S90ES put spell on me

[skykeys]

Jazzwee, not exclusively. I am commenting generically on lots of threads, though I did factor your recent entires in this thread into my reply. Please don't take offense; no offense intended.

 

There have been many different threads in this forum with themes like "which keyboard should I buy", particularly the S90ES vs the RD700SX ones. In these threads, my perception, which perhaps is incorrect, is that some people focus to narrowly on a specific sound to judge the quality of the board.

 

These type boards offer so much more than one or two sounds. If one is really only interested in playing acoustic piano, Rhoades and organ, and the sounds of these patches is super important to them, I think they should just get a Rhoades (or maybe a Yamaha P250 or CP33 or similar board that focuses on these few sounds), and one of the organ-only keyboards that give you a true(er) B3 type experience. Why pay for a board for which they will not be interested in three-quarters of the functionality? It seems a waste to me.

 

I admit I could be jumping to conclusions about peoples intent, but I can only go by what they say in their threads. Or perhaps I am just a bit more cautious about how I would spend $2K than some other folks.

 

By the way, I liked your earlier threads where you praised the virtues of the S90ES.

 

Regards.

[Jazzwee]

Skykeys, I still think the S90ES is a great board. What has been changing my choices is that I've been playing on a Yamaha U3 and a Yamaha S Grand most of the time and for soloing, I'm looking for this singing voice that is characteristic of a fine acoustic. I'm finding that a lot of digitals don't have this as a default sound as some others have commented. The S90ES has this sound, just not as obvious a position as patch #1. This frequent comparison with an acoustic has changed my reference since I have the acoustic in the same room.

 

But generally, I'm cautious to diss other keyboards because I've stated before that different playing styles affect the sound that comes out of a board. A heavy hand brings out the high velocity samples which aren't so great on some boards (like the S90) which wouldn't be obvious to someone with a lighter touch. The S90ES has a very nice high velocity sample in comparison so it sounds good at all velocities.

 

Because of differences in playing, like in dynamics, it is difficult to fully assess statements made by many people stating that one board is greater than another. This same comparison can be made of an acoustic. So a lot of this is personal taste (at least among the top level boards).

 

So if one's playing style can bring out the best in a particular board, I can respect that.

[Volken]

Originally posted by delirium: S90ES piano sound put spell on me, and Fantom X8 going back to store, although it has 10x more features and graded action...Why you guys didn't tell me earlier that S90ES grand piano is the best? [/QB]

Exactly what my friend did, he is glued to S90ES now, but later purchased XR rack to keep the sounds from Fantom.

 

During the last few months, particularly this summer. While traveling and visiting...really took priority to check many interesting Stage Pianos, specially those I haven't played properly before.

 

I think most of us would agree qualitative sphere of both S90ES /Roland X/700sx are more then well matched from the point of already being fantastic pianos for many people.

 

There are no more then 5-10 dynamic speaker designers in the world, capable of creating a proper time coherent design. Takes great skills. Funding, but again accumulated experience. Now, I'm more planar / ribbon kind a guy, that lightness of recreating a proper instrument size and delicacy is always less mechanical regardless whatever cone comes at any price. I feel if dynamic speaker costs more then `10k I has to be time coherent, otherwise it is a furniture

 

This analogy travels to Promega 3. Just like a properly made dynamic (TC) speakers. On the first look,they don't call much attention to themselves. But once you resolve deeper into playing obvious splendor becomes apparent. Such is the Promega 3, I'll guarantee you 700sx and S90ES would probably take more of your attention then Promega on first hearing. But once you really witness the delicacy of its responsiveness, and should I mention RESONANCE, there is no getting away from realizing you are dealing with one step higher then other have to offer. Sure it is again qualitative levy, but one that really makes you want to play, again and again. Attack? don't even ask, superb.

 

It seems as neutral initially, but it has certain brightness with character, and completeness to is mid and low realms. DRAKE is really no declaration technology. Those processors and algorithms really do make things special. In terms of piano, less filters/ less samples at different level/switches but attention to proper simulation of piano as instruments. Something we all really want to see in digital stage domain.

 

In present silver/spaceship extravaganza or should we say plastic vs metal economization, really love the simplicity of 90ES looks. Perceive it as instrument and less as machine.

