Got my new PC4 - First impression

[Mighty Motif Max]

I'm very happy with my Moog EP-3 pedal with my PC3.

[Mighty Motif Max]

I had mentioned the need for horns. Still auditioning, but for the Chicago songs, I will probably use 1068 Trumpets Section for the main horn parts, 667 Lead Trumpet for, well, the lead trumpet line, and 675 Solo Trbn/Trpt for the Trombone

ending. Still auditioning for sax section.

 

I'm not sure what the PC4 has in the presets, but it's compatible with all the PC3 factory programs. In case you don't catch this in the other thread, I made a video of all the brass presets minus the Orchestral bank and one "Low Brass Fanfare" program. Also included are the saxophones. If you like any of these, they should work fine with the PC4.

 

[video:youtube]

 

Strings are still being auditioned as well. I have found a few that I like, but have not narrowed anything down yet. The same for Clav. I need to connect my continuous pedals to check out the Wah factor.

 

Same thing as before...I'm not sure what the factory presets are, but the PC3 had a brand new strings bank that was incredible...head and shoulders beyond any other keyboard I still have. The PC3 ROM is in the PC4, so again you should be able to load those and check them out.

[Mr. Nightime]

I ordered the Kurzweil pedal from Musician's Friend. I went with the open box, as it's going to be under foot anyway, so I don't care if it has a scratch or two.

 

Next step, learn to use the sequencer. My wife was constantly asking me after I sat down and just played, "Did you record that?" I need to learn how to set up to record very quickly, so I can get the idea down before it goes away.

[rickzjamm]

Kurz has the best strings in the industry, IMHO.

[Mr. Nightime]

I was thinking about the pedal. I remembered that I had purchased a Dunlap pedal some time ago to use as a back up. This did dual duty. It would work as an in line pedal, but also had an EXP jack.

 

On a hunch, I connected it using a TRS cable to CC1, and while not perfect, it has a very usable response.

 

When the Kurzweil pedal gets here, the Dunlap may be my WAH pedal into cc2

 

I'm thinking about setting up where the Leslie switch is controlled through SW2. I like having the switch at my left foot and operate the expression and sustain with my right foot. Probably try that tonight after I get home from rehearsal.

[Mr. Nightime]

There were some questions about the feel. I found something very interesting about the feel

 

When I'm playing my Hammond SK2, I will do smears on the top of the keys with the heel of my hand.

 

After I connected up the Dunlap Pedal I called up an Organ patch, and started playing, just for the idea of testing the pedal response.

 

I caught my self doing some smears the same as I do with the SK2. The action did really well with that

[Fleer]

Smearing, the ultimate B3 test!

[Al Coda]

When the Kurzweil pedal gets here, the Dunlap may be my WAH pedal into cc2

 

I'm thinking about setting up where the Leslie switch is controlled through SW2. I like having the switch at my left foot and operate the expression and sustain with my right foot. Probably try that tonight after I get home from rehearsal.

 

In "setup" or "multi" mode, you´ll need one of the pedals for MIDI CC#11 (expression) always and the other should toggle between "wah" and "swell (for KB3)" use and depending on "programs" used in "setups/multis".

 

A.C.

[Mr. Nightime]

I have a question for people that are familiar with the PC4

 

I've noticed that when I first started off, it would power up to program 1.

 

Then for some reason, it would change to a program that I had used. Now, I had set up a quick access page, and it will start on that page.

 

What causes the change, and how do I change it back. I'm scouring the manual trying to find the answer, but have not yet been able to.

 

Yes,, I can do a soft reset, but that's not how I want to do it. There must be something that I'm hitting that changes the power on default.

[Mr. Nightime]

I looked at the index. It says Category Default. See Default (Category).

 

OK, so I went looking for Default (Category).

 

D

Delay 3-46, 4-11.

Delete 3-71, 7-43.

Destination 7-6, 9-23.

Controller 7-20, 7-39.

Local 7-6, 7-7, 7-22, 7-8, A-1.

MIDI 7-6.

Destination Parameter 7-6, 7-14, 7-17.

 

Default is missing

[confidence]

Smearing, the ultimate B3 test!

 

So you'd suggest giving any potential organ to buy a "smear test" first, then?

[Mr. Nightime]

I figured out how to change the power on default, as well as the category default.

