Spaceboy92 Posted January 18, 2006 Share Posted January 18, 2006 So my drummer and I were talking last night about the specific definition of the "downbeat". We couldn't seem to agree, nor did we feel like looking up the answer to this: Is the downbeat always the first beat of a measure? or is it the beat with most emphasis, so to speak? in most western music, it is usually the one (in 4/4 music anyways), but in reggae music for example, in a 4/4 time sig. the heaviest beat is often on the four. Would that be considered a "downbeat"? Thanks for any input. It's possible that this is a really stupid question... "wherever you go, there you are" "If practice makes perfect, and nobody's perfect, then why bother practicing??" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bridog6996 Posted January 18, 2006 Share Posted January 18, 2006 Most often, the first beat of a measure is referred to as the downbeat, although technically the term refers to any "strong" beat. In reggae, the strong beats are still 1 and 3, even though the guitar or keyboard player might be emphasizing offbeats. Put on some Marley and listen to the bass and drums. It's heavy on the one. My YouTube Channel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Davis Posted January 18, 2006 Share Posted January 18, 2006 The downbeat is the start time for the gig! Also known as the hit. (What time's the hit?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrafon Posted January 18, 2006 Share Posted January 18, 2006 Downbeat - "The first beat of a measure." Random House Dict. of the Engl. Language (1979) From Mirriam Webster: Main Entry: 1down·beat Pronunciation: 'daun-"bEt Function: noun 1 : the downward stroke of a conductor indicating the principally accented note of a measure of music; also : the first beat of a measure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ITGITC Posted January 18, 2006 Share Posted January 18, 2006 http://www.bostonnightclubnews.com/bostonjazzclubs/downbeatmagazinesinatracover1954.jpg "Music expresses that which cannot be put into words and that which cannot remain silent." - Victor Hugo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spaceboy92 Posted January 18, 2006 Author Share Posted January 18, 2006 I've noticed in a lot of reggae (roots and dub reggae, mostly) the kick drum acts almost as a snare, hitting on 2 and 4, sometimes only 4. it's cool, cus it's sort of like "backwards" drumming. Hi hats on the 1 and 3 (and more) and some snare work (stick clicks on the rim and sparse fills). Our band plays 75% reggae (roots and dub) and this is the case for a lot of our stuff anyways... We also throw in some rawk too (think Sublime... but with other stuff) there is a band out of Rochester NY called Giant Panda Guerilla Dub Squad (www.giantpandadub.com) that does some of the best roots reggae i've ever heard. Also check out Dub Trio, a sick Dub/rock band from NYC. Or check out my band web page - it's somewhere in between sublime, bob marley, phish, rage against the machine, rancid, etc. "wherever you go, there you are" "If practice makes perfect, and nobody's perfect, then why bother practicing??" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guestuserguestuser.com Posted January 18, 2006 Share Posted January 18, 2006 In my experience, downbeat has always been the first beat of a measure, regardless of the style and feel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimmyJimJim Posted January 18, 2006 Share Posted January 18, 2006 Lots of dub and reggae is more about the drums accenting the 3 rather than the one, which is what i find 'backwards'... the offbeat skank contrasts with the drums. So Spaceboy, what are some examples i would've heard of the drums accenting the same offbeat (2+4) as the gats/keys? I find that strange but maybe haven't been listening right... Oh and hey, out of curiousity i don't suppose you know any dub bands from my country? The scene is huge here, but most aren't exactly international... Examples: Fat Freddy's Drop, Salmonella Dub, Trinity Roots, The Black Seeds, Rhombus... Where are the Snowdens of yesteryear? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spaceboy92 Posted January 18, 2006 Author Share Posted January 18, 2006 I've not heard of those guys... I think maybe I'm think of things in half time. I'm listening to Giant Panda Dub right now, and I can count it so that the kick falls on the 3, or cut it in hald and it's the 2 and 4. "wherever you go, there you are" "If practice makes perfect, and nobody's perfect, then why bother practicing??" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spaceboy92 Posted January 18, 2006 Author Share Posted January 18, 2006 thanks for the input and definition of the downbeat, by the way! "wherever you go, there you are" "If practice makes perfect, and nobody's perfect, then why bother practicing??" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Byrdman Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 Originally posted by garrafon: Downbeat - "The first beat of a measure." Random House Dict. of the Engl. Language (1979) From Mirriam Webster: Main Entry: 1down·beat Pronunciation: 'daun-"bEt Function: noun 1 : the downward stroke of a conductor indicating the principally accented note of a measure of music; also : the first beat of a measure That's nonsense - the conductor's arm comes up on beat 1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Davis Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 Hi Byrdman -- I think that the conductor's arm usually comes up on the pickup to the first beat (the breath intake as it were) and down on beat one itself. Although you might be referring to something else and I'm just not following you. Always a possibility! Scroll down this page for some diagrams: http://www.lds.org/cm/display/0,17631,4770-1,00.html#4 peace, Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Nightime Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 I always thought the conductor's arm went up on beat 4 in 4:4, then came down for beat 1. "In the beginning, Adam had the blues, 'cause he was lonesome. So God helped him and created woman. Now everybody's got the blues." Willie Dixon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Davis Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 Mr Nightime, that's what I meant -- you said it more clearly... