Keybed spec CP300 vs CP33

[marcus r]

Hi! Enjoying this forum as an excellent source of info to get an opinion of ... anything.

 

Been a dedicated P-150 user for 10+ years. Action sluggish. Sample quality, well, 10+ years old board. But i find "musical feedback" to player excellent.

 

I'm playing a mix between classical and jazz, and would ideally prefer an actual grand, but then there is space, and portability ...

 

Even though coming from a P-150, my main concern when thinking of upgrading is the key-bed. My question is if the specs on the CP300 key-bed is the same as for CP33. Then I might trade some sample ROM for portability.

 

(I didn't come over this information in previous posts)

 

Thanks for a great forum

/Marcus

[orangefunk]

I think the action on all Yamaha portable pianos (save for the semi weighted range) is the same.. even down to the part no.s e.g. P250, CP300 P120, P140, P90, P70, P60 and so on...

[Mark Schmieder]

This has been discussed in detail, even within the past two weeks. But this forum has been very active lately, so there's generally up to two pages of new and/or updated posts every day.

 

Orangefunk is in fact dead wrong: the action is different in almost every Yamaha digital piano. The CP300 uses the same action as the Clavinovas, whilst the CP33 shares its action with the P130 (or whatever the newer model is called), if memory serves.

 

The voicings are also quite different. The P-range is designed for home use, while the CP-range is designed for stage use and to cut through a band. Until recently, the two series were both intermingled within the P-series, with the exception of the PF-500, which is similar to the P-250 (just replaced by the CP-300) except for having more workstation and/or auto-accompaniment like features.

 

Yamaha is a big company, so they make a wide range of digital pianos, each one targeted towards a different audience. The price points are not the only way in which they are distinguished.

 

I may not remember exactly which actions are used on which keyboards, but I do know (from the horse's mouth) that they are almost all different. This becomes immediately evident when trying them out in a store as well. It is also true that Yamaha keeps updating their actions, so even a model that specifically replaces another model may have different action as well as updated samples.

[Jazzwee]

Which raises a new question...

 

The S90ES has Balanced Hammer action.

The P250, etc. have Graded Hammer Action.

 

An S6 Concert Grand, and I presume a CFIIIS Concert Grand, have Balanced action.

 

So why is it necessary to have Graded Hammer Action, so it feels like a cheap grand or an upright?

 

Just curious.

[Mark Schmieder]

Why on earth would Yamaha have used balanced hammer action on their top-of-line acoustic pianos? You have this backwards.

 

I MUCH prefer graded action as it is what most acoustic pianos use so is more intuitive and natural feeling for me.

 

Many synth players prefer balanced action because they want the same response on every note when playing triggered samples of violins or other instruments whose natural counterparts do not have huge differentials of resistance across their range.

 

An acoustic piano has different action across the keybed... that's what graded hammer action means. This is because each key is striking a different gauge string.

 

Graded Hammer action means that the keyboard emulates the action of a grand piano heavier in the bass and lighter in the treble areas of the keyboard (on a grand piano, the hammers get thicker as you move from treble to bass).

[orangefunk]

Yep I think you may be right about the CP, although the P range (except the P80) all use the same action, thats straight from Mike Martin. I'm wondering why the difference with the CP300 and P250.. they have the same form factor and everythign else.

 

Also why have Clavinova and the P action anyway? Aren't they all supposed to be graded and fulfil the purpose of (attempting!) emulating a real piano action?

[Mark Schmieder]

Remember that acoustic pianos vary in their action considerably. It's not as simple as which type of action is employed, but how it is implemented.

 

This is no different than discussing a "performance" car vs. a "workaday" car. You pay more to get the fancier implementation of the basic features, if it matters to you.

[orangefunk]

So you are saying that the Clavinova represents the best action from Yamaha? When I tried Clavinovas years ago I always felt they were over heavy for some reason.