 

In category mode, call up the program you want as the default, the one that comes up when you hit the category button. Then press and hold the category button until the display changes and tell you it is saving the default.

 

Then if you press and hold again, it will then change the default program that comes up when powering on

 

Could not possibly be any easier.

[Fleer]

Smearing, the ultimate B3 test!

 

So you'd suggest giving any potential organ to buy a "smear test" first, then?

Yep, thread with confidence

[Mr. Nightime]

I took the PC4 for a real spin this weekend. I played in church Saturday and Sunday, and in a rehearsal Sunday.

 

On Sunday rehearsal, I bypassed my mixer, and just plugged directly into my 12" Mackie Thumps, Because they were placed in a corner along a back wall, I needed to back the mids down a bit on the Mackie.

 

In church, she did very well, but the VB3 was just a bit piercing, according to others. especially when I switched the Leslie to fast.

 

At rehearsal, When switching between piano and VB3, I had to ride the volume. But, that could just have been me. I always have a hard time hearing Hammond sounds live for some reason, and for other reasons, I was not wearing my hearing aids.

 

But, the VB3 was good enough to use on stage.

 

It was when I have to rapidly switch between sounds that there was an issue, not with the board, but with my ability to do so quickly and cleanly.

 

For this reason, I decided that I WILL be bringing my SK2 on gigs as well

 

Overall, I am very happy with my decision to get this wonderful keyboard. I foresee a long and happy relationship.

[Delaware Dave]

Not sure about the PC4 but on the PC3 there are different Hammond types, one of them is called "mellow". Try that setting if the PC4 has it, it should tame KB3.

[allan_evett]

Ronnie, glad to hear the first outing of the PC4 was successful! I have good memories of the versatility of the PC3, which I used a lot on single-keyboard gigs in 2009 through 2010; guessing I'd enjoy the PC4 even more.

 

Question: How do you find the sound decay of the pianos? Without using the pedal, does the sound resonate for at least a passable length? My acoustic upright will carry for about 17 seconds, lower mid-range, then about 10 seconds for high mid-range. While it's unrealistic to expect digital to reach that (or slightly higher, for a grand), the trend lately seems to use memory/processing to put more emphasis on front end realism, then let the envelope drop off too soon. My PC3 had a heathly balance betweeen the two, and I think that Triple-Strike piano are still very playable and usuable. So how do the PC4 pianos work for you, soundwise - especially in open, exposed - or solo - playing?

[Cabo]

How does the PC4 VB3 compare to the organ in the old K2600's? (That's the last Kurzweil I owned)

[Al Coda]

How does the PC4 VB3 compare to the organ in the old K2600's? (That's the last Kurzweil I owned)

 

You mean KB3,- isn´t it ?

 

Already the KB3 Mode in PC3 models was WAY (!) better than in previous K-models.

 

I´d say, in a PC4, KB3 is sonically and parameter wise the same,- except in opposite to PC3, KB3 in PC4 doesn´t steal ressources from other engines,- think polyphony and FX.

In a PC3, when you use the "double leslie" FX-chain,- it eats ALL the available DSP ressources for FX.

Not in a Forte and PC4 model !

 

AFAIK, KB3 in PC3, Forte and PC4 share the same other disadvantages still:

 

1:) percussion running thru C/V (Kurz should make that user selectable,- perc thru C/V or NOT)

2.) C/V depth not individually user adjustable according to the pre-programmed selections C1, C2, C3 and V1,V2,V3

3.) rotary emulation: mic settings miss "mic distance" parameters

4.) rotary emulation: still introduces too much pitch modulation in doppler effect

5.) no "leslie power amp" overdrive simulation

 

For me, these are important because I don´t want to use "double-leslie" always just only to mask these disadvantages.

I´d prefer a single leslie emulation doin´ it right out of the box.

 

I use a PC361 since somewhere 2011 and I´m still tinkering w/ this internal leslie sim.

I got usable results though,- but it´s time consuming and never comes close to a Neo Vent or such.

OTOH,- some special stuff like organ w/o leslie at all and running into OD/Dist w/ cab sim, phasor, chorus, ringmod and/or wah and in a combo and sequential order you want,- that´s where it shines.

 

Nonetheless, it´s one of the best clonewheel emulations in a workstation keyboard, possibly together w/ the one in KORG Kronos.

 

A.C.

