Electro vs Kurz PC2X vs Motif ES RHODES Need your guys expert advice

[Alkeys]

Hey all - long time lurker, first time poster.

 

Had a question for you guys concerning Rhodes stuff.

EP Rhodes/Wurli and Clav stuff is the sound I'm concerned with most in my rig.

 

My Rhodes sounds right now come from a Motif Rack with a controller keyboard.

 

I really like the setup. I've been eyeing the Nord Electro and The Nord Stage, what I really want is a Nord Electro if it had a mod wheel and pitch stick. The Nord Stage is too overblown, just want an electro with modwheel and pitch stick. Damn, oh well.

 

Noticing from reading, seems to be a lot of folks with a PC2X for EP and an Electro for Organ sounds.

 

Well I know a lot of you guys use the Electro and the Kurz PC2 for Rhodes sounds. I never hear anyone mention the Motif though. I think it has great rhodes sounds but was wondering if you guys have played all 3- the Motif, Kurz, and Electro.

 

What are your oppinions for EP sounds?- that's all I will use it for. I'm always after the best Rhodes sounds and I would get something else, if it was better than the Motif for EP sounds. What are your guys suggestions?

 

Disclaimer: already ruled out anything Korg or Roland because of bad sampling and when you turn the FX engine off on a Korg or Roland, it doesn't sound as good as a Yamaha with the effects engine turned off. Also, i don't want to go the whole laptop route- prefer hardware.

 

Thanks in advance everyone for any responses.

 

What are your oppinions for EP sounds?- that's all I will use it for. PC2 vs Motif vs Electro I'm always after the best Rhodes sounds and I would get something else, if it was better than the Motif for EP sounds. What are your guys suggestions?

[David Loving]

Why do you need a mod/pitch wheel for clav, rhodes or wurlitzer ?

I f you have a Kurzweil pc2, or 2x with the classic exp. board I think it's a push with the Electro2. I have a pc2 and an electro. I bought the electro because of the rhodes 1 patch. It is handy because you can change chorus, phaser, ring mod, pan, tremelo, etc on the fly - plus it's 22 lbs. If you want a pitch wheel/ mod wheel get the pc2 or 2x. If you like light weight and great sounds get the nord. I never can decide which one to use!

[Alkeys]

Cool thanks for the reply

 

I like to pitch bend occassionally with Clav- don't ask why

[Moonglow]

I have a Motif ES rack, which I bought largely for the Rhodes sounds. However, I recently installed the "Classic Keys" ROM on my K2600 and I think a similar expansion board exists for the PC-2. I almost hate to say it, but I prefer the Rhodes on the Kurzweil expansion ROM. I especially dig the first Rhodes program entitled "Model This!" If it were not for other nice sounds on the ES-R, I'd really feel like sh--. I've never done a direct A/B comparison with the Electro, but have played an Electro several times. I can say that the velocity switching seems much smoother on the Electro, in comparison to all of them, IMO. If I did not have a dedicated organ module, I probably would have went with the Electro.

[Finale]

Yep, for emulation of the dirty-type qualities of the Rhodes, the Kurz is hard to beat.

[Prague]

I have the Kurz PC-2 mainly for the vintage piano sounds, plus vintage sytnhs, mellotrons, etc. Everything else is icing.

[lowerhodes]

I have an NE2 and a Motif as well as four Rhodes (I suffer from a serious disorder). I cannot comment on the Kurzweil but in my opinion the NE2 Rhodes is pretty good for chordal work and very user friendly. For single note passages (i.e. solos) it is dreadful. I have tried dressing it up with various effects and using a weighted key controller but to no avail. Tne Motif sounds are better to my ear and sit in a live mix well. I should say that even a so-so Rhodes beats them all, though.

[ITGITC]

Originally posted by lowerhodes:

I have an NE2 and a Motif as well as four Rhodes (I suffer from a serious disorder).

 

You're my freakin' HERO.

[lowerhodes]

I got them one at a time. I just love the sound and keep looking for a better one but can never bear to sell an old one when a new one comes in. Not easy to bring in under the wife's rader, either. The worst part is that I'm primarily a guitar player. Oh well....I've got to go check the want ads for Rhodes.

