Who likes discordant music?

[Cliffk]

This is following on from recent threads (Garrafon's, concerning the E7#9, as well as the thread about Herbie's playing 'outside', which some guys liked and some didn't, particularly). Personally, I'm all for discordant-sounding pieces, providing they fit into my aesthetic perameters. A songwriting friend never fails to wince violently when I stick in what I think is a totally appropriate #13th, say, into his perfectly-formed triad !

 

As keyboard players, I'd suppose that many of you guys and gals have a more sympathetic ear to musical 'discord' than say ( ahem ) guitarists would. Am I right in assuming that? How much supposedly 'clashing' notes do you accept before crying: "Enough!" (Jazz cats, please behave on this one.)

[Dave Horne]

First we have to measure the amount of tension in a piece (chord by chord) since this is such a subjective issue.

 

I took a course in writing in the style of Paul Hindemith and he devised a way of measuring the tension by looking at the various intervals in the chords. His use of this, if I recall correctly, was more for compositional technique - making the piece build in a logical way.

 

I'll put a 'busy' jazz CD on which will drive my wife crazy. Different levels for different folks.

 

The point is, there are objective ways to measure the degree of dissonance.

[Prague]

As a bass player also, I enjoy "altering the root" to add color. It isn't always discordant, as even the big chords can be very pleasing.

 

I have a section where a Rhodes solo comps with Gm7 to Ab6 (4 counts each). On the bass, I play C to C#. Hmmm. What would those bass notes properly be called? What would the chords be called?

[Dave Horne]

Originally posted by Prague:

As a bass player also, I enjoy "altering the root" to add color. It isn't always discordant, as even the big chords can be very pleasing.

 

I have a section where a Rhodes solo comps with Gm7 to Ab6 (4 counts each). On the bass, I play C to C#. Hmmm. What would those bass notes properly be called? What would the chords be called?

Do you mean four counts of Gm7\C and then four counts of Ab6\C#?

 

If that's what you mean, it would be easier to write it as Gm7\C ... Db maj9 ... (That C# is really a Db and that Ab6 is really the rest of the Db maj 9 chord (Db, F, Ab, C, Eb).

 

... or do you mean that the bass notes are quarter notes travelling back and forth from C to Db under both chords? The term appoggiatura comes to mind.

[BluesKeys]

Progue, I would certainly write it like Dave suggested but I believe the chords would be Gm11 and Db.

 

I find guitar players winch when I put in the substitutions and most of them struggle to find the chord. I recall only one guitar player in the last 5 years or so that actually taught me a chord. It is the 2nd chord, I still am not sure what the name of it is but it is in Keb Moe's Dangerous Mood. The 1st chord in the verse is G7,2nd Chord F11? (G,Bb,Eb/F bass), Db13, C9 and flavor with a 6. It's a fun tune especially to play leads in.

[Prague]

Originally posted by Dave Horne:

Do you mean four counts of Gm7\C and then four counts of Ab6\C#?

 

If that's what you mean, it would be easier to write it as Gm7\C ... Db maj9 ... (That C# is really a Db and that Ab6 is really the rest of the Db maj 9 chord (Db, F, Ab, C, Eb).

 

The term appoggiatura comes to mind.

Correct.

 

I just stumbled onto playing it this way on a Hammond. On the same manual, I just added a C an octave and a fifth below the Gm7. Sounded nice and juicy on the Hammond, so I tried it with the Rhodes in the actual tune.

 

Since the progression went up 1 semitone, I did the smae with the bass note, from C to C# [sic]. Sounded good, too. It sounds even better as a Db, though.

 

Played live, the keyboardist still comps a Gm7 (G Bb D F) and solos with the RH. The bass plays the C. The next measure comps Ab6 and the bass plays a Db.

 

Prog(ressive) Rock can have it's charms.

[Dan South]

I like discordant forums.

 

Originally posted by cliffk:

A songwriting friend never fails to wince violently when I stick in what I think is a totally appropriate #13th, say, into his perfectly-formed triad !

Isn't #13 the same as a seventh? In C, the #13 would be Bb (A#).

 

As keyboard players, I'd suppose that many of you guys and gals have a more sympathetic ear to musical 'discord' than say ( ahem ) guitarists would. Am I right in assuming that?

As a non-keyboardist, I can't say for sure, but it seems easier to explore the extension on a keyboard than a fretboard.

 

How much supposedly 'clashing' notes do you accept before crying: "Enough!" (Jazz cats, please behave on this one.)

It depends on the music and what it's trying to communicate. Being 'out' for the sake of being out doesn't impress me. I like some 20th C. classical music but despise a lot of it, too. Eric Dolphy was fun but I never liked Ornette Coleman. I can't explain why. It just happens that way.

 

P.S. a 7#9 chord is not "discordant" IMO.

[DafDuc]

You want "out" listen to some Olivier Messaien. That's some wack tonality there.

 

I enjoy it in small doses. In both its jazz and classical forms. Too much makes me crazy.

