Lyrically Rhythmic

[Suss]

Hi Guys,

 

More than anything in music, I believe we musicians should always remember that individual efforts, expressions and performances are only one facet in an overall team effort whether on stage or in the studio.

 

I am not a proficient keyboard player since I recoiled from being force fed that discipline by my parents when I was younger. Instead, Im a drummer who appreciates the melodious aspects of music above simply bashing out a groove or seeking to make a name for myself. Ive always believed that the gifts of a man will make room for him and brings him before great men.

 

While monitoring another thread here [is it too early to talk about KC Comp Volume 12?], I was asked the question does a good drummer think lyrically as well as rhythmically? Is there room to breathe?

 

Gangsu admitted I've been thinking about drummers a lot lately, actually. Wondering why they make me feel like I have to straighten up and toe the line. I don't think my rhythm is that bad. I like to imagine it doesn't have to be that way, that machine-like precision is not the greater skill.

 

http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/ubb/get_topic/f/18/t/019132/p/9.html#000285

 

Gangsu, you raised a very good point that I often discuss among drummers on Billy Cobhams website [ http://www.billycobham.com ]. Namely discerning the difference between pulling out all the stops when appropriate and shutting most of them down when appropriate. In other words, a real drummer thinks BOTH lyrically and rhythmically; that drummer thinks MUSICALLY both in concept and application! I think that is what separates the good from the bad, regardless of the instrument being played.

 

Of course experience in a variety of settings is the best teacher. Though woodshedding (Slang. To practice on a musical instrument.) definitely teaches the principles, its the real time demands of the stage or studio that hones the skills. It takes time and patience for maturity to occur (sometimes longer for others and almost nascent among some younger in age these days). I think that the internet and the wide variety of information so readily available these days has afforded a less steep learning curve for those truly called to whatever profession they choose in life. Yet even there, people must listen and learn from each other.

 

Of course, on any instrument, we have weekend warriors, as well as armchair theorizers! You know, the Monday night football types who rant and rave about what should have been done during a certain play. Therell always be those types, but I think among the community of musicians who seek to bring integrity to their craft, there is always room for growth with camaraderie. In one phrase, its called a team effort!

 

So having said that (and in concert with you Gangsu), I really dont believe that machine like precision (something that insensitive drummers with off the wall chops tend to do all the time) is the greater skill at all. The greater skill, in my opinion, is to contribute melodically, lyrically, rhythmically and definitely musically to what is going on after listening to joint efforts. And youre right Gangsu: it doesnt have to be that way, but if anyone toes a line (or even throws out a line to be towed), it should be that once out in the open ocean we all have a safe port to return to together!

 

My most recent group in Atlanta, GA, was the Guild of Sound. Heres a track that we recorded live back in January of 2005. The second link is an Adobe PDF of the chart provided to us by one of our guitar players at the time (Steve Freeman; the composer of "CONCEPTION") - you'll need Adobe's free reader to open this file).

 

Youll note that the chart is not the typical drum notation used by some copyists, but rather one encompassing the music and puts the onus upon the drummer to understand melody, chord progressions and inversions along with the rhythm. I hope youll enjoy downloading and listening to all of the spaces left by me as the drummer so that others on stage (keyboardist, two guitars, alto sax (reed)/woodwinds/flute, bass & drums) could create within their musical roles.

 

http://www.johnsussewell.com/Conception-GuildofSound-ATL-GA.mp3

 

http://www.johnsussewell.com/SFreeman-Conception-GuildofSound-ATL.pdf (Adobe PDF)

 

By the way heres a pic that I took of Steve during one of our Guild of Sound rehearsals.

 

http://www.johnsussewell.com/SteveFreeman-Apr2004.jpg

 

And heres a pic of me taken just last Friday night when I simply went out with friends to hear a great band: Zodiac:

 

http://www.johnsussewell.com/Suss120106.jpg

 

My start in the mainstream recording scene of NYC was with Donny Hathaway (1973). I worked with him for nearly two years on the road, while the following was recorded live at Carnegie Hall and re-released in 2004 by Rhino Records. Not a ballad at all this time, but an up front in your face 880 yard relay race to the finish line.

