Technical practice stuffs

[d.r.e.a.m.i.s.t]

There are people (Gyorgy Sandor, in his book, and Chuan C. Chang, in his website -- http://members.aol.com/chang8828/contents.htm) who advise against Hanon as technical exercises, but instead recommend Bach's inventions.

 

Then it raises a question to me: Could Bach's inventions effectively substitute Hanon as technical exercises?

[marino]

My humble opinion: No.

 

I'm a huge fan of Gyorgy Sandor's work, and the way he has rationalized the most economical and natural movements that the human body can use to play the piano.

Frankly, I don't remember anything that he has specifiacally said about not using Hanon. But anyway, I've always practiced both Bach pieces and technical exercises; I find that they complement each other, and taken together, they can give you a really solid basic technique. (For advanced/romantic technique, you need something like the Brahms exercises or the Cortot book, plus obviously studying the literature)

 

Of course, it doesn't hurt that the vast majority of Bach pieces are masterworks...

[David Loving]

Try them both. See what you think for yourself,

[d.r.e.a.m.i.s.t]

Thanks. I'll try both (when my skills are up to that level).

 

Originally posted by marino:

Frankly, I don't remember anything that he has specifiacally said about not using Hanon.

Sandor mentions Hanon in Chapter 14 (Practicing) on page 189.

[Dave Horne]

If you want to be good at Hanon, practice Hanon.

 

If you want to be good at Bach, practice Bach.

 

If you want to be good at scales, practice scales.

 

If you want to be good at boogie woogie, practice boogie woogie.

 

If you want to be good at ..... well, you get the idea.

 

Regarding Hanon, I don't practice it, but if you do, make it a point to play the excercises in every key. If you just play them in C, you'll be good at playing them in C. (Do you hear an echo here?)

[FXM]

Originally posted by Dave Horne:

Regarding Hanon, I don't practice it, but if you do, make it a point to play the excercises in every key. If you just play them in C, you'll be good at playing them in C. (Do you hear an echo here?)

I'm not an expert on this sort of thing at all, so I might be completely wrong about this. The things is I think the point of exercises 1-20 of Hanon is to improve evenness in general and particularly the 4th and 5th fingers. By playing in C, in every bar your fingers make the same movement (at least for half the exercise, as the directions switches in the middle). This is no longer true if you play in another key, as the black keys will be in varying positions. I'm sure playing Hanon in different keys is also very useful, but in C I think you gain more as you're repeatedly doing the same movement.

 

Like I said, I'm no expert in this sort of thing, though.

 

Neil

[Jazzwee]

I did one Hanon. #1. In C. That was it. I decided I'm not going to bother with Hanon and work on real stuff.

 

So am I missing something here? Am I crippled for life? (I don't do classical though).

 

The last time I checked, Hanon didn't appear to swing

 

Seriously, there is so much to learn and there's so little time. I'd rather practice a transcribed solo a million times rather than do a mechanical exercise. Am I committing a "piano crime"?

 

Isn't the purpose of Hanon to fix the 4th finger and finger independence? I'm beyond that but I always wonder because I see all the Hanon proponents.

 

I also wonder why I should bother with this HT exercise since I'm trying to get my hands to do two separate and distinct things almost all the time.

 

Be kind to me now (hands defensively placed in front of face -- prepared for attacks).

[kanker.]

Originally posted by Jazzwee:

I did one Hanon. #1. In C. That was it. I decided I'm not going to bother with Hanon and work on real stuff.

I read the first paragraph of (insert name of your personal "great American novel" here) and decided it wasn't worth my time. I'm going to go find something real to read.

 

Originally posted by Jazzwee:

So am I missing something here? Am I crippled for life? (I don't do classical though).

That's entirely possible.

 

 

Originally posted by Jazzwee:

The last time I checked, Hanon didn't appear to swing

Nor do any other notes written on a page. The swing is in the hands.

