Transposing a synths patch vs playing in a new key??

[Rod S]

Let me explain (bear with me since this is going to be long)

 

This has been in my head since I started learning. I remember my teacher's comments about the transposing function on synthesizers : "If I play a G, I have to listen to a G; I'll get confused if I play a G and a F comes out (synth, transposed Down 2 semitones).

 

Well, a friend of mine (yrs and yrs ago) had asked me to accompany her on piano (actually a piano patch in a synth) while she sang. During sound check she was having trouble singing in the key, so i had transpose down. I knew I was NOT going to be able to transpose the piece in my head as a played, so I hit the tranpose button. I pulled it off, but my playing felt cold, mechanical, and un natural since I found it distracting to play like that.

 

But then again, I hear stories about 'pro's' doing just that!. Not only pro's, but other people I know, who I always considered 'better' players. Example: In high school we started a cover band (luckly didn't last long) to cover jean michel jarre tunes. Two keyboard players and a drummer (ok, laugh it up). Well, during one of the songs (I think Rendezvous IV) we decide to do a finale where we raised the song up two semitones (over used trick?? http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif ), and while I just played it a key up, he chose to just transpose the keyboard (mind you, it was a ridiculous simple part in a simple song). This guy was an outstanding piano player (he was also the one who figured out most of the songs by ear so we could play). I remember being confused bout this at the time.

 

So here's the multi-part question: Can you play a part with the 'wrong notes' (keyboard transposed), would you, or would you just play at a different keys, and can you do that well (without re practicing the tune at the new key)?

 

Thanks for the input.

[Botch.]

I think it depends on how strong your "perfect Pitch" is. I can hit the Transpose knob, but like you, it makes me play mechanically, I'm "pressing buttons" instead of playing keyboards. I'd much rather transpose in my head, I can do it OK as long as its backup, if there's a pretty intricate solo I'd have to work at it a bit.

 

My latest band plays SRV's "House is a Rockin" in B so I've had to relearn that solo (its originally in A). A pain but I think it makes you a better musician.

[mojosaur]

Here is a little test. When you play in the transposed key, can you hear the notes in your head before you play them, ie does your ear adjust to the new tonic? If so then maybe you can just adjust your sense of pitch relative to a give tonic, and that A just replaces the B as your tonic, and all your other pitches are calculated relative to that note.

 

The book says ideally you want to associate the keys with specific pitches, and transposing a lot would prevent you from developing that skill, however if its a job, you have to do the job the best way you can.....in the case of SRV I would explain to the band that that tune is taken from a Texas piano boogie woogie, a very specific style and in order to play the rolling triplets correctly you can't play in B, which is true---failing that, hit the transpose button.

[joegerardi]

I never use the transpose function of a synth, except to transpose octaves when I'm creating splits.

 

I've always been of the attitude that if a song needs transposing, learn to play it that way.

 

It was the way I was trained by my teacher. At any time, during any piece, he could ask my to play it up a third, down a minor 6th, whatever. It was a real PITA most of the times, especially when playing fugues, but it served me well in later years: When my ex girlfriend (a HUGE Floyd fan) came to see us play for the very first time, I wanted to impress her, so I asked all the guys to learn "Comfortably Numb." Now, I learned it off the PULSE CD, and they all learned it of DSOTM. It's in C on DSOTM and Bb on PULSE. We never rehearsed it, we show up at the gig, and here I am trying to impress this woman whom I have just started dating, and I see the bass player with his finger on a C. I tell him he's on C and is gonna be off, and he tells me that the song is in C. QUICK TRANSPOSE MODE ON!

 

We pulled it off, and actually, with everyone concentrating on never having done it together before, the song really kicked ass, and it was in our list until we broke up. (The band, not the girl. She and I just broke up 3 months ago.)

 

Anyway, the point is, I think that you need this kind of tool in your arsenal. What would happen if you're doing an acoustic piano thing, and the singer asks you to take it down a step? (Notice, they seldom ever ask you to take it UP a step????)

 

This message has been edited by joegerardi on 07-25-2001 at 10:44 AM

[Llarion]

No way man, the transpose button is evil. I short-circuit. Not only do I hear the right notes before the wrong ones come out, but also there's the whole "keys having tonal colors relative to each other" affecting your playing style argument too....

 

------------------

Cheers!

 

Phil "Llarion: The Jazzinator" Traynor

www.mp3.com/llarion

Smooth Jazz

[b3fiend]

This is why our Evil piano teachers made us sit and practice our scales for hours a day.

 

I hated it then, but I know why I was forced to do it now...

 

-Gregg

[d-kay]

I have relative pitch and am in fact a flute-player, not a keyboard-player. I just use the piano for composing. I never had a problem with transposing songs. And I've always been good at playing by ear. My teacher sometimes got annoyed when I would play a tune (by ear) in the wrong key!!.