 

http://www.johnsussewell.com/valdez.mp3

 

More tracks and info can be found on my website at http://www.johnsussewell.com.

 

Altogether, you raised an excellent point Gangsu. You inspired me for the opportunity to share my thoughts on the same issue.

 

I hope others chime in here with their views. Afterall, I dont think any of us alive ever stop being students!

 

Suss Out... no sussed in I hope!

[jackpine]

Amen brother!!!!!

[gangsu]

Wow, Suss. I'm heartened, and honoured to read your thoughts. Many thanks for taking a small question and giving back so much!

 

I'm delighted to have more of your music to listen to. As soon as I'm not so tied for time (not to mention tongue-tied for words)..

 

That's one good looking dude giving us the thumbs up. Sorry, that's the first thing that comes to mind.

 

Blessings on your house!

[Suss]

You are quite welcome Gangsu! Your question made me think and I simply followed through in due fashion. Yeah, enjoy the music when you get a chance.

 

And Jim! What would any of us be without Wisconsin!

 

Blessings upon you both!

 

[Suss]

Hey Gangsu & Linwood!

 

I've noticed that there is very little interest here in the Keyboard Corner about what a drummer has to say about being lyrical in support of you Guys & Gals do on the melodic instruments.

 

No problem at all, given the vast variety of input that is posted on a day to day basis.

 

I've also noticed that Dave Bryce has yet to acknowledge anything that I've written in several threads and credit this to him simply being overworked, overwrought & out of time.

 

So..., I give this thread a track I did with Diana Ross, when Ashford & Simpson both wrote and produced the tune with me on the entire album: "The Boss!"

 

When one speaks about being lyrical... the drummer needs to be sensitive to every contributor in the studio or on stage. Whether it's a ballad or "all balls out,", everyone still needs to listen to each other and respond in REAL TIME. Heck... even if a small trio is in a lounge somewhere, we drummers still need to listen to everyone and respond musically. And guess what (?)... the rest of the ensemble will follow in "concert/agreement" when that happens. That's my attitude anyway.

 

You keyboardists put the sparkle back into my eyes & SMILE! (w/yours truly on drums for Diana).

 

And GANGSU... this is for YOU since "everything must live; everyone must breathe:" (taken from the lyrics in this tune "SPARKLE"): Enjoy, while knowing this is how THIS drummer approaches music.

 

http://www.johnsussewell.com/Sparkle-DianaRossTheBoss.mp3

 

Have a blessed holiday season Everyone while remembering that the next day can be better than the one we just survived.

 

Agape Love!

 

Suss!

 

P.S. Special thanks to Linwood & Gangsu! I love you guys in a brotherly way, along with ALL who post here considering the global effects of indifference.

 

P.P.S. It may not be your cup of tea, but at least it simmers to bitter sweet! Kind of like Life, isn't it

[Tusker]

Well, I was blown away by your post. Dunno what to say except ...

 

It's not my place to comment but ...

 

I remember first listening to early Phil Collins recordings with Genesis. I was struck by how logically the groove turned into a lyrical melody and back again. The energy from the groove was not lost when placed in support of melody. It was transformed and re-channeled. Later I saw that in a number of quality fusion groups (Weather Report, Pat Metheny Group for example) It's a kind of orchestral perspective where, melody, timbre, groove, etc. all have their varied moments in the spotlight. A good drummer moves the point of focus gracefully.

 

When you speak of "breathing" that's what comes to mind. Best,

 

Jerry

[BluesKeys]

Suss, first of all thank you for your insight and FINE music talents. I cannot speak for all here but I have only worked with a select few drummers with the same insight as you. More often it seems a drummer is so intent on being a metronome that he shuts out the rest of the band.

 

I have the good fortune to be working with a young drummer in one of my bands that acually listens to the movement of the song and or catches those subtle accents that the rest of us add and enhances them. What a joy it for the players as well as the audience to see that energy flowing on stage.

 

Thanks also for the tunes.