[Mighty Motif Max]

In church, she did very well, but the VB3 was just a bit piercing, according to others. especially when I switched the Leslie to fast.

 

At rehearsal, When switching between piano and VB3, I had to ride the volume. But, that could just have been me. I always have a hard time hearing Hammond sounds live for some reason, and for other reasons, I was not wearing my hearing aids.

 

Nah, it's not just you. I really noticed this when I did the single gig I got to do with my PC3 at church in a band. That KB3 sounds great but it can instantly overpower everything. It's significantly louder than the other programs and it cuts through very easily. Particularly with the leslie on fast, as you noted. EQ and level balancing across the sounds you will be using for the gig are your friend lol.

[Delaware Dave]

 

1:) percussion running thru C/V (Kurz should make that user selectable,- perc thru C/V or NOT)

3.) rotary emulation: mic settings miss "mic distance" parameters A.C.

 

For #1 I would disagree; I can't think of a reason why I would want percussion through the C/V while trying to emulate a Hammond, this just needs to be fixed, period.

For #3 try LoGain and HiGain parameters. Pseudo mic distance settings. Not exact but it kind of gets you there. Would agree that Mic distance settings are actually what is needed.

 

An upgraded leslie sim physical model would also be nice. Connecting a Vent or a Burn as a leslie sim actually produces a decent organ; except for the C/V which is too phasey (I use C1) and the percussion going through the C/V. A couple of small upgrades and the organ/leslie would be very good for a workstation.

[Mr. Nightime]

My church has a really nice 7' grand. I did a comparison between the grand and the PC4. The decay is very similar. By far my favorite part of the AP sounds is the string resonance. That adds more realism to the sound

 

As far as the "VB3" I was using the bottom 3 program, and adjusting the drawbars from there.

 

While it does sound great, and is very usable, I will still bring out my SK2 and Vent. The ability to go from piano to organ without thinking is important to me. Yes, I could set up a split, but I like having the full range of both instruments.

 

I have not yet tried the VB3 through my Vent.

[Delaware Dave]

My church has a really nice 7' grand. I did a comparison between the grand and the PC4. The decay is very similar. By far my favorite part of the AP sounds is the string resonance. That adds more realism to the sound

 

As far as the "VB3" I was using the bottom 3 program, and adjusting the drawbars from there.

 

While it does sound great, and is very usable, I will still bring out my SK2 and Vent. The ability to go from piano to organ without thinking is important to me. Yes, I could set up a split, but I like having the full range of both instruments.

 

I have not yet tried the VB3 through my Vent.

VB3 is what the Mojo is based on: For Kurzweil, the equivalent is KB3

[rockinroller]

I had a PC4 for a couple of days, then returned it. I HATED the key bed (very clunky IMO, compared to my Artis 7 and previous PC3 with the Fatar TP-8 semi-weighted keys (perfect hybrid for us organ + synth + piano players). The other big feature on their flagship Forte board and my Artis 7 is a quicker-than-Quick Access series of 10 buttons right in front of the center of the keys, close to the key bed, that I have found invaluable when switching settings quickly. I've assigned 10 settings, both in the Programs mode as well as Multi (so 20 in all), and that's been the single biggest reason I have struggled with the notion of replacing the Artis 7. Although I am being challenged with the recent announcement of the PC4-7 with the lighter, semi weighted keys.

[Delaware Dave]

Yep, love quick access. Actually I run my keyboard only in quick access; quite the cool feature. The PC4-7 keybed is a wild card; I don't think anyone knows what the feel of it is. That will likely decide how the keyboard plays out.

[rockinredeye]

Quick Access on gigs for me. On a lot of our songs, I'll play more than one sound. So, I have a Setup (multi) for every song and it is named after the song. Before a gig, I'll put the forty-plus songs into Quick Access on my PC3 and there's the list in front of me. Very convenient. Takes maybe ten minutes to put in the entire night's songs. And I label each set of ten with the venue name (bar, festival,etc.), then A or B or C at the end. I can look back to 2010 and tell where I played. As to how many sets of ten, I've used way more than fifty. I think it's an estimate and is really related to memory usage, not the number of entrees. The PC4-7 is almost half the weight of my PC3-7 and is very tempting.