 

 

Originally posted by Jazzwee:

Seriously, there is so much to learn and there's so little time. I'd rather practice a transcribed solo a million times rather than do a mechanical exercise. Am I committing a "piano crime"?

Practicing a transcribed solo a million times is a mechanical exercise. Hannon and the like aren't things you devote your life to. Just like any other physical endeavor though, it's wise to train, to warm up, and to maintain. Hannon can be a great way to stay in touch with the facility you have in your hands, a standard that you become familiar with to the point that you can use it to gauge your hands. No one is going to do Hannon for 4 hours every day, but a 5-15 minute warm up of Hannon et al, with variations that you create to the course, can be more beneficial than playing a transcribed solo a million times. No matter what the style, these are technical courses designed by great keyboard players, and great teachers.

 

 

Originally posted by Jazzwee:

Isn't the purpose of Hanon to fix the 4th finger and finger independence? I'm beyond that but I always wonder because I see all the Hanon proponents.

That is a part of the course. You very well may be 'beyond that', but then again, if you did the exercises for a while, you may find that you aren't as 'beyond that' as you think. I'm 33, and in another couple of months I will have been playing the piano for 29 years. I still run Hannon exercises (among others) and find that my hands feel different when I get done, looser, more controlled, more powerful, and yes, more independent.

 

Originally posted by Jazzwee:

I also wonder why I should bother with this HT exercise since I'm trying to get my hands to do two separate and distinct things almost all the time.

All you're looking at is 2 separate things? Heck, I'm looking at doing 10 separate things, thus the independence that running a solid course can give you.

 

Originally posted by Jazzwee:

Be kind to me now (hands defensively placed in front of face -- prepared for attacks).

Eh, take your hands down, put em on the piano. Hannon isn't going to be for everyone, but without having some sort of solid technical course to run, I think you can do your hands a disservice. Athletes warm up and stretch, do maintenance lifting, work on their flexibility, etc... A good technical course performs this task for the musician.

 

Please note that some of this was with tongue firmly planted in cheek, but again, don't underestimate the knowledge of past masters in developing the abilities of the hands, and in protecting their health.

[Bridog6996]

In my opinion, Bach is the musical version of Hanon. Like Dave H said, if you want to be good at Hanon, play Hanon. The only problem is Hanon is not music. Bascially, I find that all the benefits of Hanon (if there are any) are built in to Bach, and then some. Spend a year studying Bach, and I'll guarantee that you'll learn more about technique than with three years of practicing Hanon, and you'll have more fun doing it.

 

Hanon was developed a long time ago, when not as much was known about the physical mechanics of playing the piano. If not performed carefully, the Hanon exercises are a fast track to hand injury. Whatever you do, don't follow Hanon's "advice" from the beginning of the book. Just reading that gives me tendonitis.

[Dave Horne]

Here's a finger buster exercise I wrote but you have to download Scorch from Sibelius to view it.

 

This exercise is to be practiced in every key. For fun I even play it on diminished 7th scales.

 

This exercise will use all your fingers. The quarter notes will only be played by your thumbs and your index fingers, the rest of the notes will be played by 3, 4 and 5. Once you spend a few minutes with this, you'll understand.

 

Here's a link to Sibelius to download Scorch link to Sib ..... and here's a link to the htm file at my web site .... link to exercise

 

You can print this out if you wish. You can also listen to this and transpose this at will once you download Scorch. If this doesn't work out, I know I'll hear back from you.

 

This is a great exercise if you need to warm up. You play this for ten minutes and the blood should be moving pretty good. Have fun!

[Dave Horne]

I didn't want to clutter the score with triplet markings or finger markings. Practice one hand at a time until you understand what's going on.

[gangsu]

Originally posted by Dave Horne:

I didn't want to clutter the score with triplet markings or finger markings. Practice one hand at a time until you understand what's going on.

Well. I went at it two-handed and got it immediately. I like it! Good one Dave. Particularly with the eighth notes played staccato. Makes my left hand feel just a little retarded.

 

Not doing it in every key, though. Sorry.

