Analyze this chord's function in "Wave" (theory thread)

[Jazz+]

These are the chord changes for the first four measure of Tom Jobim's "Wave." Can you explain the theoretical function of the Bb diminished chord in the second measure.

 

|: D Maj7 | Bb dim | A-7 | D7 |

| G Maj7 | G-7 | F#7 | B7 |

| B-7 E7 | Bb7 A7 | D-7 G7 | D-7 G7 :

[guestuserguestuser.com]

Yes. Can you?

 

It's a V7b9 chord, in my opinion

[cnegrad]

Originally posted by Floyd Tatum:

Yes. Can you?

 

It's a V7b9 chord, in my opinion

Yes; with the flat 9 in the bass. Aurally, that's how it functions.

[DafDuc]

But it leads you to the Vm7 he way a V7 never could.

 

Love this tune, haven't thought of it in years. Thanks for the memories!!!!

[Michelle ggurl]

Originally posted by cnegrad:

Originally posted by Floyd Tatum:

Yes. Can you?

 

It's a V7b9 chord, in my opinion

Yes; with the flat 9 in the bass. Aurally, that's how it functions.

I agree, that's what I see/hear.

[Analogaddict]

I agree too! Great stuff those Jobim tunes..!

[D_dup3]

Not familiar with the recording, so I won't attempt to analyze from just a progression. Frankly, I'm often at a loss without a notion of melody & other parts.

There seems to be an emphasis on the fact that the 9th is in the bass, which leads me to a tangential thought.

Is it there as part of a linear bass line or does it just pop up there?

 

One aspect this brings up is the interaction of different lines & whether a given progression is the result of particular lines or an overall harmonic design that the lines flesh out.

 

Which is this?

 

I know issues like this don't really affect the purely functional aspect of harmony but to me they're more interesting consideraions of how a composer, or interpreter, approaches things.

[stoo schultz]

I think this is a good question because it shows how good a composer Jobim is.

 

Why a particular chord works is really four questions: why it sounds good after the chord before it, why it sounds good before the chord that comes next, why it sounds good underneath the melody line, and why it sounds good under the song lyrics or concept.

 

So to answer those questions for the Bbo: why does it sound good after the Dmaj7? The quick answer is, it doesn't. At least it doesn't sound as "natural" as say A7 or several other diatonic choices. So there's nothing about coming from Dmaj7 that makes the Bbo sound particularly good or inevitable. However, if you wanted to have a diminished chord here, the Bb family is more "natural" than the others because three out of its four notes are within the D major scale (more below).

 

Why does it sound good before A-7? For the obvious reason: it slides chromatically down to A-7 from the C# and Bb.

 

Why does it sound good under the melody line? The melody line is an arpeggio on the Bbo chord, so obviously it fits the melody perfectly. That just shifts the question to the melody though.

 

Why does it sound good under the lyrics or purpose of the song? I think this is the whole reason for the chord's existence in this case. The point of the song is to create the musical feeling of a wave on the beach. A diminished chord, with the melody rising up the notes on the chord, creates the feeling of an upwelling wave. Diminished works nicely because it's always on the verge of resolving, just like a wave is on the verge of falling. Diminished chords have a sort of "free falling" quality to them. So the point of the chord is that it's the same as the melody, and the point of the melody is to create the feeling of a rising wave. So I wouldn't consider the chord a substitute for A7. It's truly, purposefully diminished.

 

So the Dmaj7 with the A in the melody is a nice placid surface. The Bbo and associated melody line then introduce the upwelling wave. The only question is: why the Bbo rather than another diminished chord? One answer is that the melody line wanted to stay within the D maj scale at first, to avoid a sudden transition. Of the three diminished chords, the Bbo is the most within the Dmaj scale. Another possible answer is that it's a little more exotic sounding than the standard I I#o ii V progression.

 

I think it's a nice example of Jobim combining all the elements of a tune in a way that work perfectly very nicely, visually and aurally.

 

[This post is recycled from a post of mine last summer in another forum. Somebody asked this idential question; seems to be a common one.]

[Dave Horne]

When I first hear that Bb dim 7 in bar two, instead of thinking of the chord functioning as a V7 (which it does), I think Em7-5/Bb and assume we will travel to D minor instead of D major. Of course, we don't go there ... and it takes quite a while before we actually land back at D minor ... a few detours.

 

Believe it or not, I just added that tune (along with The Girl From Ipanema) to my own personal fake books and also gave those chords some thought.

 

(I only quite recently realized that I had been playing the rhythms in measure five incorrectly. It does pay to go back and look closely at the original sheet music. No one corrected me in all those years when I played the melody incorrectly; I wish they would have.)

[Dave Horne]

But it leads you to the Vm7 he way a V7 never could.