[soundscape]

Originally posted by Suss:

And GANGSU... this is for YOU since "everything must live; everyone must breathe:" (taken from the lyrics in this tune "SPARKLE"): Enjoy, while knowing this is how THIS drummer approaches music.

 

http://www.johnsussewell.com/Sparkle-DianaRossTheBoss.mp3

Fantastic. Thanks for posting and your mature yet positive outlook on everything.

 

Excellent advice for all musicians.

[linwood]

Suss, It's always good to see you post here with us. I'm with ya...the interaction between us on the bandstand is what makes it all worthwhile. I've played all my life and with several drummers, but there were two along the way that taught me so much about time and dynamics. It's amazing what you can learn if you simply listen.

[Suss]

Thank you Guys

 

I was beginning to feel that there was no interest in music any longer when musical drummers so desire to support the efforts of great keyboardists and the community anywhere among musicians (regardless of what instrument we play).

 

At this point my shoutout goes to Tusker (Jerry), BluesKeys (Jim) and Soundscape (though I wonder about the avatar with you Soundscape? is that you or simply a mockup/makeup?... I need to be careful here lest I think something different! LOL~!).

 

Jerry (Tusker) I think I know you. Have we met in the business somewhere? If not, please forgive my lapse in memory. Werent you a label exec decades ago as well as playing on a number of session records? Send me a private message. Ive enabled notifications for all responses, but that is happenstance.

 

For now, anyway, here are the lyrics to the link provided hereinbefore:

 

Sparkle Diana Ross/Motown/c.1979

 

Intro/scat & setup

 

You put the sparkle back in my smile

You made me want to walk a thousand miles

You let me know that its so

 

And everything must live

Everything must breathe

Now you say you must leave.

 

You put the sparkle back in my smile

You made me want to walk a thousand miles

You let me know that its so

 

And everything must live

Everything must breathe

Now you say you must leave.

 

Just the other day

You seemed so content

Its a joy you thought it up on the spur of the moment (ooh Baby)

 

Please ease my mind

Come on set it right

Cause if you dont

I wont sleep a wink tonight

 

You put the sparkle back in my smile (ooh Baby)

You made me want to walk a thousand miles

You let me know that its so. (ooo)

 

Everything must live

Everything must breathe

now you say you must leave.

 

(etude w/Michael Brecker on alto sax)

You let me know that its so.

 

Vamp

And Everything must live

Everything must breathe.

 

Overall, my view these daze (no typo) is that many younger drummers want to go for the gusto without learning the basics of an ensemble and the teamwork required. Its like some guys burn out before they get out of count 1. That is sad though I will say that Billy Cobham, Max Roach, Idris Mohammed, Don Alias, Steve Gadd, Mitch Mitchell (Hendrix), Bernard Purdie all of whom Ive met and was so enthralled by in my early years (et. al.) contributed so much to my musical maturity that I cannot put it into words except just let my industry contributions speak for themselves. Then there are drumming Guys like Roy Haines, Joe Morello, Tony Williams (Oh so Tony!) with Jack DeJoinnette, Dennis Chambers, Dave Weckl, Buddy Rich, Louie Bellson, Gene Krupa, etc., et. al., that makes me feel like a peel on an onion skin.

 

Simply said it is inexhaustible when influences come to mind from a drumming point of view. Yet Im still a VERY frustrated keyboardist. I never should have abandoned that instrument in spite of parental overbearance and vicariousness.

 

Im about to be a grandfather on or about this coming January 25, 2007. I will never live vicariously through my eyes when only assisting/supporting the opening of my grandchilds eyes and future!

 

As for me Im living and grateful for it. Im breathing and thankful for it. My heart and prayers go out for everyone who knows someone that is either reclining in health or putting their life on the line in global conflicts. Im serious, but Im jovial also because this crap is going to end soon.

 

Hey Linwood thank you so much for your referral here. I love you Man! And when that CD comes out among the contributors here, please let me know. Im doing OK, but my heart (not spirit) is broken... hence the lyrics of Sparkle as sung by Diana Ross with the support of Nick Ashford, Valerie Simpson, Ray Chew, Eric Gale, Anthony Jackson, Francisco Centano, Sammy Figuerora, Errol Bennett, Michael Brecker, Ulanda McCullough, Raymond Simpson w/Yours Truly on drums are surrendered here. No doubt there are a lot of other names among the staff that supported this release, as there are on any release put out these daze! Yet Im only speaking about the musically creative side of things!