 

/d-kay

[Steve LeBlanc]

I'm big enough to admit I have used the transpose function before...I had to play a variation on Mussorsky's "Pictures at an Exhibition" for a wedding...the flute player was reading an Alto Sax part and I didn't know this until 2 minutes before we were supposed to start. I was afraid http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif, I certainly could have transposed it on the spot but I was getting paid way too much to risk making a mistake. I don't have perfect pitch so my ears could care less what key the keys play.

 

With that confession out of the way...I've almost always transposed everything myself instead of using the transpose key...I'm more of a piano player than a synth guy...pianos/organs/Rhodes don't have a transpose key.

 

I did a lot of Piano/Singer Jazz gigs...you've got to be able to transpose on the spot when doing that.

[Bobro]

As a one-hand synth player, I just hit the transpose button- but it always unhinges me for a few seconds, as does any kind of transposing.

 

After a couple of lines, the irk goes away.

 

-CB

[Botch.]

Originally posted by mojosaur:

.....in the case of SRV I would explain to the band that that tune is taken from a Texas piano boogie woogie, a very specific style and in order to play the rolling triplets correctly you can't play in B, which is true---failing that, hit the transpose button. [/b]

 

Hey Mojosaur, my not being very up on Texas Boogie-woogie, could you explain to me the rolling triplets? I'd be very curious to learn. Thanks!

[Steve LeBlanc]

a very specific style and in order to play the rolling triplets correctly you can't play in B

 

Why not?

[Krakit]

I simply don't have this problem with the transpose function.

 

My brother plays trumpet which is a Bb instrument.

 

(Piano is of course in C)

 

Sometimes he'll bring me some music he's been learning and he'll plop the sheets down in front of me to accompany him.

 

I'm not the strongest sight reader that ever lived so I'm not going to exacerbate the issue by throwing a transposition into the mix as well.

 

I use my built in transposer to drop down to Bb and play with him as best I can under the circumstances.

 

Never have I felt that the notes I hear over the notes I play were a distraction or in any way unexpected. I know that the C is going to be a Bb and I accept that.

 

There is one case in point where I never bothered to transpose a song and instead created a patch that did the work for me. The band I was touring with had learned a particular song by ear in the correct key, where I had learned it years ago from a songbook in the wrong key.

 

I didn't want to bother transposing the tune, so I created a patch (in my handy dandy JX-8P) that transposed it for me. I played the keys and fingering I was used to and the notes came out in the right key.

 

I toured like that for years (that song was a standard part of the repertoire) and never once did it bother me even in the slightest.

 

Carl

[b_3guy]

I heard of one of the "better" keyboard guys in town plays everything in C by transposing. I wonder what happens to him when he plays someones elses rig that doesn't transpose easily or has the transpose buried beneath a menu or 2. I never transpose. I would be afraid of not getting the right key. Then I would be afraid of forgeting to change it back. Most times I can transpose in my head fast enough.

[Fletch]

Two Quick comments:

 

First, One of the best keyboard players I know plays everything in C transposing. Once I told him he wasn't a real keybaord player and he sit down ran some scales in C at lightening speed and then asked if I could do that, I politely declined.

 

Second, I'm a singer/songwriter and the transpose works wonders live when your voice is feeling it or not! This way I don't have to relearn the song in another key, I just move it up or down depending on the way my throat feels. I haven't noticed any differences in my playing when transposing, but from now on I'll feel like I'm cheating (which doesn't bother me anyway http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif.

 

Peace,

 

Fletch

[Rod S]

Thanks for the replies.

 

My intent was not to judge people, nor put them in 'you're not a pro if you press transpose' category http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif Just wondering what people's thoughts in this issue was. Seems like there's people in both extremes of this issue. It's interesting that there seems to be a quite a few of do's and don'ts if you're a 'pro', but at the end, its all bullshit. People are different, and whatever works for you is the way you should do it.

 

This has become a non issue for me since I don't play live anymore. A lot of times I come up with a riff in a certain key, then I want to use it in another song. Most of the time I'll just record it as is, transpose it in the sequencer, and listen to it. If it sounds right, I'll leave it. If it sounds weird (specially if you try to transpose several semitones), I'll print the sheet music and try to redo it.

 

Rod

[Postman]

I like changing keys, myself. It makes my playing more varied. Take the blues for instance. I find that the keys that most lend themselves to playing a major blues are those in which the flat third is a black key (so you can slide off it). So when I play in Bb, C, Eb, F, and G I play pretty much the same thing because the same basic fingering works. The other keys, though, require a different approach. So I get a different result because I'm forced to make up different licks. I find this true for other styles as well. And the major scales are different, too. Playing in F# encourages the use of its major pentatonic, no?

 

I wonder what key would be the best to learn if you were going to choose just one. The messages above mention C major. I'm not so sure. F# is the fastest major scale in my opinion, but the flat third is a white key. Perhaps Eb?