[jook]

Hey... while you're shopping, go check out the PC2X with the Classic Keys expansion and let us know what you think of the Rhodes in that. Would be interesting to get an opinion from such a "Rhodesficionado", especially one that can find fault in the Electro's.

 

I for one would really like a Head-To-Head of the Rhodes and Wurlies between the Electro and the PC2X (w/ Classic Keys), which are both praised as being the best hardware EP emulations. Have some sample MP3s to compare them and all that... kinda like what the Clonewheel guys do with the B3 clones.

[Dave The Rave]

I had an Electro 73 for a while but swapped it out for a PC2X. I have never regretted that decision. The EP's in the PC2X kill the Electro's limited set of sounds IMO and having a semi-weighted keyboard helps quite a bit too. I added an ES rack to my setup later. I love the EPs in the ES - they are outstanding. AFAIC, the PC2X and ES are different enough for me to keep both. All the pianos and EP's in both are worth having around IMO.

 

:DTR

[JMcS]

Do the organs in the PC2 ® always go through the Leslie Sim or can it be turned off? The manual seems to indicate that the organs do and there isn't a bypass or off option just fast or slow. Although I have not read the whole manual.

 

I found in this thread:

http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/ubb/get_topic/f/18/t/014491.html#000003

that the Leslie Sim can be turned off.

[Moon Zero Two]

Great topic!!

 

I have a pc2x that I gig with all the time - I also have a K2600 that stays at home - I midi that to a Motif ES Rack - I absolutely love the combo of the two rhodes sounds. The classic rom rhodes of the K's are great - BUT - they are realistic to a fault I guess - there is a definite lack of cut in the upper registar - just like I remember my old Rhodes to have. The Motif has a slightly thinner sound to my ears than the K - but the whole reason I got the mo es r was cause I was so impressed with it's Rhodes sounds.

 

I do not care for the KB3 sounds - I have a CX3 and there is just no comparison IMHO.

 

Here's the kicker: I am thinking about buying a Nord Electro TODAY.

 

I have been sitting in a lot over the last two months with different bands and jams and am just sick of lugging a ton of equipment around - ok not a ton but the PC2X and case is well over 65 pounds. I did a jam session at a local bar that was two flights up and thought I would have a heart attack.

 

I tried the Electro out and was impressed by the B3 sounds - I loved the immediacy of the control of the effects - I thought the Rhodes sounded good too - but the weight is what I keep thinking of.

 

I just wish it had pitch/mod wheels and some midi functionality.

 

Does any one here midi an electro to a module?

[DanL]

I have both the Electro and an S90ES. I prefer the Electro Rhodes sounds over the ES, but they are much more playable when triggering from the ES keyboard. I use some of the ES Rhodes sounds too though, depending on the sound I'm looking for and if I need to play organ at the same time. There is no compare on the Wurlie, Electro hands down on that. We had an opener band recently and the guy used my rig, and I was amazed at how good the Wurlie sound cut and how good it sounded out front. Clavs are a push for me. I've never spent a lot of time on a real one to be able to have a good opinion. I like the clav on the Electro, especially with the auto wah, but there are a couple nice clav sounds on the ES as well. I especially like layering an ES clav with a hard Rhodes sound on the Electro.

[burningbusch]

I own or have owned all of the above.

 

The PC2x EPs are a good start but seriously wimp out in the upper octaves whgere you really need strength for soloing. There are limits as to how many octaves you can stretch the same sample and make it sound good. Talk about "poor sampling."

 

The Electro Rhodes are just lifeless to me. It's easy to make velocity switching seem transparent when there's little tonal variation between pp and ff. They lack some of the key elements I need in a Rhodes sound such as a great bark and a certain characteristic sound. The chorus FX is poor. The other FXs are fine, but in general the Nord lags way behind Yamaha, Kurz, Roland in terms of FXs. The saving grace of the Nord is a simple but powerful EQ section.

 

Of the three, IMHO, Yamaha has the best selection of useable Rhodes, They are highly playable and there's a lot of versatility. Good FX and EQ. Velocity switching is apparent on most patches but for some reason it never got iin the way of my playing.