 

700sx has, for my ears, more resolution from C4 and treble response compared to S90ES but also X8. Darker as many would call it, but I like how it sounds. I think we should start sending a letters to Yamaha/Roland/Gem/Kawai for complete stage piano :

 

1) We want Kawai MP8/9500 grade keys.

2) Sound and pliability of Promega 3

3) Masterkeyboard management of A80/DPMC8

4) Roland's dedicated power/passion for piano.

5) Yamaha's sober traditional qualities and little loan from VP1…in full nano, if possible

 

Since soft/virtual/less hardware influenza is taking far too many prisoners… We insist on this design as point reference with additional 88 keys for permanent reminder of the hardware delicacy

[lachesis]

Originally posted by Jazzwee:

...

Where do you control decay?

...

[edit] --> [1,2,3 or 4] --> [F4(AMP)] --> [sF3(AEG)].

 

Then arrow keys to move around to one the DCY1 or DCY2 column. There's a nice diagram on p142 of the manual showing the usual ASDR envelope.

 

I've never tried playing around with these before. I too am interested to see if I can get a more "singing" tone. What I'm thinking is that the first decay time simulates the initial percussive strike, and the second decay time simulates the sustain afterwards, so deemphasizing the the first decay time (by reducing the level to which it decays, or something) should make the sound less percussive...Trying that now...Well I tried a little tweaking and couldn't get anything better than what's already programmed.

[Jazzwee]

lachesis, the answer was literally under my nose and I was in heaven when I figured it out.

 

The attack, decay, etc. functions are controlled by the switches on the left where the volume is. And lo and behold, Attack, Decay, Velocity, Resonance, and many more are easily implemented on any Voice patch in addition to EQ. This is just fantastic. My appreciation of this board has suddenly jumped by leaps and bounds. This truly is the advantage of a synth over let's say a P series or CP series Yamaha.

 

So I stuck to the same Natural S patch, and I lowered the attack only. That was enough to change the whole feel of the sound. I could save it as a new voice to my preference. I don't have too as I find that a variable approach here is great. The modified Natural S was much better than the Intimate.

[delirium]

Originally posted by Jazzwee:

So I stuck to the same Natural S patch, and I lowered the attack only. That was enough to change the whole feel of the sound. I could save it as a new voice to my preference. I don't have too as I find that a variable approach here is great. The modified Natural S was much better than the Intimate. [/QB]

I have to try that too, how much did you lower the attack? Maybe that small hiss at D5 will go away then.

[Jazzwee]

I set it to -64 which is the lowest value. I didn't try intermediate values at the time. I did play with some of the other parameters but I don't think it was helping the sound.

 

At -64, it sounded like a high sustain piano being hit with a gentle touch. Next time I'll push the value up a little bit to see what it sounds like. It goes from +64 to -64. Default is 0.

[DanL]

Jazzwee one of the 1st things I did with my piano patches was edit the reverb. I think I have it set to about 4 right now, just a little hint of it. I don't like the drenched sounds either, and the dryer sound cuts much better in a band setting.

 

I'm going to play with the Intimate and Elegant sounds a bit. I've pretty much used the main piano sound with a couple tweaks to the FX since I got the board since that sound worked best in my band, but a revisit to the other sounds is in order.

[Jazzwee]

Originally posted by DanL:

Jazzwee one of the 1st things I did with my piano patches was edit the reverb. I think I have it set to about 4 right now, just a little hint of it. I don't like the drenched sounds either, and the dryer sound cuts much better in a band setting.

 

I'm going to play with the Intimate and Elegant sounds a bit. I've pretty much used the main piano sound with a couple tweaks to the FX since I got the board since that sound worked best in my band, but a revisit to the other sounds is in order.

Reverb wise -- that sounds about right for me too. I may not play much with Intimate though now that I discovered the attack adjustment. I can just vary it as needed.

[matt8279]

Ive already posted a new thread so hopefully i am not hijacking this thread. I am deciding between the S90ES and the Tyros 2 as a christmas present to myself so i'll probably need a quick reply. If you could choose one, which one will it be?

[delirium]

Originally posted by matt8279:

Ive already posted a new thread so hopefully i am not hijacking this thread. I am deciding between the S90ES and the Tyros 2 as a christmas present to myself so i'll probably need a quick reply. If you could choose one, which one will it be?

do you need apples or oranges?

