S90ES put spell on me

[K K]

Originally posted by delirium:

You can think and say whatever you want but this is the best sounding keyboard on the market today.

Here\'s some bad news for you.

 

But that's OK, from time to time, we all need to justify our most recent purchase writing a few subjective opinions.

[delirium]

Originally posted by Cydonia:

Originally posted by delirium:

You can think and say whatever you want but this is the best sounding keyboard on the market today.

Here\'s some bad news for you.

 

But that's OK, from time to time, we all need to justify our most recent purchase writing a few subjective opinions.

maybe you need to justify something like that, I don't. Instead of such silly comments, open your ears better, bacause if you did you would change whatever you play on now

[K K]

Originally posted by delirium:

Instead of such silly comments, open your ears better, bacause if you did you would change whatever you play on now

Hey, I didn't open that thread about the S90ES problem, so don't blame me. And it's not the first time I read about it, so I guess many people "ears needs to be opened better".

 

I'm perfectly happy with my purchases, thank you. And some of my gear I have since more than 20 years.

[delirium]

I just compared S90ES sound to another acoustic grand piano, and I was pleased that I found same small quirks like F sharp is vibrant and c4 and c5 in octave are a little not in tune. Exactly like it supposed to be, very nice indeed.

[Jazz+]

delerium,

 

Maybe you should change your member name to "S90ES dude". You have become quite a zealot for the S90ES. Are you Chris?

 

J+

[SilverDragonSoun]

Originally posted by Jazz+:

delerium,

 

Maybe you should change your member name to "S90ES dude". You have become quite a zealot for the S90ES. Are you Chris?

 

J+

The P120 Dude thread is going again at HC. They even have the original in zip format for your reading pleasure.

 

Delerium -Personally your passion for the S90ES is great. I can certainly understand it as I own one. I guess the only caution I share with you is one I have from experience. Don't let your pride cloud your judgement. I was guilty of this years ago with my Korg T3.

[delirium]

Guys, Ive finally found the keyboard which I can enjoy playing, and it can substitute my acoustic grand when I traveling.

Im traveling a lot recently and Im dying without my grand, so sorry if Ive expressed my opinion maybe in imposing way.

 

OK Ill shut up and dont say anything good anymore about S90ES, because I guess it's better when we criticize gear (as usually here) then praise it when it deserves.

 

BTW it obvious that everything a man says is subjective and personal so reminding me about that in all these testy comments is just silly

[dongna]

Originally posted by Cydonia:

Originally posted by delirium:

You can think and say whatever you want but this is the best sounding keyboard on the market today.

Here\'s some bad news for you.

As the creator of the linked thread, I feel compelled to point out that it is seriously out of context within this thread (not intentional by Cydonia, I'm sure). True, I have an issue with a very minor noise in one patch within the S90ES. I hesitate to say anything is "best", but overall, I wouldn't disagree with the assertion that the S90ES is one of the best sounding keyboards on the market today.

[Legatoboy]

Delirium,

 

I don't like the Roland pianos, I think you made a good switch to a Yamaha product in terms of the piano sound and all the other goodies in the S90ES soundwise except the organs. Though the Yamaha soundset has a nice varied selection of organs and they are pretty good, as Learjeff said that organ in the RD700SX / RD300SX is extreamly thick for a Synth organ and very usuable, even the Scanner is pretty good and Perc.. I'm also partial to the Roland Clavs.

 

I think the Roland drums kick-ass over the Yamaha drum kits if kick-ass is what you are looking for, they just seem louder, punchier and more present.. .. The RD and the Fantom pianowise though, extremely hard to control live, very uneven! I agree with the other poster who said The RD700SX was either very dark or very bright! The RD700SX would drive me crazy all night getting it right for just 2 songs a set!

