markyboard
Originally Posted By: J. Dan
Originally Posted By: aronnelson
I used to have an OB-X but what are we going to do with these replicas?


Play Jump?


Might as well.


How happy this made me.

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#2843342 - 03/21/17 05:04 AM Re: Behringer OB-XA [Re: Buzzzzzzz]
The Real MC Offline
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Originally Posted By: Buzzzzzzz
I don't have to because by the attitude and lack of manners revealed by your words, you do that to yourself.


You're not going to win any arguments with manipulative tactics either. And you just pulled one with the "it's all my fault and you're never to blame." And instead of addressing my assessment of Behringer's engineering skills, you resort to another manipulative one with the ad hominem tactic. If you truly are an engineer on my level, then you would had provided conclusive evidence that Behringer has indeed turned around. So far, all I have seen are ad hominem tactics so I'm not the one with issues with manners.

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#2843347 - 03/21/17 05:40 AM Re: Behringer OB-XA [Re: The Real MC]
Markay Online   content
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The internecine war of opinions seems to flare more often than not in most Behringer threads here.

FWIW my experience, n=1, with Behringer mixers and DI's has been overwhelming positive over the past five years. I also owned a Behringer K3000FX which to my ears, and based on other opinions of the Roland KC range, sounded about as good.

But someone bought it in perfect working condition within 5 days of putting thé ad up.

My take on Behringer is that they have for the first time made entry level gear available to the millions of young muscicians who are not members of this forum, and PA's to thousands of low rent venues that would not exist if they had to pay what the established players charge.

More power to them, when has à low cost alternative been something that should be run out of town?



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#2843351 - 03/21/17 05:47 AM Re: Behringer OB-XA [Re: Markay]
Markyboard Offline
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In summary...Led Zeppelin is the indisputable best touring band of all times.

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#2843353 - 03/21/17 06:00 AM Re: Behringer OB-XA [Re: Markyboard]
Markay Online   content
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I dunno, Rolling Stones, and I know everyone will agree, except Malcolm Young, who set out to show em up as having sloppy timing.
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#2843361 - 03/21/17 06:34 AM Re: Behringer OB-XA [Re: Markay]
vonnor Offline
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You guys are raping my thread. You know that, right? facepalm
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#2843367 - 03/21/17 06:50 AM Re: Behringer OB-XA [Re: vonnor]
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Time for your morning beer, Bill. You'll feel better after that. cheers
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#2843380 - 03/21/17 07:20 AM Re: Behringer OB-XA [Re: davedoerfler]
vonnor Offline
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Super-size Dunkin' coffee, baby! I feel better already! PianoBanana rockit roll thu
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#2843385 - 03/21/17 07:32 AM Re: Behringer OB-Xa [Re: vonnor]
Synthoid Offline
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Tom prefers beer with donuts... but I digress. wave
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#2843423 - 03/21/17 09:38 AM Re: Behringer OB-Xa [Re: Synthoid]
Jim Alfredson Offline
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If Tom Oberheim working in conjuction with Dave Smith can't nail the sound, what makes anyone think Uli Behringer is going to do it?

The OB6 is a great instrument but it does NOT sound as rich and big as a vintage OB-Xa. I sincerely doubt something from Behringer will either.
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#2843427 - 03/21/17 10:12 AM Re: Behringer OB-XA [Re: joegerardi]
SteeVtheRipper Offline
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That's not the same to me. A recording is not the same as copying the circuit design and functionality of a machine. A recording is a snapshot of sound spread across a keyboard that then uses computers to simulate the real thing. And a recording is never as good as the real thing. If they copied an OBXA they'd be copying the work Tom put in to design those circuits, test them all, do all the R&D, manufacture. You know what I mean? It's not the same as just taking a sample. You sit at an Oberheim and you play, you turn knobs which affect the sound in a way that was designed by a person. There's an intended interaction between the parts. An intended experience. I understand it's been done plenty of times but that doesn't make it any less lame. Do I think it's great that Vintage Vibe is making electric pianos again, yes. Do I think it's lame that they're making someone else's pianos, yes. Wouldn't it have been awesome if they designed their own rather than piggy backing on Harold Rhodes' success? Just because you can do it doesn't mean you should and just because the people want it doesn't mean they should have it. We can't always get what we want. Boo hoo I want an Arp 2600 but they're rare and super expensive. I want I want I want! Well too bad, they're rare and expensive for a reason and that makes them special. If you really want it save up and buy it. I just don't understand why everything needs to have a cheap affordable alternative. Part of what makes an arp2600 so special is that it is so rare, does sound that good, it's an elusive beast. If we all could suddenly have for for $200 wouldn't that cheapen it? Sometimes owning something is a privilege not a right.