 

Thanks Guys youve made my day in such a simple way! [and to think I could have been on a Steeley Dan record when recording this one at Sigma Sound in NYC. Donald Fagin wanted me to record a few tunes for him! - - - Guess who wound up doing it ?: Bernard Purdie! We were in studio A and S.Dan was in studio B at Sigma! See my website for pics of Bernard and me only three years ago when we joked about that incident! He knew what he did, and all I could do was respect the most recorded drummer in industry history.

 

All in good fun guys theres room for everyone if any of us get out of the tunnel and encourage others toward the horizon.

 

Agape!

 

Suss!

[gangsu]

Originally posted by Suss:

Hey Gangsu & Linwood!

Hey Suss!! And hey you too, linwood! I feel like such a bro.

 

I'm finally listening to Conception. Looking at the score alone, I couldn't see the music. You know, I suspect I get a bit ahead of myself. Just because I can read off the Great American Songbook doesn't make me a musician. This is in a whole other league. (no copyright worries here!) It's a memorable tune, and evolves beautifully. Thanks, Suss. It's my current favorite.

 

I've got plans with a drummer/percussionist I worked with recently to stretch the boundaries a little. I think we've inspired eachother, which is cool. He's into jazz cats I'd never have heard of it weren't for this forum. And your personal insights have fueled some interesting conversations. I guess we are all in this together.

 

I've been on your website all morning and have barely scratched the surface. But know that I'm out here paying attention. Thanks again!

[K K]

Hi Suss,

 

Quite interesting to read about a "lyrically rhythmic" point of view from a drummer. I guess I wasn't very lucky with drummers who were good at dynamics.

 

When I was in progressive rock tribute bands more than a decade ago, I've played with several drummers. Some of them had extraordinary technical abilities to play the most complex stuff in that style (emulating to their best guys like Bill Bruford, Terry Bozzio, Carl Palmer, etc.) but most of them lacked in the dynamics aspect. It's great to play fast and difficult passages on drums, yes, but only a few of them could play with the right dynamics. And to me, dynamics is as important on drums than with any other instrument.

 

The two best drummers I've worked with had that : good technique and good dynamics. I guess that's what needed to play, as you say, "lyrically". One of them was an old friend of mine. There was that unique energy filling the room or stage we played (whether in concert or just practicing) because he could make his drums sound more alive, more dramatic, using intelligent ideas and dynamics. He was far from being the most technical guy I've played with - but certainly the most "emotionally musical". It's very sad that he can't play anymore.

 

The other drummer I really enjoyed most to play with was from a different school - jazz. It was during the time I was bored with tribute bands and wanted to explore new styles. I can't say I'm good at jazz, but I really enjoyed playing with him. He had that jazz technique I wasn't accustomed to see and hear, those particular quietly buzzing rolls and use of brushes were new to me and made me realize about softer dynamics possible for drums - it was a great time to discover for me.

 

I am sure you are way beyond that, since you play professionally in big cities. I just wanted to share with you that if you are as good as dynamics as with the pure "tempo aspects" of drums technique, you must be an excellent drummer.

 

A last comment now on an aspect I find very important : the way a drummer tunes his instrument. That may sound silly, and it's probably more standard in jazz to tune drums, but believe me, I had my share of headaches playing with drummers tuning their drums too high and playing with no dynamics (always fortissimo). That again, was told to me by the jazz fellow drummer I played with.