[gangsu]

...perhaps I should have mentioned that FATAR gives me a decided advantage over these exercises designed to bust your fingers.

[Garrafon]

In my opinion, there is no question that Hanon exercises have their benefits. Although I understand Dave's point (practice Hanon if you want to be able to play Hanon), I think it is a bit of an understatement. I believe that nearly ANY exercise will help you in nearly ALL your playing. Hanon WILL help you in jazz. Different types of exercises may have different purposes and goals, but I think they all help you become a better player.

 

I always feel more loose, prepared, and coordinated after running a few Hanon warm-ups. 95% of what I play is blues and rock stuff, but Hanon still helps me. Even Chuck Levell recommends Hanon in his instructional DVD. It goes to fundamentals, which I believe can ALWAYS stand improvement, regardless of your proficiency level.

[Dave Horne]

Since a lot of this comes under the general heading of warm ups, I'll pass on my approach. I try to use my time as efficiently as possible; because of that, I try and do four things at the same time when warming up ...

 

1. warm up - good for getting the blood moving (that goes without saying)

2. play something technical - good for the muscles and good for endurance

3. whatever I choose to work on, I do it in every key - good for the noodle. I might not go through all 12 keys in one sitting, but will carry it over to the next day and the day after that.

4. I try to work on something that I might actually be able to work into my improvising.

 

I'm passing this because I never really received excellent advice from any of my teachers when growing up and I've come across all of this by trial and error ... and giving it some thought as well.

[marino]

Originally posted by Jazzwee:

I did one Hanon. #1. In C. That was it. I decided I'm not going to bother with Hanon and work on real stuff.

 

(hands defensively placed in front of face -- prepared for attacks).

I have no intention to attack you, but let me make a few considerations:

 

In my opinion, if someone has the intention to take command of the piano, he/she should check Hanon. *And* Beringer. And Cortot, Brahms, Clementi, Czerny, Pishna, and all the others.

I'm *not* saying that one should know all those books, begginning to end... but taking inspiration from each to make his own exercises, comparing things, and generally check how the great pianists have put together their technique.

 

Bach is a lifetime study. There's so much music in his work, you never stop to learn from it. It's not 'technique', that's only the beginning. There are worlds of expression, poetry, symbolism, faith, math, architecture, philosophy, heights and depths, we all should respect him as someone who has expressed high levels of thought thru the musical language.

[Jazzwee]

Well I asked for it...

 

Dave Horne, I'm not talking about warmups here. I'm talking about spending hours and hours on Hanon/Czerny, for the purpose of building technique. Also, I want to emphasize that being a classical concert pianist is not my objective. I'm too old for that.

 

It's just that there is so little time and there is so much to do. I've tried to spend my time trying to accomplish multiple things at once with anything I do. So if I'm going to work on an exercise, I usually do it on something that I'm actually going to play.

 

Now scales of course is an exception to this in my mind since I need to use scales directly. I also believe in scales for practicing fingering, dynamics and tone. So this, to me has value on multiple levels and does not need to be duplicated by Hanon.

 

Of course, I'm not challenging that any chop busting exercise will be valuable to improve technical skill but I just raise a point, which I think is valid, that sometimes one has to prioritize. Hanon was one of the ones that I thought did not cross the priority line for me.

 

Isn't the goal to sound good? Now I don't aspire for Theolonius Monk technique, but isn't expressiveness on playing done in many ways including phrasing, melodies? Or does one spend so much time on technical chops that musicality does not grow so fast. Isn't my goal of attaining technical proficiency WHILE doing something musical an alternative approach?

 

Isn't focusing on musicality more than chops more satisfying for the learner? Does this satisfaction provide more motivation?