I would look at that Am7 as a ii7 of IV or G major. You label it as a Vm7 but it functions as a ii7 of IV (Am7 D7 going to G). (Sorry, do not mean to be pedantic ... the long discussion of labeling a slice of time over function which would look at a larger slice of time.)

[Byrdman]

Originally posted by Jazz+:

These are the chord changes for the first four measure of Tom Jobim's "Wave." Can you explain the theoretical function of the Bb diminished chord in the second measure.

 

|: D Maj7 | Bb dim | A-7 | D7 |

| G Maj7 | G-7 | F#7 | B7 |

| B-7 E7 | Bb7 A7 | D-7 G7 | D-7 G7 :

Diminished chords don't really belong to any one key and when the piece is moving through regions like this the harmonic analysis is going to be ambiguous.

 

Forget for a moment about harmony and look at some of the nice things that are going on horizontally here.

 

The bass line moves as IV (tritone sub of V) I. That's a strong sequence. But the I turns out to be i. The retention of the C# in the Bbdim chord strengthens the effect of flattening the third of A. The E and the G do not move so strengthening the sound of the root and third moving together.

[niacin]

What is its function? Whatever the bass player defines it as.

I also hear it functioning as a V7b9 to the Am. The D doesn't point to it, but its juxtaposition gives the song a nice harmonic lift. Playing an E in the bass makes it too bold.

[Dan South]

These are the chord changes for the first four measure of Tom Jobim's "Wave." Can you explain the theoretical function of the Bb diminished chord in the second measure.

 

|: D Maj7 | Bb dim | A-7 | D7 |

The function is clear if you think of it as a substitute for E7. Consider...

 

Dmaj7 | E7 | Am7 | D7

 

Nothing surprising there, right?

 

Let's alter the E7 to E7b5b9

 

Dmaj7 | E7b5b9 | Am7 | D7

 

E7b5b9 comprises the notes (E, G#, B, D, F). Drop the E and put B in the bass, and you have Bdim7 (B, D, F, G#). Drop the G# and you have Bdim (B, D, F).

 

Result of E7 substitution:

 

Dmaj7 | Bdim | Am7 | D7

[Dave Horne]

However we look at that Bb dim 7th chord, that Bb signals, at least to me, the possibility that we will move to D minor ... and we do.

 

Another nice feature of the harmonies, especially for the bass player, is the root movement by fifth for more than a few measures - A, D, G, C, F#, B, E, A, D. (There's a Bb7 somewhere in there that I'm overlooking to push through the root movement by fifth idea, sorry. I'm looking at my lead sheet which may use slightly different chords than the original.)

 

Is there a collection of Jobim tunes performed by Jobim in one big collection?

[Dave Horne]

Jazz+, what do you think about the changes in Summer Samba? F ... .... B dim 7 (or Bø7) ... E7 ... Bb ...

 

(Walter Wanderly made a recording of this tune. What ever happened to him?)

[kad]

This is a very common chord movement that dates back to popular music of the early 20th century. A more common variation is the progression I -> i dim 7 -> ii min7 -> V7 etc. Think of the intro to "Daddy's Little Girl" by the Mills Brothers...

 

It's difficult to think of the Bb dim7 as an incomplete V7b9 of A min7 - this would imply B dim7 rather than Bb dim7. The reason it works so well is because of its smooth resolution to the min 7th a half step below. The upper two notes (E, G) are common tones and the lower two notes (Bb, Db) are tendency tones with a strong inclination to resolve chromatically downward to A and C.

 

It's just one of those movements that work very well but are difficult to analyze in a traditional tonal framework.

 

Kirk

[guestuserguestuser.com]

Originally posted by kad:

It's difficult to think of the Bb dim7 as an incomplete V7b9 of A min7 - this would imply B dim7 rather than Bb dim7.

I view it as functioning like a V7b9 of D, not Am

[guestuserguestuser.com]

Originally posted by Dan South:

These are the chord changes for the first four measure of Tom Jobim's "Wave." Can you explain the theoretical function of the Bb diminished chord in the second measure.

 

|: D Maj7 | Bb dim | A-7 | D7 |

The function is clear if you think of it as a substitute for E7. Consider...

 

Dmaj7 | E7 | Am7 | D7

 

Nothing surprising there, right?

 

Let's alter the E7 to E7b5b9

 

Dmaj7 | E7b5b9 | Am7 | D7

 

E7b5b9 comprises the notes (E, G#, B, D, F). Drop the E and put B in the bass, and you have Bdim7 (B, D, F, G#). Drop the G# and you have Bdim (B, D, F).