 

I'll conclude my long post saying one of the guys that impresses me with his drums is Chester Thompson. Not too technical for its own sake, never too loud, with superb dynamics, and a very dramatic drum sound. Maybe you could tell on the spot what kind of drums he uses by the sound. If you don't know him, try to rent the DVD called "Steve Hackett with Friends (live)" from around 1996. SH was Genesis' guitarist, in that concert he's playing with great fellow musicians like John Wetton (bass), Ian McDonald (ex King Crimson), etc. On the DVD there's a piece called "Shadow Of The Hierophant", where you can see and hear Mr. Thomson play perfectly and do a solo which to me sounds very "dramatic", thanks to his knowledge of playing "lyrically rhythmic", as you say. Nothing too complicated, even though the guy could have added five times more technique, he's just using an enormous amount of feeling to express himself, and to me that sounds a hundred times better.

 

Sorry for the long text. Just wanted to share about my very small but exciting experience with drummers.

[Griffinator]

What a great discussion!

 

Yes, while we all as players strive towards increasingly complex and difficult chops and riffs, the responsibility to support the vocalist during his part of the song is absolutely crucial for all members of the band. The guitarist has no more place wanking off on a solo during a verse than a tuba player would have of blasting a big bottom riff during the string section's pianissimo passage...

 

Having every member of a functioning modern music band (be it jazz, metal, or anything in between) understanding the need to support the lyric, which is ultimately the focal point of any song with a vocalist, is far more important than having every member be virtuoso at their given instrument.

 

Although it could be said that one has not acheived true virtuosity until one understands their place in a given song, and acts accordingly...

 

As to highly technical drummers in this context, I've always appreciated Neil Peart's affinity for directly accenting the vocal passages in Rush's material, be it with cymbal stabs, tom rolls, or whatever, he really drives home those lyrics with well placed shots!

[gangsu]

http://www.johnsussewell.com/Sparkle-DianaRossTheBoss.mp3

 

Nice way to start the day!

 

I'm feeling more and more compelled to get inside "my new drummer"'s head. He's a different guy.. well for one thing he doesn't drink beer. I didn't know there was such a creature. And he has a PhD in geomorphology/hydrology. Hadn't heard of that either. He has very small handwriting, and his socks always match.

 

But I think there's hope!

 

Suss, I hope you're having a good day.

[K K]

Originally posted by gangsu:

...his socks always match.

You mean I can't wear white socks with a tux?

 

[gangsu]

Hey Cydonia! You can, but you're special.

 

You were talking about well-tuned drums. Makes perfect sense, but I've never taken notice.

 

Although I do notice when a finger cymbal is in perfect tune. Do you suppose a good drummer carries a set of 12?

 

Just being silly. I think it's Darren's fault.

[Darren Landrum]

Sure, blame it on me. I guess Sue has now forced me to reply to this thread.

 

I guess as a drummer, all I can give are personal experiences. Good timing and precision are essential, but they are not the end-all, and it's easy to get caught up in the trap of needing robotic precision in one's timing in order to be a good drummer. It's simply not true.

 

On the other hand, the line between having a loose feel and playing which is riddled with timing errors is a very fine one. It becomes difficult to balance feel and precision without sounding sloppy sometimes. I still have major issues with it, especially now as I have only been behind a drum kit once in the past three years.

 

(As an aside, I'm hoping to fix that this spring, when I can get the basement cleared out and get my studio built. In the meantime, I want to buy a practice pad and a pair of sticks, so I can at least practice something, which I should've been doing this entire time anyway.)

 

That's about all that's on my mind for now.

[Darren Landrum]

I guess I should add something about dynamics as well, since this is something lost on so many rock drummers who seem to think their instrument sounds best when struck as if they're demolishing a cinder-block wall. I actually hit the drums fairly softly, all things considered, and Dafduc can confirm that. I'm not a hard hitter at all. This allows me, I think, a lot of control over my dynamics, as I can save the hard hits for the few times here and there that they would really count. I actually learned that lesson very early on.

 

I should also note that I am 100% self-taught.

[K K]

Originally posted by Darren Landrum:

...their instrument sounds best when struck as if they're demolishing a cinder-block wall.

I like that allusion.

 

Originally posted by Darren Landrum:

I should also note that I am 100% self-taught.

It's OK, since you're a drummer, we can forgive you on that.

[Darren Landrum]

I'm 100% self-taught on everything I play, except piano, where I am 95% self-taught (I had a few lessons here and there). Although I usually credit my lack of skill in most of these instruments to my lack of lessons, in reality, it's because I don't practice often enough to make a difference. I really need to fix that.