 

In the jazz tunes I learned (heck even Rock, I do that too -- I'm a reformed guitar player), I have not yet encountered much use for unison playing. Yet all these exercises, including scales are HT. Shouldn't I be focusing on exercises HS? And of course, we shoot for doing more than one thing in each hand (someday I'll shoot for 10 like Kevank). But why am I practicing HT? I'm spending so much time making sure the LH is the rhythmic guide so the RH can free itself of the shackles of time for better phrasing. Then I practice something that focuses on doing things together? I haven't gotten into Bach (like I said there's only so much time) but at least here you learn contrapuntal playing aside from all the harmony lessons.

 

I see many posts from beginners here where they say, "got to go woodshedding on my Hanon...". I'm just wondering when their friends and family show up. "Here guys, why don't you listen to me play.....'Hanon'".

 

Don't you build good technique too playing "Confirmation" or "Donna Lee"?

 

Certainly Kevank qualified it by saying he doesn't suggest 5 hours of daily Hanon practice. But do beginners understand that message?

 

All in all I think my playing has improved (to my own low standards maybe ) by focusing my time on actual tunes, but working on problems as I identify them. What I mean by this is that when I got into a problem with fingers 4 and 5 on a tune, I practiced only finger 4 and 5 for hours until I solved the problem then I move on to the next technical issue as I encounter it.

 

Anybody on my side?

 

p.s. I respect all of your opinions as we travel to the same destination on different roads.

 

Best Regards,

 

Jazzwee

[Michelle ggurl]

My humble opinion:

 

+1,000 what Dave Horne said. Spend the most time on the stuff you want to be "most good at," if you will.

 

That doesn't mean, and I'm sure Dave didn't mean to say, that there is no value in Hanon, or Cortot, or Pischna, etc.

 

I've had my go-around with Hanon and Pischna and they have value, but when I was young there was a period I found myself focusing on those exercises and on scales too much, and I stopped creating. I stopped just "playing." So, I stopped lessons with that teacher; though that wasn't his intent in teaching, that's how I ended up practicing under his tutelage so it was the only way for me to break that rut. FWIW, I played several Hanon exercises in all keys, and there definitely is value there.

 

I'm sure experiencing that time in my development did some good, but there was a disconnect between that training and practical application for me; and that probably did some bad (or, delayed my musical development in some way). Now I practice very differently. I have limited time and lots I want to learn and maintain. I'm very mindful of my priorities and shift my concentration to different areas quite often.

 

Anyway, regarding playing in unison, there is need for that if that's something *you* develop into *your* style. A lot of Latin jazz and salsa players do it ... but, working on that element for myself, I can tell you, I find no help from Hanon! (I heard a Hilton Ruiz recording recently where he was doing some off-the-hook unison stuff.) What helps me is simply practicing improvising that way. But, that's me. And more important, that's me NOW after having spent a lot of time in the past with Hanon and scales.

 

I'm no virtuoso, but I don't think I'm a beginner/intermediate either ... and I think beginning/intermediate players will only enrich their skills by exposing themselves to Hanon and the like. But at some point, you have enough perspective to just pick what works for you and what doesn't.

 

A guitar example: I know he's not the most technically amazing guitarist, but there's no question Carlos Santana has a vision and a style. And, he is technically proficient enough to improvise what's in his heart. Frankly, that's my favorite kind of player. I read one interview where he said he doesn't practice scales and if I recall, he expressed doubt that he really could get through any. A caveat here is, I think he's a very highly developed example of a feel player: and avoiding technique won't necessarily make most musicians a feel player of the same caliber; in my experience mostly it makes lazy musicians who try to hide out behind a claim to being feel players. Before you flame me, I know there are exceptions to the rule.

 

Just some thoughts. My final thought is: You have 24 hours in a day. Use them to your best advantage.

[Dave Horne]

Jazzwee,

 

Dave Horne, I'm not talking about warmups here. I'm talking about spending hours and hours on Hanon/Czerny, for the purpose of building technique. Also, I want to emphasize that being a classical concert pianist is not my objective. I'm too old for that.