I dunno if that all makes sense. I feel a lot of ways about it.


Originally Posted By: joegerardi
Originally Posted By: SteeVtheRipper
I think it's really slimy of Behringer to reproduce an Oberheim synth while Tom Oberheim is still alive and well and making Oberheim synths.


So, I'm guessing you don't, and wouldn't ever use any ROMplers, because well, you know- they sample LOTS of instrument from people that are alive and well and making synths...

..Joe
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#2843430 - 03/21/17 10:28 AM Re: Behringer OB-XA [Re: The Real MC]
Buzzzzzzz Offline
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Originally Posted By: The Real MC
Originally Posted By: Buzzzzzzz
I don't have to because by the attitude and lack of manners revealed by your words, you do that to yourself.


You're not going to win any arguments with manipulative tactics either. And you just pulled one with the "it's all my fault and you're never to blame." And instead of addressing my assessment of Behringer's engineering skills, you resort to another manipulative one with the ad hominem tactic. If you truly are an engineer on my level, then you would had provided conclusive evidence that Behringer has indeed turned around. So far, all I have seen are ad hominem tactics so I'm not the one with issues with manners.

Ad hominem is not applicable. I didn't really attack you or display bad manners, unless you think saying you were shaming yourself after touting your credentials to back up a claim is an attack and bad manners (and that after some provocation). Someone said you seemed angry and swore at you for questioning their integrity. I didn't see you reply to him. I guess I'm an easier target.

I would say that since YOU made the original assertion in the thread (Behringer products are still sh*t) that the burden of presenting real evidence is on you. But in the long run I doubt you would change your mind even if the data didn't back you up, whoever presented it.

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#2843434 - 03/21/17 10:37 AM Re: Behringer OB-XA [Re: Buzzzzzzz]
aronnelson Offline
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> what makes anyone think Uli Behringer is going to do it?

Because they are recreating the Curtis chip. No matter what, people will probably say it doesn't sound exactly the same, but it has a chance based on what they are doing. The first start is to get those Curtis chips made again - that's good for everyone if they make it available again. Many old keyboards can be fixed as well.

and....
>I just don't understand why everything needs to have a cheap affordable alternative.

It's always been like this EH made a living off of this. Now pedals made in China do this. Kids need affordable stuff - the patents ended long ago - this is how it works. It's not like football jersey numbers where you stop using forever.


Edited by aronnelson (03/21/17 10:39 AM)
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#2843459 - 03/21/17 12:15 PM Re: Behringer OB-XA [Re: vonnor]
MAJUSCULE Offline
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Originally Posted By: vonnor
You guys are raping derailing/ruining/laying waste to my thread. You know that, right? facepalm


Please reconsider how you use the word "rape". I know you probably didn't mean any harm.
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#2843481 - 03/21/17 01:49 PM Re: Behringer OB-XA [Re: MAJUSCULE]
allan_evett Offline
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If you ask me about 'the one that got away', I'll tell you about the OB-Xa I picked up in 1983, then sold in 1989 - for $700 cry. Probably my favorite analog polysynth of all time.

