RANT: Musicians who "mail it in" on a slow night

[Blue JC]

Originally posted by Is There Gas in the Car?:

[QB]

 

I got a call the other day from a singer who is a friend of a girl who is getting married this spring. The singer wants to perform at her wedding - sing 3 songs, including The Lord's Prayer - which I would have to learn and rehearse with her. Afterwards, they need someone to play light jazz on the piano during the reception.[QB]

 

Rehearsal, wedding ceremony and wedding reception?

 

I would charge $250 for this - maybe more if I couldn't take another gig after the reception.

[Mr. Nightime]

At many of our gigs, we are the highest paid band that works there. We've been around for a long time, and the guitar player that negotiates the money has no qualms about demanding raises.

 

For the gig that Gas mentions, $100 would be the absolute minimum. When I was doing power singles many years ago, I was charging $125 in a club.

 

It seems like there are always some idiots that undercut everyone else. We had one in our area that undercut so often, the club owners began to believe that's what the bands should play for, and the money went down. The guy's a friend, but I'd still like to slap him silly every time I think about it.

 

I think the biggest problem with the money level at clubs is that for every group of quality players that really give a damn about the music, there are 3-4 other groups that will mail it in for half the money. Rather than paying for quality, the clubs will settle for mediocrity instead.

[kanker.]

Originally posted by Blue JC:

Originally posted by Is There Gas in the Car?:

[QB]

 

I got a call the other day from a singer who is a friend of a girl who is getting married this spring. The singer wants to perform at her wedding - sing 3 songs, including The Lord's Prayer - which I would have to learn and rehearse with her. Afterwards, they need someone to play light jazz on the piano during the reception.[QB]

Rehearsal, wedding ceremony and wedding reception?

 

I would charge $250 for this - maybe more if I couldn't take another gig after the reception.

Yeah, $250 would be the BARE minimum I'd charge for this, and then that's only if the solo piano is for about an hour of cocktails, and if I were doing it for a friend.

 

Is the chick who said she'd be your date hot? That might influence my opinion (were I single of course).

[ProfD]

I agree on the bare minimum of $250 for the wedding gig.

 

In a band, at least $100 per man on a local gig is good. $150 per and up is better.

[wmp]

I do this for the money and to have a blast. One or the other isn't enough, unless the money is incredibly good.

 

I agree with Kanker. I've got 50 years invested and the oft heard assertion that I should play for free because I enjoy playing really ticks me off. A hundred dollar gig is playing for free. That almost covers transportation, equipment moving and use. I wouldn't put my rig up for anyone else for less than double that.

 

I agree with JC too. If I haul my stuff somewhere to play at such bargain rates, I expect to play my best with good, like minded players and have a blast doing it. I don't give a damn if it's just us and the bartender. I play for my own enjoyment exclusively. Sure, it's nice if there's a crowd enjoying it, but I still don't do it for them.

 

A rehearsal and two gigs for $100? That would have to include some very enthusiastic dating. JC's $250 figure looks more reasonable to me.

 

I say no a lot. If more folks did the same, the pay would improve. A guitar player recently asked me to do one rehearsal and one gig a week for $20 or $25. He's a good player and it'd be fun to play with him. I told him he was nuts. That's not low pay, that's an expensive hobby. It annoys me a bit that he manages to get decent players to provide some bar with a four or five piece band for $100. There's not much I can do about it, other than to say no.

[Joe P]

The free party thing came up with us and was a source of conflict. Our guitar player is a pro, he negotiates the money. We always get paid. But this summer our bass player had us lined up for parties. His sister's party, his friend's boyfriend's brother's party. The drummer did it too for his brother's party and for a Down Syndrome Fundraiser. The town wanted us to play for free too, on a day when we also had a night gig! We had a meeting and that was it: no more freebies. We did the town gig and got paid but it was like pulling teeth. We did the fundraiser, and stopped at a bar afterwards for a coupla beers and picked up another gig there for 12/9. The bass player thought each band member should get a party - but that's 5 parties! And they're all gonna be in the summer. I got too much other stuff I could be doing than playing for free at parties. Now we only do one party: my party. But it's more like the Band's party. It's huge, this year we had 200 people. For some reason if people know you are in a band they think you will play for free and that's not fair.

Regards,

Joe

[ITGITC]

Originally posted by kanker, apparently:

Yeah, $250 would be the BARE minimum I'd charge for this, and then that's only if the solo piano is for about an hour of cocktails, and if I were doing it for a friend.

 

Is the chick who said she'd be your date hot? That might influence my opinion (were I single of course).

No - we didn't get far enough into the negotiation to talk price. Call me crazy, but there are some gigs I just don't want to do because I know that no matter what I charge, I won't come out ahead.

