Are keyboard players becoming a dying breed?

[Jazzwee]

Unfortunately Jazz is not the most popular of the genres. However, note that to this day, Jazz is driven by Piano players. Obviously to the Jazz fan, the piano player is the coolest.

 

I play guitar too (so Dick can call me cool!) and I tend to play different music depending on the instrument. I gravitate towards rock on the guitar and jazz on the piano.

 

What is not cool about a guitar is that unless you're in a band, it is not as interesting by itself as a keyboard or piano is by itself. Which is obviously why music production usually uses keyboardists. We can emulate all instruments.

 

All we need is some new pop star that uses keyboards primarily and the popularity of this instrument will soar! Come to think of it, there's Vanessa Carlton. Ok we need more.

[Steve Force]

Originally posted by Jazzwee:

All we need is some new pop star that uses keyboards primarily and the popularity of this instrument will soar! Come to think of it, there's Vanessa Carlton. Ok we need more.

Imogen Heap.

 

(Who, BTW, used my Yamaha P-200 when she visited Detroit's (formerly) great public radio station, WDET back in Fall, 2005.)

[Steve Force]

Originally posted by Dick Ward (MP Hall of Fame Wannabe):

All I know is keyboard players (hopefully I'm somewhat of an exeption, but probably not) are not cool, and no amount of staying inside and programming while snubbing social events isn't helping:p

WTF you talkin' about, Dick?

 

I think keyboardist are AWESOMELY cool, and so do my friends!

 

Here is a recent phoro of myself..

 

http://www.discoverengineering.org/cool_things/cd/images/Geek.gif

 

 

(Just kidding! )

[Dave Horne]

I don't know if we're a dying breed, but I am really hard pressed to find suitable subs for when I'm double booked. The other piano players I know, I mostly know from speaking on the telephone and not from in person; we never meet.

 

Bass players on the other hand always seem to have more than enough work and I can usually call one at the last minute and still be sure of some quality in his playing.

 

If I didn't play piano, I'd probably play bass.

[RABid]

When has their ever been an abundance of keyboard players? Since 1980 I dont remember a time that I could not step into a decent working band. Gear is no more expensive now than it was in 1980. In fact it is cheaper. Sure you can spend $8000 for a single keyboard, but do you really need to? In 1982 I was hauling a $12,000 rig from bar to bar. Today I can spend $4000 and be really happy. $1000 will get the job done.

 

Robert

[Dick Ward MP Hall of Fame]

Not true. As I said, these musicians that I speak of doing movies and TV are no slouches. I'm talking about Emmy nominated types of people.[/QB]

Yeah, but that's studio music. That hardly counts. I know a lot of people that make money as engineers but I don't know any little kids that are excited about it!

 

Keyboard driven music doesn't help either. Trent Reznor doesn't rock his boards live anymore, and half the bands I see with keys use them prerecorded and don't bring the player with them.

 

The question wasn't 'are there succesful keyboard players' but about why there are less new keyboardists. I think two things will help.

 

1.) An interesting keyboardist. Right now, every keyboardist I see on TV (when I see them) is more concerned with playing accurately than having fun. That's not doing us any good guys.

 

2.) Budget synths. Let's face is, the lower end Casio and Yamaha leaves a LOT to be desired, and what kid wants a digital piano? I think the SH-201 will be a help, as it's price is very Christmas friendly. Moreso than anything else anyway. It seems like it'll be decent and it's not too expensive.

[soundscape]

Originally posted by Dick Ward (MP Hall of Fame Wannabe):

Keyboard driven music doesn't help either.

It doesn't...? Where's the current keyboard driven music?

[Dick Ward MP Hall of Fame]

Someone suggested that keyboard driven music helps, and I used Nine Inch Nails as an example of a keyboard driven band. While Trent Reznor is very cool and appeals to a lot of kids who would probably pick up boards, he doesn't play them live, so it does us no good.