So if the UB clone is in the ballpark, and has some of the roaring depth of the OB-Xa, I'll be tempted to jump.
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#2843484 - 03/21/17 02:11 PM Re: Behringer OB-XA [Re: allan_evett]
Markyboard Offline
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Originally Posted By: allan_evett

So if the UB clone is in the ballpark, and has some of the roaring depth of the OB-Xa, I'll be tempted to jump.


Go ahead.

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#2843489 - 03/21/17 02:24 PM Re: Behringer OB-XA [Re: aronnelson]
Jim Alfredson Offline
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Originally Posted By: aronnelson
> what makes anyone think Uli Behringer is going to do it?

Because they are recreating the Curtis chip.


Curtis chips are already being made by OnChip, which is what Curtis now is. They recently re-issued the 3340.

https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=2249931

Also, this is from Doug Curtis' widow on FB:

"Many of you who are active on synth forums have recently contacted us regarding another company’s claim of producing VCO chips that are the equivalent to the CEM3340 that was used in many legendary synthesizers.

To avoid any confusion, please know that there is only one manufacturer of the authentic CEM3340 designed by my late husband, Doug Curtis. Any claims, use of this product designation, and use of the name Curtis Electromusic by other companies are made without permission from OnChip Systems (our current company name) or the Curtis Family.

As much as Doug would be humbled and so very happy about the legacy his products enjoy, we can assure you that as a person of the highest integrity he would be deeply saddened by the attempt of others to trade on his name and to make unsubstantiated claims of equivalency to his original inventions.

In his loving memory and gratitude for the community of musicians and synthesizer enthusiasts, Doug’s family is committed to making his authentic designs available as demand presents itself. Thank you for your continued support of Doug’s analog synthesizer legacy.

Mary Curtis and our daughters, Ashley and Julia"
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#2843496 - 03/21/17 02:48 PM Re: Behringer OB-XA [Re: Jim Alfredson]
timwat Offline
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Thank you for that, Jim.

It appears that some things don't change.
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#2843502 - 03/21/17 02:59 PM Re: Behringer OB-XA [Re: timwat]
Mighty Ferguson Offline
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I do sympathize with the Curtis family, but isn't the whole point of the patent system to offer a limited time monopoly for the inventor with the invention deliberately becoming public domain?
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#2843519 - 03/21/17 04:36 PM Re: Behringer OB-XA [Re: Mighty Ferguson]
SteeVtheRipper Offline
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And also if they're going to remake an OB poly why not the OBX? Isn't it considered more desirable than the XA what with the SEM architecture at its core? Even looking on eBay you can find XA's for half the price as an X, if you can find an X at all. I'd like to see them try and remake a Prophet 5 and see if Dave takes that lying down.
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#2843535 - 03/21/17 05:36 PM Re: Behringer OB-XA [Re: SteeVtheRipper]
Bill H. Offline
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^ Probably because an OBX voice card employed discrete VCOs and filters instead of Curtis chips.

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#2843544 - 03/21/17 06:40 PM Re: Behringer OB-XA [Re: Bill H.]
aronnelson Offline
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> OBX voice card employed discrete VCOs and filters instead of Curtis chips

HAHAHA you are right. I forgot about this.
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#2843674 - 03/22/17 11:50 AM Re: Behringer OB-XA [Re: aronnelson]
Buzzzzzzz Offline
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By my reading nothing that Mary Curtis said above and what Uli Behringer has said (here) contradict each other. I'm sure there's no question of the legality of what Uli is doing and it IS fully in the spirit of patent law, as Mighty Ferguson says.

Now, whether you have an ethical objection to it is a personal choice. Similarly, whether you think that Behringer can make a reliable product or not (notice that I didn't actually state a position on that in this thread). You are free to vote your conscience and your opinion on those issues with your pocket book.

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#2843682 - 03/22/17 01:12 PM Re: Behringer OB-XA [Re: Buzzzzzzz]
timwat Offline
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Originally Posted By: Buzzzzzzz
Now, whether you have an ethical objection to it is a personal choice.


Could not agree more.

