Respect Herbie always - but isnt this Sh!t??

[Steve Nathan]

There must not be as many jazzplayers here as I thought.....

What HH and BE are doing on that video is an old -at least from bop on, especially from the '60's on - jazz convention. Herbie is a master at it. Not everybody appreciates it... But a lot of us do, especially players who realize what is going on. This is something you won't hear on your smooth jazz station. That's why I said that some ought to listen harder. There is a strong atonal, "outside", convention, especially when players are trading 4's ..... try running a whole tone scale sometime - you can play it over about anything.

So if I don't like this particular performance it must be because

1. I'm not a Jazz player

2. I don't "get" it (realize what's going on)

3. I'm an unsophisticated "Smooth Jazz" fan

4. I haven't listened hard enough

 

Bullsh*t

 

I'm no smooth jazz fan and I certainly know what "playing outside" is. Herbie is, as you've said, (usually) quite good at it. Scofield (IMHO) is even better. When either is at their best, their is always an intangible thread back from wherever they've gone to the heart and soul of the song.

However, in this performance, Herbie was spitting out a laundry list of stock disconnected outside licks and phrases like he was reading them off a menu.

Like you say, it's a matter of taste. I don't like it and you do. Fine, but to borrow an old Jewish phrase, "don't piss up my back and tell me it's raining".

Steve Nathan

[Michelle ggurl]

Originally posted by Rabid:

Originally posted by geekgurl:

... All Santana's die-hard fans want him to release another Welcome ...

 

You don't like "Welcome"? Yes, as a long time Santana fan I think it is one of his best, but I am not alone.

Robert,

 

I know this is kind of off the thread topic, but just wanted to answer: Yes, of course I like Welcome! I was drawing a parallel between Herbie's new, commercial-oriented release "Possibilities" with Santana's last 3 CDs (Supernatural, Shaman, All That I Am) to point how long-time fans of an artist -- or fans of an artist at a more artistically explorative rather than commercial point in time -- often don't care for the more commercial stuff. The starter of this thread said he didn't think Herbie's playing on the latest CD was anything special, and as you read in my initial post, I was responding to that. On Santana boards fans are in particular crying out for Santana to release another Welcome or Caravanserai type CD ... though some acknowledge it may not ever happen because he just may not be there as an artist any longer.

[Steve Force]

Originally posted by Steve Nathan:

There must not be as many jazzplayers here as I thought.....

What HH and BE are doing on that video is an old -at least from bop on, especially from the '60's on - jazz convention. Herbie is a master at it. Not everybody appreciates it... But a lot of us do, especially players who realize what is going on. This is something you won't hear on your smooth jazz station. That's why I said that some ought to listen harder. There is a strong atonal, "outside", convention, especially when players are trading 4's ..... try running a whole tone scale sometime - you can play it over about anything.

So if I don't like this particular performance it must be because

1. I'm not a Jazz player

2. I don't "get" it (realize what's going on)

3. I'm an unsophisticated "Smooth Jazz" fan

4. I haven't listened hard enough

 

Bullsh*t

 

I'm no smooth jazz fan and I certainly know what "playing outside" is. Herbie is, as you've said, (usually) quite good at it. Scofield (IMHO) is even better. When either is at their best, their is always an intangible thread back from wherever they've gone to the heart and soul of the song.

However, in this performance, Herbie was spitting out a laundry list of stock disconnected outside licks and phrases like he was reading them off a menu.

Like you say, it's a matter of taste. I don't like it and you do. Fine, but to borrow an old Jewish phrase, "don't piss up my back and tell me it's raining".

Steve Nathan

 

Mr.Nathan,

 

I REALLY dig your style!

 

[Steve Nathan]

Well Thank you. I like your first name.

[Steve Force]

http://foxtick.com/foxboard/images/smiles/wpthu.gif

[orangefunk]

Steve Nathan, just posted how exactly I feel at times. Best post on these forums in a long time.

[Phil W]

For those Santana fans on this forum awaiting a new \'Welcome\'

 

Enjoyed Herbie's playing on this video (but not the synth sound) - Ok, not his greatest but it worked. Don't likw Herbie's latest (or many of the 'stars' on it but support his right to make some money out of copying Santana's approach. As has been said before, Herbie has made some post-Headhunters albums of questionable taste for me -often through trying to follow current trends but he's a musician of the highest quality - just looking at the transcripts of his playing in 'The Jazz Theory Book' blows my mind - and listening to him play is one of life's great pleasures.

[David Loving]

Oh, sorry Steve; no offense intended. I wasn't aiming for your back; somebody elses! I agree that's not Herbies best, but I was really talking to the first post who sounded like he'd never heard of this kind of playing.

[bourniplus]

I watched the video one more time, and I think what bugs me the most is the sound of the keyboard itself. With a killer patch, those licks could have sounded good! We can all forgive Herbie for playing in the key of C and insisting on G flat, because he is God and he can do whatever he wants bla bla bla, but I'm not sure I dig that sound. Maybe I'm not enough a real jazz player to appreciate it... hey no offense

[Steve Nathan]

I don't know how to do this without springing this thread back to the top. Sorry. I just wanted to say that I've noticed that most folks here seem to be on a first name basis, but I am more often referred to as "Mr. Nathan". It's Steve , and it's nice to meet everyone. I know I'm a newcomer to this place, but since stumbling in I've truly enjoyed the time spent. I love good, intelligent conversation and the exchange of ideas (almost as much as music), and look forward to further contact with this community.

Thanks,

Steve

[PianoJazz1951]

...I enjoyed Hancocks performance; wish it were longer.

As far as the controller; I wish more GOOD keyboard players would use them live.

How often have I cursed a concert video when a keyboardist was working his ass off on a solo and the guitarist/bassist/drummer or audience shots were edited in, the keyboardists work ignored.

Folks-it's a visual world and all those stacks of expensive keys are a Hell of a lot less visually appealing than a guitar(ist) or a drummer performing the same tune.

Wish I'd had one when I was perfoming in the '60's & '70's-but they didn't exist...

[cnegrad]

Dancing, schmancing. I don't care if he's sitting down with his back to me as long as he's a good player. I listen with my ears, not my eyes. (Running for cover....)

[orangefunk]

I think it was terrible.. thats not because of my eyes it because of my ears.. different strokes for different folks...

[niacin]

It didn't blow me away, but it certainly wasn't "unforgivable". Did anyone think what Bill Evans played was any better? The trading thing with Bill imo didn't really work in terms of taking the shared solo anywhere. I'm not dead keen on Herbie's synth playing - give me George Duke anyday - but his outside playing on rhodes is peerless. The DX sound certainly didn't help imo. I have a DVD of the 2005 New Orleans Jazz Festival featuring the Meters and Art Neville is playing clav parts on a DX7 ep patch on a newer yamaha board. I dunno what he was smokin but that sound just blows chunks in a funk setting. I wouldn't say his playing was any different from any other day though.