I spend 50 minutes every day on warm ups, a total of 50 minutes out of three hours of practicing. Those 50 minutes are my technique, the rest of the time is whatever I want to work on. You can build technique by taking a simple pattern and playing it both hands in unison. By using different patterns, scales, chords, whatever, and by trying different ideas every day, your technique and your musicianship will grow and be more varied. You're killing several birds with one stone.

 

Isn't focusing on musicality more than chops more satisfying for the learner?

For me, at least, when I hear a performer make a mistake or simply play sloppy, I am distracted from his music. When I listen to someone play, I really just listen to their ideas - I listen to the composer. When the player makes a technical mistake, I personally find it distracting and not musically charming. Having a great deal of technique helps to put the musical ideas in a better light.

 

I really try to follow those four multitasking ideas I gave in my warm ups. Every day I try something different. After those 50 minutes of warm ups, the rest of the time is for me. You know, there are only so many hours in the day, try to make your practice time as efficient as possible so you can enjoy other areas of your life. After my three hours, I enjoy several glasses of wine. I'm having one now. Life is good.

 

As far as Monk goes, I would rather have studied composition with him than try to emulate his ... technique.

 

At any rate, I was just passing on some free advice ... and we know the value of that.

[Jazzwee]

IMHO, there is no disagreement on technical development or inclusion of some of this in daily practice. It is necessary and Dave H. -- that's what I meant about Monk. I didn't want to aim to be Thelonius Thunk.

 

It goes without saying that if technical mistakes are being made, then IMHO, more practice is necessary (of the piece in question).

 

My comment is really just on non-musical repetitive exercises like Hanon/Czerny. Just so I understand the issue more, I opened the book and did most of the first 20 Hanon exercises (which are all in the key of C BTW). I just didn't understand the global applicability of this if I'm just on white notes.

 

As Neil aaid, and I originally said this, I thought the that issue with Hanon is 4th finger strength and finger independence. Things that, IMHO, I have to deal with anyway in anything in jazz. I don't get a warmup/finger independence doing a fast bebop tune like "Donna Lee"?

 

So please do not construe these comments as having anything to do with doing technical practice of some sort. It's just the methodology I'm asking about.

 

It doesn't seem like there is much disagreement here except for those who specifically are Hanon fans. And to you Kevank and Marino, I respect your opinions. I will try a little more of it (Hanon). Maybe I will grow to like it.

 

Bridog6996 -- I would love to try Bach. However, I'm intimidated due to my very poor sight reading skills. A Real Book is an easier read

[Dave Horne]

I misread something, responded, and then deleted. Sorry.

[gangsu]

Originally posted by marino:

Bach is a lifetime study. There's so much music in his work, you never stop to learn from it. It's not 'technique', that's only the beginning. There are worlds of expression, poetry, symbolism, faith, math, architecture, philosophy, heights and depths, we all should respect him as someone who has expressed high levels of thought thru the musical language.

Beautifully said. Wow, I think you're a lifetime study, Marino.

[Mr. Nightime]

Originally posted by Jazzwee:

 

The last time I checked, Hanon didn't appear to swing

 

You must not have the Boogie Woogie Hanon (yes it exists. I have a copy).

 

It's finger exercises designed to further your boogie woogie technique. They're written in straight 8s, but the text recommends they be played in swing 8s. They also work on hand independence because you're not playing unison. They're very heavy on left hand boogie patterns. Helped me out.

 

As far as the standard Hanon goes, I have three simple pieces that I use about 10 minutes before a show just to limber up. I'm a blues/rock player with no aspirations to play classical, so I just need something to loosen up my hands and get the blood flowing.

[Jazzwee]

Originally posted by Mr. Nightime:

Originally posted by Jazzwee:

 

The last time I checked, Hanon didn't appear to swing

 

You must not have the Boogie Woogie Hanon (yes it exists. I have a copy).

 

It's finger exercises designed to further your boogie woogie technique. They're written in straight 8s, but the text recommends they be played in swing 8s. They also work on hand independence because you're not playing unison. They're very heavy on left hand boogie patterns. Helped me out.