 

Then I played one the of the CLP range (a CLP-120 I think)... I found it ghastly... even though the shop owner told me it was the same as the P120 it sure didn't sound like it.. :-)

 

I suppose the clavinova division may be differnt the division which makes the P range stuff.. who knows..

[hawk85]

Prior to this year's introduction of the P-65 & P-70, Yamaha's most recent P-series lineup used a Graded Hammer (GH) keyboard. The P-65 & P-70 use a Graded Hammer Standard keyboard and these are different from the GH keyboards. However, while the the former P-series (i.e., P-60, P-90, P-120, P-140) each had a GH keyboard, the keyboard assembly part numbers and prices differ across models.

[hawk85]

In the U.S., the P-series and CP-series are marketed through the Pro Audio & Combo (PAC) Division while Clavinovas are marketed through the Piano Division.

 

Additionally, three distinct keyboards (GH, GH3, and Natural Wood) are used in Yamaha's current Clavinova lineup (both the CLP & CVP series) Please see:

http://music.yamaha.com/products/highlights/keyboardsAST/8.html

[hawk85]

Originally posted by Mark Schmieder:

...they are almost all different. This becomes immediately evident when trying them out in a store as well.

I agree. In the case of the P-120, later manufactured models received an updated keyboard assembly.

[Jazzwee]

Originally posted by Mark Schmieder:

Why on earth would Yamaha have used balanced hammer action on their top-of-line acoustic pianos? You have this backwards.

 

I MUCH prefer graded action as it is what most acoustic pianos use so is more intuitive and natural feeling for me.

 

Many synth players prefer balanced action because they want the same response on every note when playing triggered samples of violins or other instruments whose natural counterparts do not have huge differentials of resistance across their range.

 

An acoustic piano has different action across the keybed... that's what graded hammer action means. This is because each key is striking a different gauge string.

 

Graded Hammer action means that the keyboard emulates the action of a grand piano heavier in the bass and lighter in the treble areas of the keyboard (on a grand piano, the hammers get thicker as you move from treble to bass).

I'm not kidding you here Mark. I regularly play on a Yamaha S6 Concert Grand. I tried out the Yamaha C3, Yamaha S4 at the Yamaha dealership. They all had balanced action. Clearly stated to me by the dealer. Now intuitively, actually, this is easily doable on a grand as they put weights on the keys themselves so it would be a trivial matter to put added weight on the bass keys (which they apparently do). This is something not possible I think on an upright since it is not driven by gravity.

 

Now some of these Yamaha Stage pianos are meant to emulate these concert grands (S6, S700, CFIIIS). Even the Fazioli has magnetic adjustable weights. So we should rethink the concept of Graded Weighting unless were are practicing for an upright.

 

My S90ES is not graded fortunately.

 

Yamaha link. See reference to "Balanced Action".

 

http://www.yamaha.com/yamahavgn/CDA/ContentDetail/ModelSeriesDetail/0,,CNTID%253D222%2526CTID%253D200700,00.html

[hawk85]

Jazzwee -

 

Every Yamaha, Steinway, and Bosendorfer I've ever tried has never felt like it had a "balanced action" in the way the term is used to describe the keyboards of digital pianos.

 

Are you saying that the Yamaha S4 and S6 you play that the keys feel equally resistant to downward finger force across all 88 keys? If so, are both of these pianos properly regulated?

 

I find it very hard to believe that any company would want to take away the way a grand piano has felt for the last few hundred years and replace it with the feel of a $2,000 modern day synth. Additionally, why would digital piano manufacturers undertake such elaborate designs to make the keys feel different? Neither case makes logical sense.

 

Yamaha's description of the Yamaha CFIIIS (~$150,000) also mentions "Yamaha balanced action." I would suggest that Yamaha's use of the term "Yamaha balanced action" refers to something much, much different in the world of their acoustics than "Balanced Action" does in their digitals.

[Jazzwee]

I just noticed too that all of the Yamaha acoustics have the term "Yamaha Balanced Action".