[skykeys]

Matt8279, people who own the S90ES love it, and will tell you to get it. People who own the RD700SX love it, and will tell you to get it. I'm not familiar with the Tyros 2, but I assume people who have one love it, and will tell you to get it.

 

The only way to go is for you to play any/all boards that you are considering. Play them extensively, if possible. Then decide which one floats your boat the most. In that process, think about what kind of sounds you will play (or need) the most: exclusively acoustic and electric piano; organ; strings, horns and flutes; synth/moog sounds; sequencing. Do not choose based on one or two patches - unless those one or two patches are the ones you will use 90% of the time.

 

If you still can't decide after that, then buy the least expensive one, or if you're rich - buy the most expensive one; or, buy the one I think you should get - the S90ES, because I own one and I love it.

 

Regards.

[matt8279]

I'll be buying the S90ES after giving much thought. Even though I love the tyros 2 also because the sounds/patches are lightyears ahead in terms or realism. However the S90ES is slightly cheaper and I don't want to give up the 88 weighted keys for 61 keys.

 

Tyros2 is a All in one preprogrammed arranger that does literally everything. You look good no matter what you do on it and you don't need to start from scratch.

 

S90ES needs much more preparation and the learning curve will definitely be steeper. Just from the small screen size tells it all. But I believe that I'll definitely grow to love it, hopefully not more than my GF.

 

I'm thinking of getting the HS80M yamaha studio monitors for S90ES though i find them a bit expensive. I was recommended the Roland KC350 amplifer also. Both seems pretty decent. Wished I had the money to get a pair of either one since I heard its best for stereo.

 

For the moment I'll be getting a Sennheiser Evolution EH350 monitoring headphones. It should be decent enough to give me satisfaction while playing.

 

Happy holidays guys.

[C.J. Lewis]

Wow - what a great thread! It's not often I miss threads that are right up my alley...but then again, maybe I just miss them and don't know...

 

Anyway! If I didn't absolutely have to have 4 or 8 zones of control from my K stuff on stage, I'd almost certainly be playing an S90ES. I was just in a GC today seeing an old friend comparing an S90ES and an RD700SX. In the end, I believe the RD won over because of user friendliness and familiarity (the church has another RD700SX), but the S90ES' 'Natual S' piano captivated them. I mean they stood there, mouths agape as I played...amazed. Yeah, it's that good. Kudos to Yamaha for that one (Mike Martin...was that you, perhaps?) Phil/Avery, isn't that an S3 sample (the 9' concert?). Whatever it is, I wish they'd put it in a new rack module...I'd buy it for that one piano.

 

Cydonia - I agree with you about people not liking (not getting, not understanding, whatever) our 'new' piano sounds...they are extremely similar to the Steinway we've used in the K26XX series. The difference in the PC series is the triple strike sample (yes, we were first!), an available option in the K26XX series as well. The result is a much more expressive feel that gives the user an even more 'real' experience with their instrument.

 

It's a great time in the keyboard industry, folks. Remember when the best piano available was the Roland RD-1000? eek.

 

[delirium]

Originally posted by ivorycj:

Anyway! If I didn't absolutely have to have 4 or 8 zones of control from my K stuff on stage, I'd almost certainly be playing an S90ES.

S90ES does have 4 zones control...

[Jazz+]

Come to think of it the S90ES piano does remind me of the Kurzweil PC2X sound, sort of neutral sounding, a sort of mid range timber. Not a lot of overtones.

[stepay]

Funny that this thread is up at the top just now as I spent lunch at Sam Ash and played an S90ES for a while. Sounds ok sometimes, but it's not the right thing for me. I don't like the action, and though I know I'd learn how to switch to different sounds easily if I owned one, it seems cumbersome to do so.

 

As a side note, the Sam Ash store here in Columbus is so much worse than the Guitar Center store just down the street from it. Think I'll be going to Guitar Center when I needs stuff from now on.

[delirium]

Originally posted by stepay:

[QB] Sounds ok sometimes, but it's not the right thing for me. I don't like the action,

Stepay, if you played long time on juno-d and you liked the action, I don't blame you you don't like this one

 

btw, is above sentence with double "you" grammar-wise ok?