[Garrafon]

Originally posted by Dan South:

Isn't #13 the same as a seventh? In C, the #13 would be Bb (A#).

6th, no?

[Richard Lainhart]

It is the 2nd chord, I still am not sure what the name of it is but it is in Keb Moe's Dangerous Mood. ... 2nd Chord F11? (G,Bb,Eb/F bass), ....

I'd notate it as Eb/F, and call it an F9sus.

 

I was taught that 11th chords usually include the 3rd of the chord, and so an F11 with a Bb would usually be a minor 11 - F, Ab, C, Eb, (G), Bb. A major F chord would usually have a #11 - F, A, C, E, (G), B. In the context, this chord would seem to be a dominant chord, so the Bb would function more as a suspended 4th than as an 11th. Chords without thirds are ambiguous, of course, so it's hard to say for sure.

[marino]

Originally posted by DafDuc:

You want "out" listen to some Olivier Messaien. That's some wack tonality there.

That's 'Messiaen'... we could call his late compositional style "advanced polytonality". But for real dissonant stuff, try some Webern, Stockhausen, Wuorinen...

 

Seriously, the degree of dissonance is only in part linked with the overall 'pleasantness' of a piece. Try to listen to Gyorgy Ligeti's "Lontano" or "Atmospheres"; very complex, dense clustering harmonies, but they flow extremely smoothly.

As always, music is more than the sum of its parts. In jazz, for example, the harmonies are complex, but the way they progress and how they interact with rhythm gives a very 'logic' flow to that complexity.

[Phil W]

Enough to have spent many hours finding ways to play clusters on the 4 string bass!

 

#13??? - typo, cliffk? bit like calling a root a sharp 7th.

[ITGITC]

Forgive me Lord for I have sinned.

 

In my youth I was addicted to the dreaded Major Seventh. All the records I bought and most all the tunes I played begged to be ended in a Major Seventh chord. Since I grew up in the Baptist church and often played the church pianos after Sunday School, I just KNEW that the choir would love the way I rewrote the hymnal and replaced those stodgy tri-tones with the added flare of a Major Seventh.

 

But one day a fellow musician (a drummer) convinced me to try something 'harder'. They say that marijuana is a springboard to harder drugs. Well, my 'friend' turned me on to the Major Ninth, Eleventh, and even the Major Thirteeth chords. I would stay up at night pondering the self-pleasure of revoicing all the songs I had ever played with these phenomenal-sounding chords.

 

My record player was turning 24/7. Listening to Does Anybody Know What Time It Is?, Leaving on a Jet Plane, You Are The Sunshine of my Life and my sister's collection of 'Bread' albums sent goosebumps up and down my spine.

 

I knew that when I was old enough, I wanted to be just like Richard Carpenter.

 

But one day, as I was listening to music over at my drummer's house, I found this record. As a matter of fact, it turned out to be Karen and Richard with their discordion. This was an underground album and was never distributed by the major labels. Somehow my drummer knew how to get his hands on the best contraband. Luckily I was his friend.

 

http://www.tlhenry.com/photos/accordion.jpg

 

And that did it. That turned my life around. Listening to Karen and Richard singing and playing their hearts out with that discordion set me free. I kicked the Major Seventh habit for good. And I owe it all to discordant music. I really like discordant music. In fact, I could listen to Frank Yankovic all day long.

 

 

http://www.oldies.com/images/boxart/large/3/079892332728.jpg

 

So, to answer your question directly, Of course I like discordant music. Doesn't everybody?

[Garrafon]

Ummm, Tom, you do know that the beer drinking festivities start TOMORROW, right?

[David Loving]

There was a discordian up for auction on eBay a while back. The keyboard [rt hand] had 1/4 tone steps, 49 keys, so it was also useful for middle eastern and Indian tunes, the buttons played only chord clusters and shapes, and were arranged in the Mescal-Random system so that no matter what chord cluster you chose, it did not fit, insuring dissonance. The listing said the instrument was suitable for beginner to advanced and no lessons were needed. It said that the instrument sounded better if you were drunk.

[Cliffk]

Originally posted by Phil W:

#13??? - typo, cliffk? bit like calling a root a sharp 7th.

Yeah, I just put down the oddest-sounding note, without thinking of what it actually is - man, you guys are sticklers .

[Finale]

Of course, as most people I need a monthly dose of dissonant aggressive music... My favorites of this genre go to Bartók, Skriabin late works, Prokofiev, Ginastera, Gray and... Fripp.

 

Bartók definitely knew how to ressuscitate the horse out of string bows to get people's hair stand on end in his 4th quartet.

[Jeff Klopmeyer]

Originally posted by cliffk:

As keyboard players, I'd suppose that many of you guys and gals have a more sympathetic ear to musical 'discord' than say ( ahem ) guitarists would. Am I right in assuming that?

Whaaaaaaaaaaaat?

 

Not even. Appreciation of dischordant music and performance goes way beyond the instrument of choice. Even single-note instruments like sax can run dischordant lines like mad.