 

Result of E7 substitution:

 

Dmaj7 | Bdim | Am7 | D7

The only problem with that explanation is that you end up with a Bdim instead of a Bbdim

[guestuserguestuser.com]

Originally posted by stoo schultz:

I think this is a good question because it shows how good a composer Jobim is.

 

Why a particular chord works is really four questions: why it sounds good after the chord before it, why it sounds good before the chord that comes next, why it sounds good underneath the melody line, and why it sounds good under the song lyrics or concept.

 

So to answer those questions for the Bbo: why does it sound good after the Dmaj7? The quick answer is, it doesn't. At least it doesn't sound as "natural" as say A7 or several other diatonic choices. So there's nothing about coming from Dmaj7 that makes the Bbo sound particularly good or inevitable. However, if you wanted to have a diminished chord here, the Bb family is more "natural" than the others because three out of its four notes are within the D major scale (more below).

 

Why does it sound good before A-7? For the obvious reason: it slides chromatically down to A-7 from the C# and Bb.

 

Why does it sound good under the melody line? The melody line is an arpeggio on the Bbo chord, so obviously it fits the melody perfectly. That just shifts the question to the melody though.

 

Why does it sound good under the lyrics or purpose of the song? I think this is the whole reason for the chord's existence in this case. The point of the song is to create the musical feeling of a wave on the beach. A diminished chord, with the melody rising up the notes on the chord, creates the feeling of an upwelling wave. Diminished works nicely because it's always on the verge of resolving, just like a wave is on the verge of falling. Diminished chords have a sort of "free falling" quality to them. So the point of the chord is that it's the same as the melody, and the point of the melody is to create the feeling of a rising wave. So I wouldn't consider the chord a substitute for A7. It's truly, purposefully diminished.

 

So the Dmaj7 with the A in the melody is a nice placid surface. The Bbo and associated melody line then introduce the upwelling wave. The only question is: why the Bbo rather than another diminished chord? One answer is that the melody line wanted to stay within the D maj scale at first, to avoid a sudden transition. Of the three diminished chords, the Bbo is the most within the Dmaj scale. Another possible answer is that it's a little more exotic sounding than the standard I I#o ii V progression.

 

I think it's a nice example of Jobim combining all the elements of a tune in a way that work perfectly very nicely, visually and aurally.

 

[This post is recycled from a post of mine last summer in another forum. Somebody asked this idential question; seems to be a common one.]

You make a good case - if I understand you correctly, you're saying it functions simply as a diminished chord. I see your point. I'm not sure the wave on the beach stuff is entirely relevant in a harmonic function discussion, although it may well be true from an expressionist point of view.

 

You said: So to answer those questions for the Bbo: why does it sound good after the Dmaj7? The quick answer is, it doesn't. At least it doesn't sound as "natural" as say A7 or several other diatonic choices.

 

I would say, it does sound good after the Dmaj7 chord, because it sounds like a V7b9 chord. I tend to always look for the simplest explanation of things. Since a V chord has the most basic of relationships to a I chord, that's where I look first. The Bbdim has four of the same notes as an A7b9 chord. So, even though the A root is not stated, I hear it ringing in my head, or at least, lurking in my head, when I hear the Bbdim. Not only that, but when I'm blowing on the tune, when I get to the Bbdim, my melodies seem to gravitate towards treating it like an A7b9.

[coyote]

Bb dim, when extended, contains 2 tritones:

Bb E - contained in Gb7 and C7

Db G - contained in A7 and Eb7

 

Following the circle of fourths, which of these lead naturally into A-7? NONE. So that explanation doesn't work.

 

In this context, it's a bIIIdim7 which subs for the VI- chord, with A-7 D7 being the II- V7 in the temporarily displaced key.

[guestuserguestuser.com]

Originally posted by coyote:

Bb dim, when extended, contains 2 tritones:

Bb E - contained in Gb7 and C7

Db G - contained in A7 and Eb7

 

Following the circle of fourths, which of these lead naturally into A-7? NONE. So that explanation doesn't work.

 

In this context, it's a bIIIdim7 which subs for the VI- chord, with A-7 D7 being the II- V7 in the temporarily displaced key.

Who says it has to lead naturally to Am7?

 

On the other hand, you could view the tones in the Bbdim chord as the #11, 13, root, and #9 of an E7. Viewed that way, it does lead naturally to an Am7 chord.....

 

There's many ways to slice up a diminished chord.

 

Also, a VI- chord in D would be Bm6. How can a Bbdim chord be seen as subbing for Bm6? Or, did you mean Bbm6? If you did mean Bbm6, then how does that clarify things? Bbm6 has almost as vague a function in this context as Bbdim. I'm confused as to what you mean.