[Moonglow]

I had a PC4 for a couple of days, then returned it. I HATED the key bed (very clunky IMO, compared to my Artis 7 and previous PC3 with the Fatar TP-8 semi-weighted keys (perfect hybrid for us organ + synth + piano players). The other big feature on their flagship Forte board and my Artis 7 is a quicker-than-Quick Access series of 10 buttons right in front of the center of the keys, close to the key bed, that I have found invaluable when switching settings quickly. I've assigned 10 settings, both in the Programs mode as well as Multi (so 20 in all), and that's been the single biggest reason I have struggled with the notion of replacing the Artis 7. Although I am being challenged with the recent announcement of the PC4-7 with the lighter, semi weighted keys.

As another long-time Kurweil owner (PC-88mx, K2600x, PC-3x), I too was very disappointed in the action. I found it to have this weird bouncy thing going on. The PC-4 I tried was at Gearfest and appeared to be a beta unit (it was not fully populated with programs and had a few apparent bugs), so I'm hoping that was at least part of the issue. I really want to like this axe, as it does check a lot of boxes. I'm also a little gun-shy with Kurzweil due to a failed LCD display on my PC-3. I'm sure I will give the PC-4 another whirl at some point (I live less than two hours from Sweetwater). Hoping for a better experience.

[ElmerJFudd]

Possibly related to positioning of the aftertouch strip?

[Fleer]

After returning my MODX8 I was very pleased to find the PC4 action entirely up to my liking. It"s a personal thing, of course, but as a piano player i prefer it to the Forte, though I understand why people prefer the latter for organ duties. All in all, Medeli has done a fine job on the PC4 keybed.

[Al Coda]

As another long-time Kurweil owner (PC-88mx, K2600x, PC-3x), I too was very disappointed in the action. I found it to have this weird bouncy thing going on.

 

The Fatar TP40 L (Kurz PC3 (K) or 88 and Forte 7/8,- M (NORD Stage) or H/GH,- also bounce back @key release.

Even these are considered to be the "better actions",- they are sluggish nonetheless.

 

I imagine the "clunkyness" of the Medelli action comes from the plastic case when keys bottom out and make louder noise than in a different case.

Sometimes key-landing felts are harder than others in other keybeds and produce more noise.

I can accept when an action bottoms out harder and makes more noise, WHEN the finger to ear connection is right and fast triplet repetitions are possible.

But what I really hate is when keys bounce back @key release.

Any good piano action doesn´t and my old Roland/Rhodes MK80 doesn´t too.

Even the latter as also acoustic pianos doesn´t offer aftertouch,- I don´t see any relation between bouncing keys and the existence of AT or positioning of the strips.

 

The main problem w/ AT is, finding the right balance triggering it.

Mostly it kicks in too early or you break your fingers or keys to get an audible/ musical result.

But it´s doable !

 

I'm also a little gun-shy with Kurzweil due to a failed LCD display on my PC-3.

 

Well, I often had issues w/ the PC3´s original PW and MW pots,- but the display is alive since 2011,- sliders, switches, keys, backpanel connectors too.

In fact, I enjoy it has a metal case and built in PSU.

 

I wanted the Forte7,- but it has no ribbon controller input.

 

Now the ribbon controller input is back on PC4,- but it has plastic case, ext. PSU and obviously less good action (for the most).

 

I think we´re on the way to the next true KURZ flagship keyboard instrument,- they just only have to sell more,- so lightweight plastic case, related action and ext. PSU is what we get NOW and for moderate prices.

But I´m confident we´ll see something w/ metal case, int. PSU, all the features actual KURZ keyboards offer and more,- and a premiuim action as well,- "soon".

It will cost significantly more though.

 

For the time being, I´d wish they come w/ a 61-keys PC4 I can use as MIDI slave or better,- a PC4 desktop or rack,- so I don´t have to play the compromise actions.

 

 

A.C.

[Moonglow]

As another long-time Kurweil owner (PC-88mx, K2600x, PC-3x), I too was very disappointed in the action. I found it to have this weird bouncy thing going on.

 

The Fatar TP40 L (Kurz PC3 (K) or 88 and Forte 7/8,- M (NORD Stage) or H/GH,- also bounce back @key release.

Even these are considered to be the "better actions",- they are sluggish nonetheless.

Yep, fully agree regarding the PC-3x. It took some adjusting, but eventually I was able to get on with it. Unfortunately, the PC-4 exceeded my "bounciness threshold." I am looking forward to trying it again. Maybe I was having a bad day...