 

And yes, I'm a guitarist, as well as a hack keyboardist.

 

- Jeff

[ITGITC]

Originally posted by daviel:

There was a discordian up for auction on eBay a while back. It said that the instrument sounded better if you were drunk.

 

Hmmmmmmm... the discordian, the banjo, the sequencer/drum machine, the vocoder... Let's get drunk and form a BAND!

[David Loving]

Aaahh, angular banjos sound good to me. See you guys later, my copy of Morph the Cat just arrived in the mail.

[Finale]

Originally posted by Is There Gas in the Car?:

I found this record. As a matter of fact, it turned out to be Karen and Richard with their discordion.

http://www.tlhenry.com/photos/accordion.jpg

I'm glad you specified, otherwise I would have guessed it was Sonny and Cher ultra-rare very first album.

[ITGITC]

Originally posted by daviel:

Aaahh, angular banjos sound good to me. See you guys later, my copy of Morph the Cat just arrived in the mail.

Mine came yesterday from Amazon.

 

cnegrad pre-ordered too.

 

I'd be interested to hear your opinions.

 

I'm not going to give you mine until you've had a chance to listen a few times - once is not enough.

 

+1 on the angular banjos.

[Urbanaut]

Okay, here goes...

 

In the key of C:

 

C = Root (Tonic, Mamma, etc...)

C# = #1

Db = b9 (b2)

D = 9 (2)

D# = #9 (#2)

Eb = b3

E = 3

F = 11 (4)

F# = #11 (#4)

Gb = b5

G = 5

G# = #5

Ab = b13 (b6)

A = 13 (6)

A# = #6

Bb = b7

B = 7

 

This is how I see all the notes and their possible names in the context of contempory music (classical, jazz, pop, etc..) based on tertian diatonic harmony.

 

 

Concerning dissonance, I feel that one enjoys dissonance if one can hear and understand it. Most listeners of country don't want to listen to Scriabin, or Bird, etc... yet the people who listen to Scriabin, Bird, etc... may have dismissed Country as "simple." Maybe, maybe not.

 

The point is, dissonace is completely subjective, and as music has progressed over the years, intervals and sounds that were once taboo have become accepted in popular and art cultures around the world. Certain musical styles have embraced certain segments of the stream of harmonic concepts over the years and have adhered to those conventions for a long time. Imagine hearing an alt chord in a Willie Nelson tune? (Might be kind of cool actually, IMHO.)

 

As an example, Monk was ahead of his time when he came out, but since I'm a young guy, I discovered him years and years after he came and went, so he seemed tame to me. Not until I understood the history of Monk and when and where he came from, did I appreciate him and his accomplishments.

 

I think all music is valid, as long as it vibrates the air around us all with energy and emotion from the places inside of us we cannot explain.

 

Cheers,

Urbanaut

 

 

(By the way, I'm currently enjoy Brad Mehldau's harmonic concepts the most. Holy crap he's good.)

[Magpel]

Originally posted by Dave Horne:

 

 

The point is, there are objective ways to measure the degree of dissonance.

Objective? Perhaps, though I think it is more a matter of an individual's acclimation or sensitization to the harmonic materials. And the other big point: a coherent practice of dissonance will work on our ears whether or not we have the ability to comprehend it. Incoherent, arbitray dissonance, while striking occasional moments of interest, most often will not.

 

A big--though by no menas the only--part of appreciating more "discordant" materials is learning to actively suppress your expectations of chord movement and, especilly, resolutions. But then the big question is hanging in the air: okay, you're not giving me what I'm used to in terms of harmony and resolution--so what are you giving me in its place? Is it enough to be "jarring" because the world we live in is jarring (an incredible piece of sophistry that I hear often from the mouths of freshman English students)?

 

Carlo mentioned Wuoronin, whom I love and yet I couldn't explain for a moment why. I could not even begin to analyze or explain his "system" yet it strikes me as deeply coherent and wonderfully expressive. My ears are way ahead of my intellect in this regard, and I think that's a pretty common situation.

 

One thing I hate is people loving dissonancew for what essentially amount to political reasons. You know what I mean. I can't tall you how many people I've met elevate late Coltrane, for example, above all othe jazz icons, and it is painfully obvious that their ears had nothing to do with the judgement--just the political machinations of reputation.

[Eric Iverson]

Dissonance can be quite beautiful in the right context! Or sound simply ridiculous in the wrong one!

 

I mean, how many Bartokian chords would you want to put in a country tune?

 

As far as singers, they often DO have a hard time singing over complex chords! One song I wrote had some 11th chords backing the vocal, and we had to replace them with major chords for her to hear the melody note, much to my surprise - the girl has a good ear and sings nice harmonies!

 

But none of the musicians I knew had any problem hearing the melody!

[Jeff Klopmeyer]

Originally posted by Eric Iverson:

I mean, how many Bartokian chords would you want to put in a country tune?

I shot my pickup truck (Ebm#9/C#)...

 

 

- Jeff