 

First, I'd have to learn the songs for the wedding itself - I would probably have to buy the sheet music. And once the bride settled on the songs she wanted for her wedding and I took the time to learn them, chances are good she'd change her mind... at least once.

 

I'd have to find a time and a place to rehearse them with the singer - she's in Phoenix, I'm in Raleigh.

 

Next, I'd have to put together a couple of sets of solo tunes to play at the reception - that's the least of my problems.

 

I'd have to haul my gear to the room where the wedding would take place, then, in all likelyhood, move it to another room for the reception, and pack it up when everything was over... all while wearing a suit.

 

But the thing that bothered me the most was that the singer assumed that since I was a friend, I would consider doing all this just for the pleasure of being her date... and I'm married with two kids and a mortgage.

 

So, under those constraints, I think a fair price is $500. However, even for that I would still think twice before taking the gig. I know some of you think I'm foolish. But if, in the back of your mind, you don't have a good feeling about the gig, it's not worth the angst.

 

 

A working musician is in a catch 22 situation. One the one hand, in order to make it worthwhile you need at least a hundred dollars in your pocket to take home after the gig. But then you've got rehearsals, gas money, and equipment to move, maintain, and lust over (GAS). I'm not bitchin' here guys, these are known expenses and they go with the territory.

 

On the other hand you've got friends who want you to play for free and other musicians in town who WILL. What message does this send to the general public about the worth of our craft? ...it devalues it, of course.

 

So, I've got a nice 88-key board, stand, 2 speakers, an amp rack, a mixer, a couple of cases of pedals and cables - one primary case, and another for backup, right? That's a lot for a guy to haul - I don't care if you're 18 or if you're 50.

 

While I'm at it, I feel the need to mention clothes - whether it's a suit or a stage costume, chances are it's something special. Well, that's going to come from that $100.

 

Finally, if your vehicle gets better gas mileage than mine (18 MPG), you're doing well.

 

But I was getting $100 or so thirty years ago and the pay's the same today... more or less (usually less). So unless you've got another compelling reason to play the gig, the reality hits you square in the jaw - you're coming out in the red.

 

Don't get me wrong - I love playing music. It's the 2nd best thing in life to do on a Saturday night. But I just hate to feel like, one way or another, I'm going to have to pay to play.

 

I apologize for the rant. But I'm willing to bet that most of you have thought the same thing.

 

I need a beer. Ummmm, I guess that'll have to come out of that $100 too.

[wmp]

Originally posted by Is There Gas in the Car?:

But I was getting $100 or so thirty years ago and the pay's the same today... more or less (usually less). So unless you've got another compelling reason to play the gig, the reality hits you square in the jaw - you're coming out in the red.

Amen. And at the time, with a twelve piece band, four or five nights a week. I was one happy dude, because I couldn't see the future.

 

I need a beer. Ummmm, I guess that'll have to come out of that $100 too.

No way. If they have food and beer, they must be included for me to roll for $100.

 

You're dead on target, Tom. Trust your gut.

 

Really, folks. Just say no. Joe, before it's too late for you, just say no. I played lots of private parties and town square gigs over the summer. None for less than $150. Most for $250.

 

There are lots of ways to not get paid. The money has to be right for the situation. I'll play a little biker joint with no cover for $100, but I'm not playing for $100 if 400 people paid $10 each to see us.

 

I don't play benefits, unless they benefit me. I don't play for exposure. I'm told that performers are not paid to play the White House because it's such an honor. Add that to the long list of reasons I'll never do that gig.

[Jazz+]

Standard Wedding Fees (minimum, low range)

 

$150 first hour (piano provided on sight)

add $50 if you need to bring keyboard/speakers

 

$75 each additional hour

 

$50 per rehearsal hour

 

Travel Fee depends on mileage

[Joe P]

wmp,

Yeah, our band is on the same page now, and the town paid us our normal rate. And at first I didn't want to do the Down Syndrome benefit, but after I got there, I was glad I did, it made us feel good.

 

I love playing music. It's the 2nd best thing in life to do on a Saturday night.

Gas,

I assume the best thing somehow includes BEER.

 

Regards,

Joe

[Blue JC]

Originally posted by Jazz+:

Standard Wedding Fees (minimum, low range)

 

$150 first hour (piano provided on sight)

add $50 if you need to bring keyboard/speakers

 

$75 each additional hour

 

$50 per rehearsal hour

 

Travel Fee depends on mileage

I also add $50 each if they want formal wear (tuxedo or gown) because dry cleaning my tux after every gig has become so expensive.

[latchmo]

So, under those constraints, I think a fair price is $500. However, even for that I would still think twice before taking the gig. I know some of you think I'm foolish. But if, in the back of your mind, you don't have a good feeling about the gig, it's not worth the angst.

I second that emotion.