 

lb

[delirium]

Originally posted by Legatoboy:

The RD and the Fantom pianowise though, extremely hard to control live, very uneven! I agree with the other poster who said The RD700SX was either very dark or very bright! The RD700SX would drive me crazy all night getting it right for just 2 songs a set!

lb

exactly, I don't understand how some persons cannot hear that

[delirium]

Originally posted by dongna:

I hesitate to say anything is "best", but overall, I wouldn't disagree with the assertion that the S90ES is one of the best sounding keyboards on the market today. [/QB]

sure it is

 

other great sounding piano is of course CP300,

but it's from heavyweight group.

[skykeys]

Why is it that many of us just HAVE to reply, when our favorite - whatever, keyboard, artist, song, sound patch, is either criticized or doesn't come up on top in a comparison. It's weird.

 

For example, legatoboy - you say that you like the organ patches in the RD700SX better than the S90ES. I should just let it go, because I know that it is a subjective opinion, and you are fully justified to think that the 700SX organs are better.

 

But yet, here I am, saying that I think the S90ES organ patches are better. What's up with that?

 

 

 

Regards.

[Legatoboy]

skykeys,

 

I played ALOT of hammond organ/Leslie as a kid from the age of 15 to 23 until I stopped playing to go back to collage.(M3/145 then C3/122)

 

I had a RD300SX that I eventually traded back for a V-Combo which I still have. Not that I'm that enamored with the Roland organ sound (clone or not). I actually think out of all of em the Voce has the correct 'girth' in it's bandwith and density and creamyness compared to areal B3.

 

The RD700SX and RD300SX organ patches just had a similiar "girth" quality similiar to the Voce. It's a dense thick sound. I was shocked when on my first gig with the RD300SX in the band setting on a gig. I just knew it was taking up a very similar space as a real B3 with the first 4 drawbars out immediatly.

 

Now some of the Motif organs a pretty good and thick too like that. The samples are just not a broad in bandwith!

 

The Yamaha orgnas can be prettier and interesting and ambient, but for the raw material of a true B3 bandwith as raw material on the first 4 drawbars. I'll take the Roland.

I didn't think some of the upper drawbars were 10 accurate and the RDsx get alittle thin up top but not too bad AT ALL. The RD organ was good enough for me to order a custom stereo A/B switch from LOOPER.COM to switch the Piano/Synth and Organ through my MS KBr3d and channel switch. . . the stereo outs from both sides of that twin amp. It was actually thicker than the Voce but it didn't behave as organ like or playable sonically like a real B would..

 

lb

[Legatoboy]

Skykeys,

 

'I didn't think some of the upper drawbars were 10 accurate'

 

I ment 100% accurate!

 

lb

[skykeys]

Legatoboy - thanks for the info. I have a different question for you. Do you prefer to run your 700SX in stereo? Do you think the stereo image adds an additional quality - or, running in mono misses a dynamic sound characteristic? I definitely think running in stereo sounds much better. How effective do you find the stereo image/separation from the Motion Sound cabinet? I have not heard one of these "stereo" cabinets, so I'm curious how they work - as compared to running two physically separate cabinets to gain the true stereo sound.

 

Thanks for your input.

[Jazzwee]

My tastes have changed on the S90ES. Partly because of mostly using my Yamaha U3 instead and I begin comparing the sound. The attack is less and the sustain longer on the U3 (and the actual Yamaha S Grand which I play regularly now).

 

So I no longer gravitate to the Natural S because to me it sounds too processed now. It sounds over-reverbed and may require some synth tweaking to adjust to my taste. But I really like the "Intimate" piano sound. It's very close to the sustain and attack level on the real piano. Anyone have any comments on this? Try it out. It sounds great with jazz legato solo lines.

 

I wonder what sample it is in comparison to the S Grand. It doesn't have the S label there and it has less reverb and processing.

[soundscape]

Originally posted by Jazzwee:

So I no longer gravitate to the Natural S because to me it sounds too processed now. It sounds over-reverbed and may require some synth tweaking to adjust to my taste. But I really like the "Intimate" piano sound. It's very close to the sustain and attack level on the real piano.

Hmm... sounds like you've become used to hearing how pianos sounds when sitting next to one in a (relatively) small room. Although personally, I'd go easy on the reverb--especially for hearing yourself play.