 

As far as current keyboard driven music, there isn't much, you're correct. More and more metal bands are using keys and that seems to have boosted the amount of metal keyboardists a bit, which is nice, but what would be really nice (I stress it again) is if one of those keyboardists looked happy to be playing live. They all look like sad/drunk geeks who just don't want to be seen. No one wants to be them. People want to be the guitar player who is running around on stage having the time of his life, not the sad sap in the corner, no matter how keyboard driven the song is.

[RABid]

Originally posted by Dick Ward (MP Hall of Fame Wannabe):

Someone suggested that keyboard driven music helps, and I used Nine Inch Nails as an example of a keyboard driven band. While Trent Reznor is very cool and appeals to a lot of kids who would probably pick up boards, he doesn't play them live, so it does us no good.

 

As far as current keyboard driven music, there isn't much, you're correct. More and more metal bands are using keys and that seems to have boosted the amount of metal keyboardists a bit, which is nice, but what would be really nice (I stress it again) is if one of those keyboardists looked happy to be playing live. They all look like sad/drunk geeks who just don't want to be seen. No one wants to be them. People want to be the guitar player who is running around on stage having the time of his life, not the sad sap in the corner, no matter how keyboard driven the song is.

You know hot to combat that. Every keyboardist should have a keytar.

 

Robert

[soundscape]

Originally posted by Dick Ward (MP Hall of Fame Wannabe):

Someone suggested that keyboard driven music helps, and I used Nine Inch Nails as an example of a keyboard driven band. While Trent Reznor is very cool and appeals to a lot of kids who would probably pick up boards, he doesn't play them live, so it does us no good.

Well, does NIN sound like keyboard-driven music to the average person?

 

I tried to explain to someone once that [insert name of lame band whose name I totally forget here ] wasn't--well, at least as far as I could tell--using "real" drums or maybe even "real" anything else, sounded like music was created on a "computer" (to put it in simple terms) but they wouldn't have any of it.

 

Thing is, though, there isn't too much music these days that showcases sounds that could only have come from what most people would consider a keyboard. (e.g., Most people don't know what a soft-synth is, play synthy-sounds and they'll think of a keyboard.) The only keyboard sound I can think of that's acceptable to showcase is piano.

 

(Genres that do showcase synthy sounds today, "electronica," say, don't seem to be associated with strong keyboard playing and much appears to be created by people with limited knowledge of music theory or songwriting.)

[stepay]

Gonna have to agree that you don't need to spend $8,000 on gear to be a keyboard player. I use one of the lower-end keyboards (Roland Juno-D), and while I can now see that down the road I'd like something better (aftertouch would be nice, and 88 keys would be nice although not necessary for me), if you can PLAY well, something as simple as the Juno-D can do the job (unless of course you're in a band where you're a sound effects person; if you're just a keyboard player using mostly organs and piano, a lower-end keyboard will do the job, especially if you can play and you have decent amplification). I bought my Juno-D for $595. Since I bought it, I've made more than $2,500 as an approximately 2 times a month keyboard player (I don't do it for the money).

 

As far as the coolness factor goes, that always goes to the lead guitarist first, the drummer second and the rythym guitarist third. If the bass player is good, he gets to be next and may slip in ahead of the rythym guitarist, and the keyboard player is usually last (except in rare cases). A keyboard player can improve the coolness factor if he sings lead.

 

On the abundance of keyboard players, I also agree that it seems to be the same since the late 80s anyway. I played in a band in California in the 80s-early 90s, and at the time really had no business playing live music (just wasn't that good then), but I was able to because the demand was high. Now (after learning a bit from the members of that band and some additional lessons and practice on my part) I'm worlds better than then, but I'm still glad that I could step into almost any local band at any time just because I'm in high demand. I've ALWAYS heard the mantra that if you want to join a band, you learn to play bass or keyboards. Lead guitarists are a dime a dozen in Columbus, OH, and they flock to blues jams just so they can play live. Many are very good but can't get into a band to save their lives because there are 10 guys equally as good or better auditioning for an opening.

 

So, the result is I can come an go as I please as a keyboard player. Woo Hoo!

[Dick Ward MP Hall of Fame]

NIN sounds like keyboard music to the people I talk to. I can't speak for anyone else.

 

I'd consider a dude using a midi controller and a softsynth on stage to be a keyboardist, so I'm not sure what you meant by the soft synth remark.