 

You could be right that they are using this to mean something completely different. The S6 I play on is consistently heavy and it appears to be regulated that way. The S4 and C3 I played on briefly was regulated to be light so I didn't notice the variation so much and I was away from the extremes of the piano. The salesman kept repeating the term "balanced" though.

 

On my upright (non-Yamaha), truly the difference in weight between the lower keys and upper keys is very noticeable. Maybe the term has something to do with having something closer to "balanced". On the other hand, I'm reading references to brand new pianos so maybe something's new?

[WWW]

Here is a thought on the CP300: The reason it feels so good to play is that the strong internal speakers provide a sympathetic 'feel' of strings vibration back to your fingers...So it feels more like an acc piano.. At least that is how I see it IMNSHO.

 

The CP33 sounds the same, and has the same keybed, but no sympathetic vibration...So it is a bit more sterile to the touch...

[JohnH]

The CP300 and CP33 both use the Graded Hammer Effect action, top of the line for Pro Audio Division instruments.

 

John

[gangsu]

Just a couple of thoughts to add to this ridiculous thread...

 

I rehearsed on a little C2 Yamaha grand tonight. I'm always curious why people claim digital "graded" actions are more similar to the "graded action" of an acoustic, and by George I did notice something peculiar.

 

First of All it's equally easy to get any key on an acoustic moving. The surface tension [or more accurately the "state of inertia"] is pretty much uniform [ie. balanced] straight across the board. There's the odd key that's going to stand out as being a little more stubborn than it's neighbours, not on a Fazioli mind you..

 

But it does take slightly more force to get the bass keys to sound. Depressing the key very gently will result in reaching that natural stop sooner, without engaging the hammer and following through to the string.

 

So. Rather than trying to imitate this difference mechanically by using assorted weights (which irritates the crap out me...) why not try this?

 

Set the *samples* up so that the bass keys take greater force than the treble to trigger the same dynamic level.

 

In other words, leave it in the hands of the player.

 

That's all I wanted to say. [after 2 edits ]

 

Thanks

[Finale]

Originally posted by gangsu:

So. Rather than trying to imitate this difference mechanically by using assorted weights (which irritates the crap out me...) why not try this?

 

Set the *samples* up so that the bass keys take greater force than the treble to trigger the same dynamic level.

Sue, that's truly a great idea.

 

You could even copyright this idea and sell it to GEM.

[Jazzwee]

Gangsu, I agree with that!

[StillFightingIt]

makes sense, and makes me wonder why no-one has thought of that before?

Sounds great Gangsu!

[Legatoboy]

I just bought a CP300 and a CP33 to replace my P120 and P250... disgusting I know! But I'm pretty sure they will sell locally or on Ebay fairly quickly (anybody!!!, both in great shape w/box, manuals, power etc).

 

This is what I have noticed.

 

The reason I bought the CP300 was that I was getting such a great stage and recording sound out of my P250 that the 'smoother' action of the CP300 just made it that much better, plus the zones thing and the 50 samples vs the 33. I had an older P250 with the stiffer action and sometimes my hands would get hung up on it. This was a luxury replace/purchase and I will have to live with myself! I got a year financing deal at Sam's Ass. The CP33 does cut better in the high end than the P250, something may be different in the low end on the new CP300 sample though, not sure yet... (see below P120 low end issue, related?).

 

I really needed the Zones on my P120 rig. I do alot of gigs for a guy with a day job and I need the sounds I need without having to reinvent the wheel midi wise. My P120 again was an older one with what I call the 'looser' P120 action. I had some great night with that piano. The newer ones I've played are more akin to the CP33's action. The CP33's action is again tighter still than the newer P120 but the samples are much better than the P120's samples except I miss the loosness and response of the P120's low end in feel and sound, it banged alittle better for some reason (not that I bang alot) , something about it's low end I miss (P120)....This was a more practical purchase....If things can be equated in those terms.

 

It's not just the action it's also how the samples interact with the action, and with the P120, even though the CP33 is a much better piano overall it is slightly less compressed ( I may be wrong) and that's what I think was the issue with my missed P120 low end.