 

As far as the standard Hanon goes, I have three simple pieces that I use about 10 minutes before a show just to limber up. I'm a blues/rock player with no aspirations to play classical, so I just need something to loosen up my hands and get the blood flowing.

Hey Mr. Nighttime. How are you? Are you serious, there's such a thing? (Boogie Woogie Hanon). That might actually be interesting. Where do you get that? I always do blues. Blues/Jazz = Brother/Sister.

 

I been a good boy today though. I did some Hanon. Felt good actually. Except now my hand hurts from doing it too fast.

 

Dave H. -- since you're getting abused at the other thread. I thought I'd be nice to you on this one.

[LoFi]

Boogie Woogie Hanon (clicky)

 

(I've got Jazz Hanon by the same publisher (not to be confused with Jazz Hanon by Peter Deneff) and it's not much cop, to be honest - it doesn't know whether it's a technical manual or an instruction book).

[musicalaccents]

You could always design your own exercises to compliment & help prepare you for the material you're working on. I've done this in the past - whether it be Chopin, Chick Corea, or Scott Joplin. I'm fortunate to be a really good sight reader so I just focus on the parts that give me trouble at the tempo indicated. Once I've pinpointed the trouble spots (i.e. difficult left hand passages, big jumps, or difficult crossover) then I focus on developing an exercize or several of them that are similar to the passage or part being played. Sometimes I'll go through my Beringer books to see if there is already one (Beringer has tons of exercises for Chopin). Once I've worked these exercises out, practiced, and am ready for the gig, then I know exactly what to practice the day before or of the gig. Obviously, memorization should kick in, if you've had enough time, but if it's an on the spot gig, then you still can be more prepared.

[Jazzwee]

Originally posted by LoFi:

Boogie Woogie Hanon (clicky)

 

(I've got Jazz Hanon by the same publisher (not to be confused with Jazz Hanon by Peter Deneff) and it's not much cop, to be honest - it doesn't know whether it's a technical manual or an instruction book).

LoFi Thanks. I did find it on Amazon. I did have that question on the jazz Hanon and you answered it. Perhaps Mr. Nightime can "Grade" that Boogie-Woogie books for us.

 

 

Originally posted by musicalaccents:

...so I just focus on the parts that give me trouble at the tempo indicated. Once I've pinpointed the trouble spots (i.e. difficult left hand passages, big jumps, or difficult crossover) then I focus on developing an exercize

That's actually what I have been doing (and I get hammered on the thread). But just so I'm not speaking off the cuff, I actually did many of the Hanon exercises for an extended period of time. It feels more intense (because of the higher reps I'm sure) on the things that you practice. It is obviously not applicable to everything as a heavy duty technical exercise IMHO, but it did limber up my fingers. I did hurt myself and there's the danger...

[Mr. Nightime]

The link to the boogie woogie Hanon is the same book that I have. As far as work with the right hand, it's not all that good. But, it will help with the left hand patterns and hand independence. If boogie, barrelhouse, western swing, or blues is your bag, it can help.

 

Blues + Jazz beget Country and Rock.

(Hank Williams was a blues man with country instrumentation)

[Jazzwee]

Mr. Nightime,

 

What's good for the right hand? I was watching this guy at GC do Boogie-Woogie and he was just smooth as heck with very smooth slides and glissandos. It would be nice to have something specific to practice to develop that. It's certainly different from jazz blues style and I'd like to be able to do both.

 

Regards,

 

Jazzwee

[Tom Fiala]

If you are at the point where you have mastered the mechanics of basic piano technique, (and I suspect that most of us here already have passed that point) then you certainly don't * need * Hanon. Warm up with a piece you enjoy, or just go straight to the piece you are currently studying.

 

Aside: There are also plenty of classical compositions, other than Bach, that are helpful for mastering certain technical issues. Chopin's etudes, for example, come to mind.

 

I agree with Dave Horne. Practice - and I mean practice with concentrated mental effort, care and diligence - not just repetition - the kind of music you want to play.