 

Still, I'll take the Rhodes on the Roland RD700SX over any of these. Plus, assuming what I heard at NAMM stands up to the released product, the SRX-12 is going to make the RD700SX THE hardware piece for Rhodes emulation.

 

Busch.

[NYKeys]

I just bought a ES Rack and posted a demo with the rhodes, bass, and lead on myspace Click on the link in my signature to hear it.

[Alkeys]

You guys are awesome. Thanks for all your responses. I've obviously come to the right place for Rhodes lovers.

 

I went through 2 pairs of leaf springs on my truck hauling my Rhodes around 4 nights a week for 4 years. Then went with the Yamaha S80 for a year or so and then settled on a Motif Rack with a Roland A37 or A50 for a controller.

 

I too have tried the Roland RD700 but I always thought Roland's sample quality was really tinny toy-like sounding with lots of horseshoe EQ-boosted lows and highs to make up for it-or in other words- bad sounding with the FX turned off. I go for a pure sound and really admire that Clavia and Yamaha are the only makes i've found so far that they sound good with the FX turned off. Korgs and Rolands especially sound pretty horrible the the FX turned off. That's how i normally test any instrument. Luckily Clavia's don't come with fx. All i ever add is a little delay here and there anyway.

 

I've always loved the Yamaha Sound but really like the Roland Pitch Lever a lot-so that's why i settled with the Motif Rack and Roland Controller keyboard.

 

Like I said what I really need is a Nord Electro with a pitch stick and and mod wheel.

 

I hear they are making a Nord Stage 76. Should be interesting but i don't really need the synth section of the Nord Stage because I use my Nord Lead 2 for that stuff. That's why a Nord Electro with stick and wheel would probably be perfect. Oh well.

 

I listened to the Kurz PC2 classic keys expansion rom MP3s.

 

http://www.kurzweilmusicsystems.com/whats-new.html?Id=1673

 

It's really a tossup between the Motif Rack and the PC2R with classic keys rom installed. I have heard of the Kurz sounding weak in the upper registers.

 

I guess I'll forget about the electro because I kinda like being able to go in and tweak/edit everything on a rack.

 

My current Setup:

Roland A37 or A50 controller

Motif Rack

Nord Lead 2

TC Electronic D-Two

Rack mount mixer

2 Yorkville E160P's for stereo setup.

 

My old setup:

Yamaha S80

Minimoog Voyager

2 Barbetta Sona 41s

 

On a side note: I actually found that the Nord Lead 2 was way more fun to play, more expressive and easier to carry around, more ergonomic, just overall way better for me than my Voyager so I sold the Voyager.

 

I've always needed

1 synth for leads

1 keyboard for Rhodes/Clav/CP80/Wurli type sounds

 

I play reggae/blues/jazz fusion

 

Thanks to all you cool folks for the responses.

You guys rule.

peace

[Alkeys]

Hey RonL and DanL.

 

I have spent quite a bit of time on a real Hohner Clav D6 and E7

 

and to be honest, all synths lack that mechanical string resonance that a real Clav has. I can't explain it other than a very faint vibration that lets you know that the instrument you are playing is "alive".

 

A real D6 or E7 is probably the most fun keyboard I've ever played. The key action is so light and the throw of the keys is so shallow, you can REALLY fly around on a Clav. Waterfall keys, but lighter than a B3 with a really nice subtle vibration that comes up through your fingers when the key is bottomed out. The keybed on the electro is really more of an organ type keyboard.

 

Favorite keyboard actions:

1) Clav

2) Wurlitzer EP

3) Rhodes definitely being last- i've owned 2 and 1/2 - 2 good ones and 1 used for parts.

 

Before you go out there and buy an Electro-

 

3 things that are bad to me

 

1) wallwart

2) no pitch, mod, no Midi controller features

3) no key release samples on the Clavs

 

One thing that your Motif has that the Electro doesn't is key release samples on the Clav and i find this REALLY is beneficial to have and I sorely miss it on the Electro.

 

You know the more i think about it, keyboard feel is so important.

 

I just remember the first time I laid my hands on a real Clav D6 and E7, I thought I'd died and gone to heaven. And when i bought a wurli once, I remembered how well i loved that feel as opposed to a real Rhodes.