[K K]

Originally posted by Darren Landrum:

I'm 100% self-taught on everything I play, except piano, where I am 95% self-taught (I had a few lessons here and there).

Don't worry, I never took piano lessons either ever. A looooong time ago, I had the brilliant idea, after I heard Chopin's Fantaisie Impromptu on a 78 RPM (kind of a really old type of vinyl record my mother had), to learn the piece by myself because I liked it so much.

 

So I went to buy the score and started to learn music by myself. I don't recommend that very long road to anyone. It worked for me, because I'm kind of crazy I guess.

 

Then I learned other styles, blablabla, but it's waaaaay off topic and too long to write. Just wanted to share on the Internet world I'm just a self-taught keyboardist. Waiting for the cyber-tomatoes now.

[Darren Landrum]

I'm well familiar with 78 RPM lacquer discs, actually. I could just about teach a class on recording systems, mediums and techniques from the very earliest wax cylinders up to today. I even have a schematic and plans for making a wire recorder somewhere. I doubt I'll ever make that into a project, though.

 

Trivia: The 45 RPM disc was designed to have the same playback time per side as a 78 RPM lacquer disc. It was intended as the direct descendant of the lacquer discs, actually. The 33 1/3 RPM LP, on the other hand, was trying to be a new, theoretically superior idea. They existed as competitors until it was discovered that they could co-exist in the market.

 

Except I can't remember what company was behind which technology. Some professor I'm turning out to be.

 

PS -- Sorry for taking this whole thread way off-topic.

[K K]

And I thought I was the only dinosaur left here to know about 78 RPMs...

 

We must be old.

[Darren Landrum]

I turned 30 almost 6 months ago.

 

One of my mom's pieces of furniture is an old hand-crank record player, all acoustic in nature, that plays lacquer 78s. I've used it a few times. We used to have a collection of the original recordings of the various American history songs performed by their songwriter before Johnny Horton made them famous (Battle of New Orleans, Sink the Bismarck, and the like), but they got lost in a move somewhere. That still annoys me to this day.

 

Sorry for completely derailing your thread, Suss.

[gangsu]

Darren, thanks for addressing the issue of "robotic precision". All music does not play off the basic beat. It might just be a longer unit, like maybe a chord progression or a melodic phrase.. !

 

All I know is, when I'm singing along under my breath, and somebody makes me feel like I have no choice but to hitch a ride, it's not always fun.

 

My drummer only gave me that nagging feeling once. Either we've both gravitated to middle ground, or one of us has taken over, or neither of us is listening.

 

Cydonia, re the self-taught thing: anybody who's in it for the long haul reaches a point where they have to start figuring things out for themselves. You just got a head start. No wonder you leave a lot of "music teachers" in the dust.

 

So, should I start worrying about Suss, or do you think maybe he's got something better to do?

[K K]

Originally posted by gangsu:

Cydonia, re the self-taught thing: anybody who's in it for the long haul reaches a point where they have to start figuring things out for themselves. You just got a head start. No wonder you leave a lot of "music teachers" in the dust.

 

So, should I start worrying about Suss, or do you think maybe he's got something better to do?

Sue, what's funny is that (at least that's what I sincerely believe) after a lot of self-practice, I ended up using a technique that's probably different from the academic one, but which has the same basics (use of arm weight, etc.). Even if this may sound like bragging (and God knows how I hate people like that), I don't count the times people were impressed to hear I had never follow any piano class after they asked me. Many actually thought I was joking or lying at them.

 

About Suss, I wouldn't worry too much, this guy is a pro and is probably ten times more busy than us. I'll be happy to read his response to our experiences with drummers though.

[gangsu]

Cydonia, it's not just your pianistic skill that impresses me... and you do sound great. It's that vast historical reference library you've got tucked away in your head.

 

I also enjoy your synth programming tips, even as they don't apply to me.

 

Yes, I'm at least partially aware of Suss's outstanding achievements and status in the professional world. If I think about it too much, I'm afraid to speak. Stop reminding me.