My personal belief is there is a way to conduct business. Here's an example - the caption attached to a photograph of a new DSI synth, from the Curtis Electromusic Specialities' Facebook page:

"A photo from NAMM 2017: some years ago Dave Smith asked for the family’s blessing to use the Curtis name on the filter module which contains chips designed by Doug and manufactured by OnChip Systems, the successor company to Curtis Electromusic. We are so happy to have Dave extending Doug’s technology for new generations of musicians."

And I remember when it was announced (as in this
article ), that Yamaha graciously granted the Sequential Circuits name back to Dave Smith - first line of the story:

"In an unprecedented gesture of good will, Yamaha Corporation and its President, Takuya Nakata, have granted possession of the Sequential brand back to its original owner and company founder, Dave Smith. “To say that I’m grateful would be putting it mildly,” said Smith. “Generosity at this level is almost unheard of in today’s corporate climate.”

These kinds of things matter to me, and they become part of my purchase decision choices.

Everyone gets to decide what matters most to them; but I think it's worth talking about the occasions when people do what I consider to be the highest and best thing. Now, full disclosure, I teach classes on business ethics, the role of ethical stakeholders, and that sort of thing. Maybe that's why I think about this stuff in a particular way.

I want to be careful not to point fingers at anyone else's purchase decision - but I do think we are all better off when people of influence and power make the highest and best ethical business decisions.

Just my 0.02.

Tim
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#2843693 - 03/22/17 01:52 PM Re: Behringer OB-XA [Re: timwat]
Mighty Ferguson Offline
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So Tim, out of curiosity (especially with your teaching business ethics), is there a way that Behringer could do a less expensive version of these classic synths that you feel would be in line with common business ethics? I would have to assume they would not get any sort of blessing from Moog/Oberheim/Curtis. To be clear, I'm not trying to make any point with this question, just genuinely curious about how black and white this area is, or if it's a gray area at all given how old some of these designs are.
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#2843698 - 03/22/17 02:04 PM Re: Behringer OB-XA [Re: Mighty Ferguson]
timwat Offline
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That's a great question, and not saying I have the right answer, or any kind of corner on the market on business ethics. I mean, there's a reason we now have to teach an ethics component in virtually EVERY class in the common business curricula - the same reason we have Sarbannes Oxley - because "business ethics" is often an oxymoron.

That being said, I resonate with the comments that Tom Oberheim is still alive, and Dave Curtis' widow and daughters are still alive. Dave Smith took the initiative to reach out to them. Mary Curtis could have said "no". Tom Oberheim could have said "not interested". And for that matter, Takuya Nakata could have replied, "Certainly, if you pay us $xxxxxx..."

In other words, OnChip is hearing about this from alarmed customers. I'm assuming (from sheer ignorance) that neither Coolaudio nor Uli Behringer reached out to them (inferred from the tone of the OnChip / Mary Curtis statement).

Has Uli Behringer spoken to Tom Oberheim about any of the above...since Tom is still alive, and easily reachable?

To be clear, I'm certainly NOT saying that Behringer, et.al., have any LEGAL obligation per se, reason for patents and IP and such, etc. Which I don't disagree with.

But I suppose my thoughts, and what I try to teach (to both my sons and my students) - is this how you would teach your children to conduct themselves in business?

Perhaps an antiquated, parochial measuring stick. But that's my measuring stick. All the old outdated sentiments about being able to look yourself in the eye in the mirror when you're 75, that kind of thing.

No, it doesn't appear to me that Behringer is doing any illegal here, with the very little I have read here and elsewhere. But legal and ethical are always two related, though distinct, topics of exploration.

I know this doesn't answer your question very satisfactorily., sorry for that. But I do think the conversation is very much worth having - as long as we can remain civil and human in all this.