 

 

Robert, I know you're joking, but hey, I do it. I'm in a metal band and I play a keytar. I'm also a very well received and well known member of the community. People point me out as being a blast to watch, and they seem to dig my playing. I'm not saying I'm going to be the saviour of keyboards, just saying what I do.

 

I guess that brings me to another point. Keyboards are a very exclusive and spooky club full of secrets and mysteries, and I really don't get it. Line 6 has products that will make guitars sound like any band you want, and people actually help eachother out with sounds. Keyboardists seem to be very protective of their sounds and such. It's a much harder community to get into it seems.

[Phred]

When I play live I stand up and dance like a freak. I do hammond conga things with my forearms. I tilt my keyboard to one side while soloing - etc...

 

I constantly hear that I am the best keyboard player in my city. Honestly - I am not even close. I know enough to sound okay, but it is not my chops they are talking about - it's the energy and the show.

[soundscape]

Originally posted by Dick Ward (MP Hall of Fame Wannabe):

NIN sounds like keyboard music to the people I talk to. I can't speak for anyone else.

Well, maybe I didn't listen to too much NIN, but last time I checked, distorted guitars dominated...

 

I'd consider a dude using a midi controller and a softsynth on stage to be a keyboardist, so I'm not sure what you meant by the soft synth remark.

What I mean is that the average person (who knows NOTHING about keyboards) has no clue what a soft-synth is (or a module, for that matter.). So when they heard a synthy-sound, they more than likely picture a it being created by a keyboard.

 

To make something "cool" it has to be... (shock, horror) pretty much mainstream... Guitars are mainstream. So when you say "NIN sounds like keyboard music to the people I talk to. I can't speak for anyone else," to me this is absolutely about thinking about the people you don't talk to! This is about getting Joe Sixpack to think, "hmm, to play that awesome song, you need to learn keyboards!"

[Dick Ward MP Hall of Fame]

What I mean is that the average person (who knows NOTHING about keyboards) has no clue what a soft-synth is (or a module, for that matter.). So when they heard a synthy-sound, they more than likely picture a it being created by a keyboard.

I guess I just don't see the relevence.

 

 

I still call NIN keyboard music. But you're right about the mainstream. This is why I keep stressing the point that keyboardists on a whole need to be less boring! Joe Sixpack sees Eddie Van Halen jumping around and then sees Jordan Rudess.. okay, he probably doesn't see Rudess, but if he did, he'd see him being very very dull.

 

Phred makes a good point, and I don't know how many guitar players are 'the best ever' because they have energy and charisma, while having very little actual ability. I bet people look at keyboards a lot differently when you play them though. You look like a musician, not like a guy doing data entry.

[RABid]

Originally posted by Dick Ward (MP Hall of Fame Wannabe):

... Robert, I know you're joking, but hey, I do it. ....

Actually I am only partially joking because of the recent threads on this forum. In truth I owned a Yamaha remote that was designed to work with the DX-7. It got me out in front of the band, but that did not get me noticed any more than the rhythm player.

 

The way to be noticed on stage is to break out of the piano/organ/pads/orchestration mode. Being in the rhythm section and filling the background can only go so far. Playin a piano intro gets you noticed by other musicians. Piano solos and organ solos do not what make the people in the crowd imagine themselves play keyboard. You need to work that synth and make it scream. Get good with pitch bend and learn to make a synth growl. Play more like a lead guitarist or sax on solos. Put some real emotiin into those lines. Also, you've got to use your effects potential to the max. Many of you have read the thread where I mentioned the night I cleared the loby of the Moose Lodge by faking police sirens on my synths fading in from a distance. THAT draws attention. That is how I combat playing on stage with a ripping guitarist.

 

In my first band I played with a guitarist that ended up playing lead for Barbara Mandrel for years. Early on I knew I could either fight for attention, get blown off of the stage, or be content sitting in the background. I have never been one to sit in the background. A stack of synths was my weapon of choice. I made them work for me.

 

Robert

[burningbusch]

Originally posted by RABid:

When has their ever been an abundance of keyboard players? Since 1980 I dont remember a time that I could not step into a decent working band.