 

It seems to me like Wurli is the hardest to sample/capture on a synth.

 

Granted no emulation is exactly perfect but at least when i play a rhodes sound on my yamaha or hear it it on an electro, i at least think of Rhodes. When I play a Wurli patch on my Yamaha or any other synth, it just always sounds,plain bad.

 

From what i remember about the PC2 is it had a pretty good Wurlitzer sound and i think even on the front it said Wurlitzer TM in tiny letters somewhere or something LOL.

 

Anyway, lunchtime blabbering now.

Thanks all

[burningbusch]

Attached find my goofing around with the standard Rhodes on the RD700SX. NO FXs other than a little reverb. NO EQ.

 

HERE

 

Tiny? Bad sampling? Like I said, the new SRX-12 looks to be even better. The only hardware Rhode(s) where each note is sampled.

 

BTW: I've owned at least a dozen Rhodes, I currently have three.

 

Busch.

[DanL]

Allkeys- thanks for the clav info. I guess when you haven't really sat down with a real one you don't miss some of the things that you mentioned.

 

One note- no wall wart on the Electro, it's got a regular power cord.

[burningbusch]

Originally posted by Moonglow:

I have a Motif ES rack, which I bought largely for the Rhodes sounds. However, I recently installed the "Classic Keys" ROM on my K2600 and I think a similar expansion board exists for the PC-2. I almost hate to say it, but I prefer the Rhodes on the Kurzweil expansion ROM. I especially dig the first Rhodes program entitled "Model This!" If it were not for other nice sounds on the ES-R, I'd really feel like sh--. I've never done a direct A/B comparison with the Electro, but have played an Electro several times. I can say that the velocity switching seems much smoother on the Electro, in comparison to all of them, IMO. If I did not have a dedicated organ module, I probably would have went with the Electro.

I am quite certain that the Vintage expansion for the 2600/2500 DOES include new Rhodes samples. I was impressed with that board. I also believe that the Vintage expansion for the PC2x series DOES NOT contain new Rhodes samples, only patches and the Rhodes still suffer in the upper octaves.

 

Busch.

[Alkeys]

Hey Dan- oh cool no wall wart nice-

my mistake

 

Busch- you are right- that new SRX expansion sounded pretty cool.

 

The only thing i was saying and this is really my humble opinion, was that when i tried the XV5050 in the store and the RD700SX in the store with headphones, I noticed some sample pops- especially noticed them in the Phaser Rhodes sounds, and then also notice that the Roland Clavs sound a little less organic than Yamahas.

Also, i've heard Roland uses something like 12 or 14 bit compandit sample data. When I listen to a Roland it sounds fuzzy or tinny or aliased to me. It sounds like the sample rate has been reduced- kind of lo-fi and not in a good way. Like they lowered the sample/bit rate to cram all those samples in ROM. I never notice any "sample rate reduction" sound in Yamaha.

 

Next time you are in a Guitar center, throw on a pair of headphones and play a few notes and let them ring out and listen to artifacts. Pay attention to the decay. Don't play chords, but single notes and listen to the sound that surrounds the core frequency of the notes. It was like night and day- like someone took the pillows away or something. The yamaha will sound although bright also warm and full and the Roland will sound effects and reverb drenched and with sample rate reduction artifacts ie:fuzzy/tinny toy/canned like sound.

Thats all i'm saying i've noticed. Reminded me of when you go to a toy store and listen to all those weird toys with funny sounds like elmo and so forth. I like Rolands old stuff- D50/A50/U20 etc..but their new stuff yech...

 

Ya know what WAS cool though? was the very first version of the Fantom. Not the Famtom X or S or anything , but the very first Fantom.

 

just my oppinion

[burningbusch]

Originally posted by lowerhodes:

I have an NE2 and a Motif as well as four Rhodes (I suffer from a serious disorder). I cannot comment on the Kurzweil but in my opinion the NE2 Rhodes is pretty good for chordal work and very user friendly. For single note passages (i.e. solos) it is dreadful. I have tried dressing it up with various effects and using a weighted key controller but to no avail. Tne Motif sounds are better to my ear and sit in a live mix well. I should say that even a so-so Rhodes beats them all, though.

I couldn't agree more. I think the Nord Rhodes are over rated.