Tim
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#2843709 - 03/22/17 02:32 PM Re: Behringer OB-XA [Re: timwat]
aronnelson Offline
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This is interesting. The patents have expired and everyone involved knew that would happen eventually. They all participated knowing this.
If recreating an OBX was so important to Tom, he could have done this long ago but he didn't. Now the ARP 2600 - I am not sure about that one. It will be interesting to see the talk between Behringer and Korg.
I'm guessing the keyboards might be a "clone" but only in the same say that Studio Electronics made minimoog-like modules etc...
I really doubt it's going to look like an OB-X at all. I may be way off base though.
For me, unless it's laid out the same and looks similar it loses a lot for me.
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#2843713 - 03/22/17 02:42 PM Re: Behringer OB-XA [Re: aronnelson]
J. Dan Online   content
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Remember the DM-12 started its life as a Juno 106 clone and migrated from there. I think it's safe to say that it is a keyboard all its own and not a clone of anything at this point. If it ends up "cloning" the filters or the oscillators, how is that any different from the hundreds of synths over the years that offer multiple filter emulations to mimic certain filters?

If it is an exact replica including the name, offering no new features, that's a different story - though as mentioned, Tom Oberheim has had many decades to re-release an OBXa if he wanted to. Since when is it unethical to fill an open market space? We aren't talking about undercutting a CURRENT product with a copy made with cheaper parts and labor, as Chinese knockoff companies do every day. We're talking about a space that's been open for, what - 35 years?
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#2843725 - 03/22/17 03:19 PM Re: Behringer OB-XA [Re: aronnelson]
SteveCoscia Offline
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Originally Posted By: aronnelson
For me, unless it's laid out the same and looks similar it loses a lot for me.

Me too.

Maybe Behringer will remake a Chroma someday... always wanted one.
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#2843727 - 03/22/17 03:20 PM Re: Behringer OB-XA [Re: timwat]
davedoerfler Online   content
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Originally Posted By: timwat
because "business ethics" is often an oxymoron.


Interestingly enough I was thinking exactly this when I read your previous post, Tim, then I kept reading the thread and you brought it up yourself in your next post.
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#2843733 - 03/22/17 03:27 PM Re: Behringer OB-XA [Re: davedoerfler]
burningbusch Offline
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Patents and copyrights create a legal monopoly for the owner. The owner is granted, for a length of time established by law, exclusivity as to the market and pricing of the product, presumably long enough to recoup development costs and provide sufficient profit from his/her creation. But the expiration is designed to protect the consumer, who ultimately should pay market, not monopoly, prices. So when the patent for a drug expires, the generic drug companies come in and sell the same product at a fraction of the previous price--THAT'S A GOOD THING. Same is true with the many store brands and knockoffs you see everywhere. If someone happens to infringe, then it's up to the patent/copyright owner to take necessary action. But as a consumer it should be of no concern. Why fret about legal phantoms that don’t involve you?

I knew an importer of microphones who said a principal from Neumann would plop a “cease and desist” letter at every trade show booth that marketed anything thing resembling a Neumann product. The letter was impotent, but was their way of bullying/threatening. In Neumann’s view, those large diaphragm mics should cost $3,000, not $300.

I notice people don’t seem as concerned when some startup/kick starter comes out with a cloned Mini Moog, ARP 2600, CS80, etc, but when Behringer does it, suddenly there’s gnashing of teeth. A feel good, Samson v. Goliath-based ethics is groundless, IMO.

Here’s a Moog Prodigy recreation that just hit.
http://www.synthanatomy.com/2017/03/ensure-sound-released-prodigy-er-16.html

Busch.

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#2843738 - 03/22/17 03:31 PM Re: Behringer OB-XA [Re: davedoerfler]
timwat Offline
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Posts: 5200
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Originally Posted By: davedoerfler
Originally Posted By: timwat
because "business ethics" is often an oxymoron.


Interestingly enough I was thinking exactly this when I read your previous post, Tim, then I kept reading the thread and you brought it up yourself in your next post.


Yup, Dave. It appears I'm clearly a minority opinion on this one, which isn't surprising.