 

RE: Undercutting. Recently, a local musician in my area started to book himself and other bands (acting as an agent) in clubs for less money than other bands in the area had been charging. He had a monopoly on the local scene. But the musicians that would work for that kind of money were not the highest caliber. The quality of music in the clubs went downhill and people stopped going out to these clubs. I got offered a gig at a club that I had worked at many times before for less money than before. I turned it down. The club owner called me back a few weeks later and offered me the gig for a little more than I had made before. He was losing business with half-ass bands playing for half-ass money.

 

People who undercut like this are detrimental not only to working musicians but to the scene in general.

[Eric Iverson]

To me it's understandable that on a slow night the band might get a little more "experimental". I'm playing in a coffeehouse band where getting experimental at times is part of the fun of it!

 

Experimental is one thing (stretch out the solos a little more, going out on a limb or two), but simply not giving a s@@t is something else!

 

Yes, certain songs can be boring to you, but it's still your obligation to play them well, if you're serious about being a musician!

[kanker.]

Originally posted by Is There Gas in the Car?:

So, under those constraints, I think a fair price is $500.

Now you're talking my language.

 

You never know though, the wife might be cool with it, right?

[ProfD]

Originally posted by Is There Gas in the Car?:

So, under those constraints, I think a fair price is $500. However, even for that I would still think twice before taking the gig. I know some of you think I'm foolish. But if, in the back of your mind, you don't have a good feeling about the gig, it's not worth the angst.

Makes perfect sense to me. Charge it!

 

I stand by the bare minimum stated earlier because there are cats who will do a 4 hour gig for $50.

 

Personally, I always charge according to my heartburn. The worst I feel about the gig, the more I charge.

 

On the other hand you've got friends who want you to play for free and other musicians in town who WILL.

Momma says they are not really your true friends.

 

One can stay at home, be broke and still have fun playing their keyboard.

 

Gigging for free or damn near it has nothing to do with love for music. It falls somewhere between asinine and dumb.

[JeffLearman]

There's another component to this that I haven't seen anyone else bring up: A real musician (regardless of how often you may or may not work) would still be working to interact with the band in artistic way, trying to inspire and be inspired from within the band itself , regardless of how few people are in the audience. These guys must not be that good even on a good night, if they're just playing the same old rote BS gig after gig.

Bingo.

 

Is the chick who said she'd be your date hot?

Probably not as hot as his wife, and even if so I bet Gasman knows which side of his bread is buttered.

 

It's a lot harder to negotiate a raise when you have some fools giving their talent away ...

Well, I'm guilty there, but I think not in a way that affects any gigging pros. I'll play for food, but folks get what they pay for. Seriously, I played a solo gig for a friend's party. She usually hires a guy, but she found out he quit doing it, and I was available at the last minute -- otherwise she wouldn't have hired anyone this time. (She offered to pay, so it's not like Tom's story, which is totally rude.)

 

Now and then I'll get a chance to sit in with a band I know. They offer me a cut but I say no because those guys are living on shoestring budgets and like the song goes, I got a daytime job, I'm doing alright.

 

Main thing, I'm not putting anyone out of a gig. I'm practicing in a blues band and we'll start gigging soon, and we'll charge whatever the market will bear. I don't give a whit about the bucks, but other band members do and I want to keep them happy! I'll put whatever I earn into gear.

 

On the other hand, if folks want to gig for the fun of it, cheap or for free, that's their perogative. This is the disadvantage to making a living doing something that others like enough to do as a hobby. Personally, I like quality music and I like to see lots of talented folks getting paid well to do it.

 

I'll agree the pay scale sure hasn't kept up. Minimum wage hasn't kept up with cost of living, and musician pay hasn't even kept up with minimum wage (ratio wise, that is). Seems to me that 30 years ago, for $500 you'd get a pretty weak band for a wedding gig. For $1000, you'd get a decent band. Bar gigs vary a lot, but even in a tough competitive area like Ann Arbor, a 5 piece at a small bar would be happy to get $300 or $400, especially if they weren't just playing top 40. Less for blues bands, even good ones that would always draw a good crowd.

 

How much have things changed? Not enough, I suspect. Of course, I'm talking bottom rung on the circuit here. Things might be better at the more up-scale gigs and big venues.

[Phred]

I have two things to say on the subject. One is about parties, and playing for friends.

 

My band plays for friends and does parties etc... We have agreed on a friends and family rate of 100$ per person (500$). Anyone can choose not to get paid. For example, we played a party for a friend of the singer, and he charged 400$, and didn't get paid.

 

The second thing I have to say is about other people undercutting. You are right that it undervalues things to a degree, however it isn't going to change. I work in software, and have been making the best product in its field for many years. We basically had zero compitition. A couple of years ago a very small company started to give away an inferior, but free product that was 'good enough'. This product is open source, allowing the community to contribute and make the product better. We had to adapt.