[burningbusch]

Originally posted by Jazzwee:

I wonder what sample it is in comparison to the S Grand. It doesn't have the S label there and it has less reverb and processing.

You could press the edit button and find out.

 

Busch.

[Jazzwee]

I remember when I first started to play and I put all the reverb in there to hide all my mistakes. Now I can't stand it. Must indicate something about my playing huh?

 

But on the S90eS Natural S grand sound, the default reverb is a little high for me. This is not any reverb I add. I have to manually reduce the reverb each time I play. You need a little bit of it to activate the string resonance since it may be part of the modelling formula. But not as much as the default.

 

It's interesting when people comment about strong tastes in piano sounds and I've watched myself switch significantly as my playing changed. Some pianos (like the S90) was poor in high velocity. Since I was banging on the piano more in the past, I tended to complain about that sound more. If I played an S90 now I bet it will sound good.

 

This is why I don't go around criticizing other people's choice of piano sounds because I've learned that it is not something carved in stone. When Cydonia and Gas says the Kurzweil sounds good, I say to myself, that I need to check it out (haven't spotted a Kurzweil yet though).

 

The S90ES does in fact reflect the character of the wonderful sound of an S Grand. However, there's something in the sample that doesn't sound like a normal listening environment. I play the Yamaha S Grand in a soundproofed studio with practically no noticeable reverb.

 

The 'Intimate' sample though has the tone quality I'm looking for. But I don't know if it has the same velocity layers as the S pianos. I like the tone but the expressiveness is more in the Natural S samples.

[Jazzwee]

Originally posted by burningbusch:

Originally posted by Jazzwee:

I wonder what sample it is in comparison to the S Grand. It doesn't have the S label there and it has less reverb and processing.

You could press the edit button and find out.

 

Busch.

I think I will have to RTFM to understand all the lingo. I'm no synth expert and I don't understand what all the stuff means.

[K K]

Originally posted by Jazzwee:

When Cydonia and Gas says the Kurzweil sounds good, I say to myself, that I need to check it out (haven't spotted a Kurzweil yet though).

As you said, tastes about piano sound differ widely from one person to another. The acoustic piano in the last generation of Kurzweils is certainly darker than the Yamaha. And to be totally honest, I found the factory presets to be quite ordinary and too similar to each other. And since many judge a digital instrument listening to the presets, I think this explains why a number of people don't like the "latest" Kurzweil pianos. But the synths offer so much programmability, you can transform the piano sounds (or any other) a lot, in almost any way possible, to satisfy your needs. It took me a while to get closer to what I wanted with mine.

[Jazzwee]

Cydonia, I think there may be a similar opinion on the Yamahas. I've always wondered if someone testing the S90ES for the first time knew to leave the expression pedal in the lowest position. I would guess not so it will be where the last person used it. This is a synth after all.

 

In any case, the Intimate preset I speak of appears to be another 'S Grand' patch and the title does not say S because there isn't enough space. So how many who actually complain about the S90ES sound have ever tried every single piano sound (there's a dark, bright, intimate, mono). If one can make the same mistake in evaluation in the S90ES, I'm sure that same issue will come up when evaluating other digitals.

 

So I conclude that all the top pianos (based on recommendations) must get serious consideration from a potential buyer, regardless of manufacturer.

[delirium]

Originally posted by Jazzwee:

My tastes have changed on the S90ES. Partly because of mostly using my Yamaha U3 instead and I begin comparing the sound. The attack is less and the sustain longer on the U3 (and the actual Yamaha S Grand which I play regularly now).

 

So I no longer gravitate to the Natural S because to me it sounds too processed now. It sounds over-reverbed and may require some synth tweaking to adjust to my taste. But I really like the "Intimate" piano sound. It's very close to the sustain and attack level on the real piano. Anyone have any comments on this? Try it out. It sounds great with jazz legato solo lines.

 

Jazzwee,

Similar with me, after month of using S90ES there are days when Natural S sounds too bright to me and I really enjoy switching to Intimate or full Grand patch.

But thats the thing with this board so far I can always find the right sound for current mood Im in, because it has a lot of very usable piano sounds.