Robert

This is my perspective as well. In my area Craigslist has as many posts for keyboard players needed as guitar players. Guitar players, bass players, etc are a dime a dozen. I've had to limit myself as to the number of new projects I've taken on.

 

Busch.

[Dick Ward MP Hall of Fame]

Hell yeah Rabid, I get so sick of people that sit by the drums and play pads. Why even be on stage if you're just gonna fill out the sound? That's like having a bass player that just follows the guitar. We can't find a bass player that adds anything to the band, so we're currently playing without one. Why have a member on stage that's not useful?

[Mr. Nightime]

I had a friend recently remind me of a show I did back in the early 80s in Anchorage, Alaska with Blues legend Jimmie Rogers. He was watching the video of that night. He commented that the bass player and drummer were locked in as a unit, the guitar player had the perfect tone to compliment Jimmie's playing, the harp player (the friend with the tape) was understated and tasteful, and I was all over the place with well placed fills and leads. He commented that as a whole we sounded like a truly authentic blues band, like there was a sign saying "No White Boy Licks Allowed." (Yes, with the exception of Jimmie, we were all white.)

I learned the value of playing more than just chords and pads about 2 nights before when I worked with Jimmie in Homer, AK. He came to me after the first set and told me that I played good, just not nearly enough. And this from a guitar player! The rest of the weekend I played like a madman, and my eyes really opened to the possibilities of keys.

There are just too many people out there that feel intimidated by the music and are so afraid of making a mistake they're afraid to play. Go For It!! So what if you make a mistake. Some of the best musical ideas ever started off as mistakes.

What is scary to me about the state of our chosen instrument is there are so many that do think they can play because they know a few chords. I've gone into music stores and seen this. I recently went into GC in Orlando, and sat down and played some boogie on an Oasys. A crowd gathered because so few of them had heard someone that could play not only with both hands, but with rhythm. We need more players that can, and maybe Keys will no longer be considered the perview of the nerd. (I know I'm not a nerd. A Geek maybe.... )

 

My advice to any that want to play and be cool....Get up there and rock out!! Put the guitar players in their place.

[Root]

Phred I get told the same thing and it's the same situation with me. I'm a far cry from the best keys player in the city (although I don't know of any good ones my age) but the show, energy, environment etc makes my keyboard seem exciting. I was also told that I move and dance more than anyone on the stage, which is weird cause I'm not even aware of it (and I sit down.)

 

Anyone ever seen a band called Oh My God or Them vs Them? Oh My God is a drummer, a guy with an overdriven VK7 through a 122, and a wildman front man. If you get the chance go see them, they are a great example of an exciting, keyboard driven band.

[Jazzwee]

Originally posted by Dick Ward (MP Hall of Fame Wannabe):

Not true. As I said, these musicians that I speak of doing movies and TV are no slouches. I'm talking about Emmy nominated types of people.

Yeah, but that's studio music. That hardly counts. I know a lot of people that make money as engineers but I don't know any little kids that are excited about it!

 

[/QB]

I think we are assuming that Keyboardists are a dying breed when we think of the metal/punk/rock live performances and being in the limelight.

 

If the thread were: "are keyboardists not in the limelight?" I would agree and except in Jazz, they mostly never are and never were.

 

But as musicians, due to the advent of MIDI and sequencers, keyboardist skills will always be in high demand especially in recordings. Yep, it's not in the limelight, but it surely counts.

 

Is the goal to be noticed (physically)? Or is the goal to have music noticed?

 

I play lead guitar. I have to admit that many lead guitar players don't know anything about music theory. But the instrument is loud and noticeable. It's just the nature of the beast. I can't make sophisticated music (what is sophisticated in my mind) without a piano or keyboard.

 

So if one seeks attention, then obviously the keyboards won't provide that. (Good) Vocals will always get the most attention.

[linwood]

mr. Nightime,

What an honor to play with him. Did you get to do Walking by Myself ? One of my favs.