Tim
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#2843739 - 03/22/17 03:33 PM Re: Behringer OB-XA [Re: burningbusch]
davedoerfler Online   content
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Originally Posted By: burningbusch


Except (taken from the eBay page)
" The synthesizer PRODIGY ER-16 does not sound worse as original. On the contrary, it sounds just excellent." wink laugh
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#2843747 - 03/22/17 03:52 PM Re: Behringer OB-XA [Re: davedoerfler]
aronnelson Offline
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Registered: 09/04/14
Posts: 647
> Maybe Behringer will remake a Chroma someday... always wanted one

If you are serious, I think that there's a place in the SF bay area with lots of them. They approached me once about it and said they had a bunch of them lying around I guess.
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#2843762 - 03/22/17 04:35 PM Re: Behringer OB-XA [Re: aronnelson]
PianoMan51 Offline
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Registered: 02/02/10
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Loc: SE NC marsh
Originally Posted By: aronnelson
> Maybe Behringer will remake a Chroma someday... always wanted one


I auditioned a Chroma 2-3 months before the DX-7 came out. Bought the DX, and it did me great service, but I really regret not having spent the $5k or so to get the Chroma.

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#2843878 - 03/23/17 04:07 AM Re: Behringer OB-XA [Re: PianoMan51]
Markay Online   content
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Registered: 01/28/12
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Loc: Australia
I am really confused about the application of business ethics to the MI industry.

When discussing semi-conductors, replicating circuit designs that have long been in the public domain raises serious ethical issues, while in the organ world there is wide ranging support for any one who can best clone the original.

Never once have I read that anyone has ethical issues in buying something that replicates a B3 nor has anyone suggested Nord, Korg, Roland, Crumar et al should politely ask Hammond Suzuki for permission to clone their IP, which has also long been in the public domain.

Do some refuse to buy a DP that clones the sound of a C7 unless the manufacturer has written permission from Yamaha?
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#2843883 - 03/23/17 04:34 AM Re: Behringer OB-XA [Re: Markay]
Markyboard Offline
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Registered: 02/10/01
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Good point Mark. My feeling is using new/different technology from the original is fair game; duplicating an existing schematic part for part, or gate for gate in an IC chip/ASIC or line for line if we're talking code isn't. Of course there's everything in between and thus the gray area. A digital version of a true tonewheel organ is OK as is a VST. But copy someone's VST code, not too good.

One thing that stuck from my annual mandatory ethics training is to listen to your gut; if it feels wrong or slightly questionable, it probably is.

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#2843884 - 03/23/17 04:36 AM Re: Behringer OB-XA [Re: SteveCoscia]
Markyboard Offline
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Registered: 02/10/01
Posts: 4597
Loc: Springfield, Virginia
Originally Posted By: SteveCoscia

Maybe Behringer will remake a Chroma someday... always wanted one.


One thing for certain, Behringer will NEVER clone the Nord Lead. Way too easy to identify the real thing. PianoBanana

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#2843894 - 03/23/17 04:55 AM Re: Behringer OB-XA [Re: PianoMan51]
RABid Offline
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Registered: 11/01/01
Posts: 11880
Originally Posted By: PianoMan51
Originally Posted By: aronnelson
> Maybe Behringer will remake a Chroma someday... always wanted one


I auditioned a Chroma 2-3 months before the DX-7 came out. Bought the DX, and it did me great service, but I really regret not having spent the $5k or so to get the Chroma.


My favorite synth of all time. Mine went up in flames when the music store my band was practicing in burned down. Hell, I'd be happy if someone created a good VST copy with accurate programs.
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#2843966 - 03/23/17 08:14 AM Re: Behringer OB-XA [Re: timwat]
Spotting Jonah Offline
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Registered: 07/18/13
Posts: 81
Loc: Northern California
Originally Posted By: timwat
Originally Posted By: davedoerfler
[quote=timwat] because "business ethics" is often an oxymoron.


It appears I'm clearly a minority opinion on this one, which isn't surprising.


Perhaps, but certainly not alone. It's tough to apply universally, though, or else you spend all your time researching companies and product design, and not enough time living. It's a delicate balance, but I'm with you. The world would be a better place if this mattered to more people.

That's MY $.02!! :-)
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