 

Anyway the spell still last and roland which stands aside hasnt been used even once since then, although I prefer action on roland.

In contrary I remember when I bought roland after 2 days I wanted to return it...

 

Also I discovered few Quirks on some notes at higher velocity (e.g C#5 and D5) which dont really bother me but makes this piano more realistic and close to acoustic.

[Jazzwee]

Jazz+ was making a comment once about the attack level and sustain and how his lines sounded detached using Natural S. I see now that this is a correct statement on that patch and I agree it is not the best for jazz solo legato lines. The "Intimate" patch is much better for that. I was just playing with it a moment ago, and I really like the sound of it for solo lines.

 

Natural S may be better for comping though or chordal playing.

[lachesis]

Originally posted by Jazzwee:

...

In any case, the Intimate preset I speak of appears to be another 'S Grand' patch and the ...

Yep, all the first five pianos, except for "Dark S" use the same samples, just processed differently with different processing. There are some small discrepancies in the decay times programmed into each patch, but nothing that different.

 

I like to use the darker pianos (dark, intimate) for more ballady, slower pieces, and the brighter pianos (bright, natural) for more "jumpy" pieces the have lots of chord stabs. The "elegant" patch is kind of in the middle, and I use it a lot.

[Jazzwee]

The Dark S is a different sample? Enlighten me Lachesis, that's interesting. Is this documented somewhere?

 

Where does one edit the attack and decay times?

[lachesis]

Originally posted by Jazzwee:

The Dark S is a different sample? Enlighten me Lachesis, that's interesting. Is this documented somewhere?

 

Where does one edit the attack and decay times?

When you're using a certain piano patch, press "edit", then either 1,2, or 3 (for one of 3 velocity layers). This shows you the waveforms that are used for each. The ones for natural, bright, intimate, elegant are wave numbers 1884, 1872, and 1860. (Tables of all the waves are in the "waveform list" of the data list manual. esp. see p. 23. ) But Dark S uses 1892, 1880, 1868. All the waves have "s700" in their name, so I'm guessing they're all sampled from the same piano, but under different conditions. There actually seem to be a lot of s700 samples (wave no's. 1860 and above), but I haven't figured out exactly where, or if they're used in any voices anywhere. If someone knows, I'd be really curious.

 

Once you select a velocity layer, press press f4(amp) then sf3(aeg) to look at/edit the decay times. Each velocity layer has it's own adjustabl attack/decay times, which is useful for synth voices, but a little weird for piano voices.

 

Playing around with the settings should be safe, no permanent changes are made until you press "store" and confirm "yes". To reset any changes, just switch to another patch and then back again.

[Jazzwee]

No wonder I couldn't find it (Yamaha Grrrr.) Edit + Velocity layer. You would think it would be easy enough to put a menu option for this.

 

I believe the Arps are called this way too and it wasn't obvious to me until I RTFM'd.

 

I'll try it out next time I'm on the board.

 

Where do you control decay?

[skykeys]

I am surprised to hear anyone would plop down roughly $2k on a keyboard without thoroughly checking it out first. I played darn near every patch on the S90ES before I purchased it. I did pay more attention to the patches I cared about the most, particularly the acoustic and elect. pianos, the organs, the flutes/horns and the strings. But I would never buy any keyboard of this type just based on one sound patch.

 

There are lots of good acoustic piano patches on the S90ES, and they each have their sweet spot. I find myself tending to use the Natural S and Bright patches for up-temp rock, and the Elegant and Intimate patches for other things. They are all good, but each one has characteristics that make it better suited for one style over another. I also use the Mono piano patch for some stuff.

 

The S90ES is more difficult to use than the RD700SX for doing simple things, but the S90ES is easier to use for the more sophisticated features.

 

A synth is an instrument unto itself, not just an emulator of acoustic pianos or whatever. The S90ES has a lot of power and flexibility packed into one unit. My goal is take full advantage of all that power.

 

Regards.

[Jazzwee]

Where you referring to me skykeys? I'm just saying my tastes changed AFTER I bought it.