 

Busch.

[DanL]

It's all subjective I guess. I enjoy the heck out of my Electro. I like how that Roland rhodes sounds on your demo Busch, very nice. I think we all need to remember that the Electro is going on 5 years old now- there are bound to be boards out there that sound better. Even when you look at it that way, for the small package and sheer organic sound, it's still a top board.

[burningbusch]

Originally posted by Alkeys:

Hey Dan- oh cool no wall wart nice-

my mistake

 

Busch- you are right- that new SRX expansion sounded pretty cool.

 

The only thing i was saying and this is really my humble opinion, was that when i tried the XV5050 in the store and the RD700SX in the store with headphones, I noticed some sample pops- especially noticed them in the Phaser Rhodes sounds, and then also notice that the Roland Clavs sound a little less organic than Yamahas.

Also, i've heard Roland uses something like 12 or 14 bit compandit sample data. When I listen to a Roland it sounds fuzzy or tinny or aliased to me. It sounds like the sample rate has been reduced- kind of lo-fi and not in a good way. Like they lowered the sample/bit rate to cram all those samples in ROM. I never notice any "sample rate reduction" sound in Yamaha.

 

Next time you are in a Guitar center, throw on a pair of headphones and play a few notes and let them ring out and listen to artifacts. Pay attention to the decay. Don't play chords, but single notes and listen to the sound that surrounds the core frequency of the notes. It was like night and day- like someone took the pillows away or something. The yamaha will sound although bright also warm and full and the Roland will sound effects and reverb drenched and with sample rate reduction artifacts ie:fuzzy/tinny toy/canned like sound.

Thats all i'm saying i've noticed. Reminded me of when you go to a toy store and listen to all those weird toys with funny sounds like elmo and so forth. I like Rolands old stuff- D50/A50/U20 etc..but their new stuff yech...

 

Ya know what WAS cool though? was the very first version of the Fantom. Not the Famtom X or S or anything , but the very first Fantom.

 

just my oppinion

I don't need to listen to them at Guitar Center.

 

As it relates to this thread, I own or have owned (recently):

 

Yamaha S90

Yamaha Motif Rack

Yamaha Motif ES8

Roland RD700

Roland RD700SX

Roland Fantom XR

Roland Fantom X7

Kurzweil PC2R (w/expansion)

Nord Electro 61

 

Plus almost all the Roland SRX boards and most of the Yamaha PLGs. I run them through high end Sennheiser phones, ADAM near-fields and/or JBL SRX series mains.

 

All these hardware synths/stage pianos compress their sounds and all compromise the sound significantly in order to fit them into the limited amount of ROM. Additionally, I don't make final judgements on instruments based on presets (e.g. I never use the Phaser Rhodes-it's based on a different sample set). I always dig deep into the synth to find the best sounds it can produce.

 

My opinion regarding the SRX-12 is based on playing it for about 45 minutes at NAMM, not the crappy online demo.

 

Look, I really don't care if no one else on the planet plays the Roland. In fact I like being in the minority. I just know that for ME, with the RD700SX + SRX-12 I will have the best compromise of EPs, AP, B3, clavs and miscellaneous other tones in a single keyboard.

 

Busch.

[keyoctave]

Originally posted by Alkeys:

It's really a tossup between the Motif Rack and the PC2R with classic keys rom installed. I have heard of the Kurz sounding weak in the upper registers.

 

I agree that the Kurzweil E pianos in the Internal sound banks are weak in the upper end. However, the ones that come with the Classic Keys expansion rom are not. Even if they don't contain new samples, Kurz did something to make them sound better.

 

If you get a chance, set the Internal sound to #18 'That 70's E Pno' and the Exp 2 (classic keys expansion card) to #18 'Studio Rhds'. Press the sound source buttons (Internal & Exp 2) to switch between the two sounds. There is a world of difference between the two in the upper end. The Internal has the weak almost tinny upper end that is in most of the Rhodes sounds in that bank. The Classic Keys has a much fuller more satisfying (IMHO) sound to it's upper end.

[Jazz+]

Hey Busch, thanks for the demo!

And I agree completely with your comments.