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bridog6996 Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 Yeah, it's down on one, left on two, right on three, and up on four. Basically, you make a big + sign every four beats. My YouTube Channel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RABid Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 Back beat is the one that throws me a little. On most songs I consider the back beat to be 2 and 4, when the snare hits. On songs like Rocky Top (ugggg) I consider it to be on the "and" of each beat, again when the snare hits. Is this correct? Robert This post edited for speling. My Sweetwater Gear Exchange Page Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Davis Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 Yes, but it's a moot point, since people who like "Rocky Top" will clap on 1 & 3 no matter what you do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ITGITC Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 Originally posted by Mike Davis: Yes, but it's a moot point, since people who like "Rocky Top" will clap on 1 & 3 no matter what you do. So true. I played at Carowinds theme park in Charlotte for two seasons. This is one of the tunes we played at "Harmony Hall". Our shows were packed because it was usually blazing hot outside and we were air-conditioned. Rocky Top. Lord, help me forget Rocky Top. Mighty hard to forget since we played five shows a day, six days a week for the season. Whew. "Music expresses that which cannot be put into words and that which cannot remain silent." - Victor Hugo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guestuserguestuser.com Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 Originally posted by Byrdman: That's nonsense - the conductor's arm comes up on beat 1. As others have pointed out, conducter's arm comes down on beat 1. BUT, you do have a point. When I watch symphony orchestras, it always appears to me that the conductor's arms are about a beat behind what I'm hearing. That's just the way orchestras and orchestra conductors work. The orchestra plays behind the conductor's beat. The conductor is actually waving in 4/4 (or whatever), but approx. 1 beat ahead - this always drives me kind of nuts. I don't know how either of them, conductor or musician, can put up with that, but I suppose you get used to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ITGITC Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 Originally posted by Floyd Tatum: I don't know how either of them, conductor or musician, can put up with that, but I suppose you get used to it. Latency. Sheeeeesh. "Music expresses that which cannot be put into words and that which cannot remain silent." - Victor Hugo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Davis Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Nightime Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 I read somewhere that there was a conductor that constantly complained that the orchestra was a half beat behind his baton. This was until they discovered that he considered the downbeat to be where his baton passed his belt buckle, not where he finished. I watched a Ray Charles DVD recently, and noticed that the conductor watched Ray to find where the band should be. Ray set the tempo with his feet, and that's where he wanted the band to play, so the conductor keyed off that. "In the beginning, Adam had the blues, 'cause he was lonesome. So God helped him and created woman. Now everybody's got the blues." Willie Dixon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bridog6996 Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 Originally posted by Mr. Nightime: I watched a Ray Charles DVD recently, and noticed that the conductor watched Ray to find where the band should be. Ray set the tempo with his feet, and that's where he wanted the band to play, so the conductor keyed off that. I would hope that's the case, because if the conductor was expecting Ray to watch HIM, then there would be problems. My YouTube Channel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Pierce Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 Around here guys often use the word "downbeat" to mean, "when the show starts". BANDLEADER: "Don't forget -- load-in a 7, downbeat at 9 sharp". --Dave Make my funk the P-funk. I wants to get funked up. My Funk/Jam originals project: http://www.thefunkery.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Byrdman Posted January 20, 2006 Share Posted January 20, 2006 Originally posted by Floyd Tatum: Originally posted by Byrdman: That's nonsense - the conductor's arm comes up on beat 1. As others have pointed out, conducter's arm comes down on beat 1. BUT, you do have a point. When I watch symphony orchestras, it always appears to me that the conductor's arms are about a beat behind what I'm hearing. Yes - up is the correct way. Certainly you see people conducting upside down, but its not the way its taught in the conservatory. I was surprized (at age 15) the first time I played under a real conductor and learnt this - my high school band leader had always conducted upside down. Putting the beat at the top has two advantages. Gravity is working for you so you can be more precise. At the bottom you have to work against gravity to stop your action so its fuzzy and/or tiring. Its easier for the orchestra to see the top of your motion than the bottom. Even if you keep your hands above your music stand, they may not be visible over a players music stand, or the first violins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bridog6996 Posted January 20, 2006 Share Posted January 20, 2006 If we're talking about orchestral conducting, then yes, beat one is usually on the upstroke, but conductors vary. I worked with a conductor last year who did the opposite (1 on the downstroke), and this guy was no amateur. He's worked with some of the country's best orchestras. I've seen some other conductors use the same method in various situations. But the majority probably do it the other way (1 on upstroke) for the reasons you stated. I never studied conducting in school, so I just go by what I see. My YouTube Channel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Davis Posted January 20, 2006 Share Posted January 20, 2006 Hi Byrdman -- Well, this is why my initial response left some wiggle room for new information -- I sit corrected! How would the rest of the pattern look if you started at the top? Thanks, Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guestuserguestuser.com Posted January 20, 2006 Share Posted January 20, 2006 Originally posted by Byrdman: Yes - up is the correct way. Certainly you see people conducting upside down, but its not the way its taught in the conservatory. I was surprized (at age 15) the first time I played under a real conductor and learnt this - my high school band leader had always conducted upside down. Putting the beat at the top has two advantages. Gravity is working for you so you can be more precise. At the bottom you have to work against gravity to stop your action so its fuzzy and/or tiring. Its easier for the orchestra to see the top of your motion than the bottom. Even if you keep your hands above your music stand, they may not be visible over a players music stand, or the first violins. Byrdman, everything I've ever learned or read about conducting says downbeat is on the downstroke. I'm willing to be wrong on this - what are your sources? From what I know, the *apparent* delay is caused by the fact that orchestras don't play the conductor's time exactly, the way a pop or jazz band would, they play "behind the beat". When watching an orchestra, this could make it look like the upstroke is the downbeat, but that is not the case, as far as I know. Please, if I'm wrong about this, show me some sources. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guestuserguestuser.com Posted January 20, 2006 Share Posted January 20, 2006 oops, dblpost Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cnegrad Posted January 20, 2006 Share Posted January 20, 2006 At Berklee (admittedly a non-orchestral school), we were always taught to conduct with the downbeat being on the bottom of the pattern. This thread really surprises me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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