[Dick Ward MP Hall of Fame]

Seemed like the question was asking about kids becoming keyboard players. I've never heard a 10 year old say he wanted to be a studio musician Jazzwee

 

I don't think it's a matter of what instrument you play, I think it's a matter of how you play it. I get far more attention than the lead guitarist in our band, because I'm exciting to watch and listen to. He's better musically than me, but lacks in other departments. I compete with the drummer for attention, which he garners due to the fact that he is completely amazing, and looks like he's going to jump over the set and kill someone at all times. If a drummer can get attention sitting behind all that gear, then keyboard players certainly can.

 

Just like Mr. Nightime said, get up there and rock out!

[Root]

Originally posted by Jazzwee:

I play lead guitar. I have to admit that many lead guitar players don't know anything about music theory. But the instrument is loud and noticeable.

Our guitar player is a theory nut. We also have to constantly tell him to turn it up!

[Mr. Nightime]

Originally posted by linwood:

mr. Nightime,

What an honor to play with him. Did you get to do Walking by Myself ? One of my favs.

Yep

And he made sure that we DIDN'T go to the 5 like everyone else does. The original stayed on the 4.

 

He offered me a gig after the first night, but that was after the Whiskey took effect.

 

That first night I played with him, we couldn't figure out why Ludella, his guitar, wouldn't stay in tune. Turns out the neck had come unglued at the body in transit, so he played all night with a broken guitar. No one in the crowd noticed, he was so good. Our guitar player took Ludella home with him that night and fixed her.

[Jazzwee]

Originally posted by Dick Ward (MP Hall of Fame Wannabe):

Seemed like the question was asking about kids becoming keyboard players. I've never heard a 10 year old say he wanted to be a studio musician Jazzwee

Well if you asked my kid when he was 10, he wondered why I was giving him guitar lessons. He was into Rap. They don't use guitars in Rap. So he thought guitars were totally uncool. At that time, he would have considered all the synth effects on a keyboard to be cool for doing hip hop and rap (no music knowledge required).

 

A couple of years later. He abandoned Rap. He got hooked onto playing Stairway to Heaven and started listening to rock.

 

My 10 year old now plays piano. He doesn't care what music he plays.

 

The point is, there's a difference between kids playing around with instruments and those wanting to be really good musicians. When one is so driven by music that they want to be 'musicians' to the full degree of skill, different choices are made.

 

Of course the type of music that is popular at the moment affects what is popular to 10 year olds. Since it is currently Rap, then DJ stuff would be more interesting than any instrument.

[linwood]

You're my new hero around here. Too cool. When I was maybe 19, I was playing with Southside Johnny for a couple years and he introduced me to all this great music. Lil' Walter,Big Bill Broonzy, and Jimmy. I love going out and hearing guys play the blues. I like the way Leon played that tune when he recorded it with Freddie King. Classic record.

[Mr. Nightime]

My friend told me that as soon as he gets a DVD burner, he'll make a copy of the video and send it to me. I'll post a bit of it to the forum when I get it.

I still have the audio cassette of the first night I played with Jimmie. And, Walkin' is on it.

Ron

[delirium]

That was actually reall meaning of series real men dont but not so many understood this way.

Most of the new keyboard players are interested only in new features and more unique sounds. Wood instruments survived somehow this trend.

If we were to compare all the post in this forum about keyboard hardware against keyboard skills or keyboard soul the result would be probably sad

[Dick Ward MP Hall of Fame]

Wood instruments survived the gear trend? I dunno man, ever seen the amount of stompboxes and processors guitarists bring on stage? The electric guitar is just like a midi controller for the various sounds, it's just shaped and played different:p Take the Variax for example, no pickups, just sends data via a Cat 5 cable.

 

 

Jazz, I understand your point completely, and maybe I set the age too young there. I still stand by my point that while studio keyboardists thrive, live ones are too dull on stage and in video to generate much interest.

 

Seems like turntables are out, by the way. I saw Ice-T's old DJ, Evil-E, and the crowd didn't care at all about his amazing amount of skill, they just danced to the beats he spun, and then looked confused when he did something different and interesting. The guys on the mic are the ones that get the interest. If your kid IS into rap, get him a mic