 

I want to point out to Alkeys that Busch was playing the basic Rhodes in the RD-700SX without effects, NOT the yet to be released Roland SRX Expansion for Rhodes.

 

The vintage "Suitcase" Rhodes is the ONLY sound I play other than piano. And I have owned several Rhodes suitcase pianos sind the 70's.

 

I have never been a fan of the Electro Rhodes sound, I agree with those who say it sounds lifeless, especialy for single note soloing. In headphones I find it odd...I hear some sort of "wonk" artifact but I don't notice it live.

 

I had a Kurzweil PC2X for a year and for soloing those high notes were so squeaky and thin that I sold it. Also it wasn't very dynamic partly due to the Fatar action or the software/sensors.

 

As I have said before, I like the Yamaha "Vintage '74" Rhodes (Auto-Pan off). It's dynamic and has a tonal musical character that I like even if it is not 100% authentic sounding.

 

I also like the Roland RD and FP series Suitcase Rhodes, very playable and vintage sounding. Bush's demo clearly proves that the stock Roland RD Rhodes is a very good imitation.

 

I think what I would like the best, based on the demos, reviews and specs, is the Scarbee Rhodes loaded on a Muse Receptor.

 

Otherwise, it's got to be either Roland or Yamaha Rhodes for me.

[vihreamies]

hey!

 

this is far away from the topic, but how the expansion board is installed to the kurz pc series?

 

I have me-1 opened right now and was just wondering, silly me...!

 

well, wanted to say that my interest rised for the classic keys expansion board sounds

[Alkeys]

Cool thanks all.

 

Busch thanks for the RD700 clip. that thing does sound nice. I'm curiuous that you used to be a Yamaha S80/90 guy and now are a Roland guy.

Do you like the RD700 sound better than the S90?

 

Keyoctave- thanks for the info about the classic keys expansion rom. I wish i could check that thing out somewhere- seems a lot of music stores avoid carrying Kurzweil like the plague because of reliability and lousy customer support- that's what i've been hearing for years anyway.

 

I always liked racks the most and it's always been me comparing these 3:

 

Motif Rack, PC2R Rack w/classic keys rom

and Fantom XR Rack.

 

I think Roland and Korg Marketing sucks pretty hard. From wallwarts to reusing brand names like Juno in their cheezy modern keyboard to goofy gimmicks, why i normally shy away from Roland is all their goofy D-Beam/V-Link/Groove/Touch Screen display etc... It's about as cheezy as Korg's Extreme with the goofy tube thing on the the Korg Extreme-what a joke- if its not Class A tube, who cares LOL BUT that being said, aside from the Nord pitch stick, i think the Roland pitch lever is cool and if i need modulation- i use a footpedal anyway.

 

I always liked the RD700- i admired it at least because it doesn't have the lame-groove vibe- but actually looks like an instrument, but I really only need 76 keys, not 88, plus the RD700 is heavy in a hard case and big.

 

I like having the sounds i need in a small package for gigging so something like the RD700 is out for me- too big of a footprint.

 

A lot of people have great rigs but gigging with those rigs is another thing/a pain in the ass.

Having all this crap in a studio is great but going somewhere with it is a different story.

Even gigging with my Voyager was lame cause in a hard case a Voyager weighs as much as a weighted keyboard. A muse receptor with Scarbee would be cool, but i don't trust the Muse, plus don't dig accessing/editing sounds from a computer to alter something in receptor. Too complicated.

The problem with the keyboard world and it's evident if you've read keyboard magazine in the last 20 years, is it's gone from being a player and a musician to being a friggin IT guy.

I don't wanna be an IT guy to play music, which is why harddrives, laptops, clicking around on a mouse etc... is out for me. I will only use dedicated hardware that has nothing to do with a computer. Just my 2 cents.

 

Thanks everyone for your informative responses.

[Alkeys]

The Fantom XR, which is as close as I could get probably to the RD700 in a rack, seems to be not as good as the Motif Rack for Rhodes sounds.

 

Busch can you tell me- are the Roland samples bigger or something?

 

Why did you switch from Yamaha to Roland? Not criticizing you, just trying to understand, but just from a players standpoint- trying to understand, because maybe you will influence my decision if I decide to switch. I'm all ears.

thank you.