[stoo schultz]

Richard says:

 

I'm not sure the wave on the beach stuff is entirely relevant in a harmonic function discussion

True, but the harmonic function of a chord is often not the first thing the composer had in mind when he chose it. I suppose I was thinking of overall "artistic function," as the thread title was broad.

 

In this case, Jobim could have used any of the three diminished chords to pretty much the same artistic effect. Why did he choose this particular one? My guess is that it's easier to sing in the key of D because it contains more notes in the scale.

 

I agree that it also sounds like a dominant A, but I don't think that really matters much in making the song work. He could have chosen a Ddim instead (e.g. Dmaj7 Ddim Emin7 A7) which would have had a different "harmonic function," but would have also satisfied the general artistic goal of having a dimished chord/melody at that point in the song to represent a breaking wave.

 

Just my opinion

[cnegrad]

The Bbdim works because it serves a dual function:

 

1) It's a V7b9 chord (with a b9 in the bass), and as such, a V chord can be followed by absolutely anything. Secondly,

 

2) It's simultaneously functioning as Flat-III-diminished in the key of G (the target key of the moment), naturally descending to it's II, followed by it's V and ultimately the new I chord, G.

 

For me, it doesn't get any deeper than that.

[Michelle ggurl]

Originally posted by cnegrad:

For me, it doesn't get any deeper than that.

Yay! Then let's play!

 

BTW cnegrad, I forgot to mention this, but some time ago I went to your site and heard some of your music ... great production and playing! Lots of variety too. Cheers,

 

gg

[cnegrad]

Thanks GG! I'll check out your stuff as well.

[Michelle ggurl]

None up yet, I had to remove the demo of the "old" band of last year because we went in a new direction. But the CDs should be back from the pressing plant next week or week after that ... then eventually I will stream MP3s (snippets are all my partner wants up). So check sometime in late Feb! Anyways, thanks for being willing to listen ...

[guestuserguestuser.com]

Originally posted by cnegrad:

The Bbdim works because it serves a dual function:

 

1) It's a V7b9 chord (with a b9 in the bass), and as such, a V chord can be followed by absolutely anything. Secondly,

 

2) It's simultaneously functioning as Flat-III-diminished in the key of G (the target key of the moment), naturally descending to it's II, followed by it's V and ultimately the new I chord, G.

 

For me, it doesn't get any deeper than that.

Good point about #2.

 

Sorry, I can't help myself: How do you see it functioning in the key of G? I see it as a substitute for an E7 chord.

[cnegrad]

Floyd,

How do you see it functioning in the key of G? I see it as a substitute for an E7 chord.

I think that you see the corrolation between Bbdim and E7 because techincally both they lead to the Am. However my ear is telling me otherwise, because the melody doesn't come even remotely close to working over the E7. Edim maybe, but not E7. And if the original chord was an Edim, we'd probably all be saying that it's actually an A7b9 with the fifth in the bass. And round and round it goes....

[Jazz+]

Yes, the Bb dim functions as a rootless or disguised V7b9 (A7 b9). It's target chord is D7 (via its ii chord: A-7)

Jobim does take it to D7 but he precedes the D7 with its ii chord: A-7. That is common to proceed a V chord with its ii chord.

 

| D Maj 7 | Bbdim (A7b9) | (A-7 ii of D7) | D7 (target chord)

[guestuserguestuser.com]

Originally posted by cnegrad:

Floyd,

How do you see it functioning in the key of G? I see it as a substitute for an E7 chord.

I think that you see the corrolation between Bbdim and E7 because techincally both they lead to the Am. However my ear is telling me otherwise, because the melody doesn't come even remotely close to working over the E7. Edim maybe, but not E7. And if the original chord was an Edim, we'd probably all be saying that it's actually an A7b9 with the fifth in the bass. And round and round it goes....

My first choice is to treat the Bbdim like an A7b9, and use a (starting from Bb) whole-step, half-step scale.

 

However, if you treat it as a flatIII in the key of G, which does make sense, I think you can make an argument for treating it like a kind of E7 chord. If you replace Dmaj7 with Bm7, its relative minor, you have:

 

Bm7 Bbdim Am7 D7 G

 

You can see how the Bbdim in that progression could seen as a sub for E7:

 

Bm7 E7 Am7 D7 G

 

The only thing is, it sounds pretty dissonant if you play the melody over an E7 chord. Try this, play an E7 chord in your left hand, and a Bb dim chord in your right hand. I just tried it. But if you keep doing it, after a while, your ears get used to it, and it sounds ok (to my ears, anyway, but I like dissonant chords, as long as they make some kind of theoretical or musical sense). In this case, I would use a different diminished scale: (starting from the Bb) - half-step whole-step. As I said earlier in this thread, if you view Bbdim as a sub for E7, you can view the Bb as #11, the Db as 13, the E as root, and G as #9.