 

LB

[Legatoboy]

I just bought a CP300 and a CP33 to replace my P120 and P250... disgusting I know! But I'm pretty sure they will sell locally or on Ebay fairly quickly (anybody!!!, both in great shape w/box, manuals, power etc).

 

This is what I have noticed.

 

The reason I bought the CP300 was that I was getting such a great stage and recording sound out of my P250 that the 'smoother' action of the CP300 just made it that much better, plus the zones thing and the 50 samples vs the 33. I had an older P250 with the stiffer action and sometimes my hands would get hung up on it. This was a luxury replace/purchase and I will have to live with myself! I got a year financing deal at Sam's Ass. The CP33 does cut better in the high end than the P250, something may be different in the low end on the new CP300 sample though, not sure yet... (see below P120 low end issue, related?).

 

I really needed the Zones on my P120 rig. I do alot of gigs for a guy with a day job and I need the sounds I need without having to reinvent the wheel midi wise. My P120 again was an older one with what I call the 'looser' P120 action. I had some great night with that piano. The newer ones I've played are more akin to the CP33's action. The CP33's action is again tighter still than the newer P120 but the samples are much better than the P120's samples except I miss the loosness and response of the P120's low end in feel and sound, it banged alittle better for some reason (not that I bang alot) , something about it's low end I miss (P120)....This was a more practical purchase....If things can be equated in those terms.

 

It's not just the action it's also how the samples interact with the action, and with the P120, even though the CP33 is a much better piano overall it is slightly less compressed ( I may be wrong) and that's what I think was the issue with my missed P120 low end.

 

LB

[Legatoboy]

Oh, comparing the CP300 to the CP33's action. Well I haven't paid too much attention to the graded issue on either board having come from P250/P120's. Kind of a known entity.

 

But....

 

Where I used to prefer playing my P120 action wise over my P250 (both older actions of those series), I now prefer the CP300 action over the CP33, it's just lusher and I can play more naturally on it, I have to stay on top of the CP33 slightly more than the CP300. They are not that far apart and CP33's is really superb, but the CP300 feels more like a Good Yamaha/Steinway type of action as opposed to say the CP33 feeling like a Kawai or somthing in those terms to me if they make any sense to anybody but me. I prefer to talk in subjective terms about this stuff.

 

Of course someone else would say one feels like a rough-tuff-cream-puff and the other like molasses....so, hey.... my 3 cents but I prefer the CP300 now that the other way around with the previous series pianos.

 

LB

 

[Legatoboy]

correction:

'if they make any sense '

 

to

 

'if that makes any sense '

 

LB

[gangsu]

Originally posted by LEGATOBOY:

'if that makes any sense '

Yes! I'll listen to subjective observations all day.

 

I wanted to say thanks to Cydonia, StillFightingIt, and JazzWee. It's really cool when somebody cares enough to understand what you're trying to say.

 

Cydonia, not a bad idea to use the touch settings accordingly. I can't do that on the promega. Score one for Kurzweil.

[Legatoboy]

I can vouch for Jazwee Gangsu, he has an inquiring mind and takes time to understand!

 

Anybody with the patience to wad through my jabber and get something out of my disordered overstocked mind deserves mention! ( ex. 'What is a Jazz Tune Today' thread of yesteryear,... it's still going on I think (the thread) by holy cows of indja!)

 

LB

[gangsu]

YOU started that thread? Shame on you.

[gangsu]

sorry ProfD, got my credits mixed up. Oh well, you were definitely a huge contributor!

[Legatoboy]

That wasn't a thread.... that was a rope! And I almost hung meself with it! A very good work out indeedee!

 

lb

[Finale]

Originally posted by gangsu:

Score one for Kurzweil.

Just one? Hey, I forgot to tell you. You know that pic of your Promega + rhythm thingie you recently posted somewhere. I couldn't find a single particle of dust on your piano.

 

Was the pic photoshopped? Otherwise, you really take great care of it.