[sudeep]

i only the transpose buttons when our band is learning a new song and i am trying to work out what key the singer can sing it in...while i probably could transpose it in my head...playing a song in 3 or 4 different keys in 10 mins just to work out the right one feels like a bit of a stress...I NEVER use the transpose button live...cos i KNOW ill forgot to transpose it back to C when we finish the song...and end up playing the next song in the wrong key!!!!

 

by the way has anyone ever watched a fully fledged opera accompanist at work in rehearsals?? transposing the most complicated music on the fly...AMAZING STUFF!!!

[Darcity]

Originally posted by joegerardi:

I never use the transpose function of a synth, except to transpose octaves when I'm creating splits.

 

I've always been of the attitude that if a song needs transposing, learn to play it that way.

 

Amen to that!!!!! I play a B3 and in church, very seldom do we sing a song in the key that it supposed to be in. If they're flowing well in A natural, we play it all there. It doesn't happen all the time(I prefer the key that it's supposed to be in) but as it does, we're ready! Being the MD, I train ALL of the other musicians to learn songs by the numbers (ex:1-4-5-1) that way if the singers go down or up, NO PROBLEM!!! However we are familiar with all of the keys. Church is a very good training ground for learning all your keys, even when you may have someone who sings in the key of J http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/confused.gifhttp://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/confused.gif PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE and you won't have to worry about embarrassment. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/redface.gif I HAVE BEEN THERE!!! http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/redface.gif

 

------------------

Darrell

[demitch]

Hello Everyone!!...Great topic!!..and since were on it, I'd like to ask a question concerning transposing...I'm attempting to re-create (record ) a Duke Ellington compostion on my keyboard through the use of my sequencer. I have a handwritten transcription of the piece with all the parts included. I've already laid down the tracks for the rhythm section...but I'm having a problem laying down the parts for the reeds and brass sections because of the keys they're pitched in...(Eb and Bb)

(The piece is in the key of Ab)

 

For Example; the Alto sax is pitched in Eb...so should I play the written notes as is or should I use my tranpose button to go up (or down) to Eb and then play the notes as is?..Also, In what part of the staff( treble or bass) are the horn parts usually notated??

 

Thanks,

DaveM

[Gus Lozada]

Sincerely I have no problems while doing both things and use them depending in my mood.

However, this discussion makes me wonder:

 

Anyone of you have ever tried using an Alternate tuning in your synth?

 

If transposing some semi-tones in the equal tempered scale causes you trouble, I wonder what could happen if you try to play an arabesque / Indian alternate tuning in your blacks / whites ... or even the ones created by Wendy Carlos.

 

Your synths have that option... do they?

[Steve LeBlanc]

For Example; the Alto sax is pitched in Eb...so should I play the written notes as is or should I use my tranpose button to go up (or down) to Eb and then play the notes as is?..Also, In what part of the staff( treble or bass) are the horn parts usually notated??

 

To make it the easiest on yourself...try transposing your synth down a minor third (C down to A) and play the notes as written on the page.

 

For the Tenor Sax part, transpose up a whole step (C to D), etc.

 

Eb on an Alto Sax is actually a C in A440, make sense?

 

Different horns are in different clefs.

 

Hope I answered your questions.

 

P.S.

I have a handwritten transcription of the piece with all the parts included.

 

If it's a transcription then everything should be in Ab right? Do you mean an original Score or a transcription...where did you get it?

 

 

 

This message has been edited by Steve LeBlanc on 07-27-2001 at 02:51 PM

[Llarion]

The horns vary:

 

Soprano Bb

Alto Eb

Tenor Bb

Bari Eb

Bass Bb

 

Trumpets are Bb. 'bones are concert pitch...

 

------------------

Cheers!

 

Phil "Llarion: The Jazzinator" Traynor

www.mp3.com/llarion

Smooth Jazz

[Bobro]

Originally posted by GusTraX:

Sincerely I have no problems while doing both things and use them depending in my mood.

However, this discussion makes me wonder:

 

Anyone of you have ever tried using an Alternate tuning in your synth?

 

If transposing some semi-tones in the equal tempered scale causes you trouble, I wonder what could happen if you try to play an arabesque / Indian alternate tuning in your blacks / whites ... or even the ones created by Wendy Carlos.

 

Your synths have that option... do they?

 

Alternate and Eastern tunings don't bother me at all- it's a matter of the whole thing being in a different place in space. In other words, the relationships between the steps can be want they want, but if the tonic moves, the whole thing is in a different place, especially in relationship to the human voice with all that fine fun passaggio and tessitura stuff. Anyway for me it's just a matter of taking a second to get my bearings, then it's fine whatever the tuning or lack thereof, and the older I get the less it matters. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif

 

According to an ethnomusicology book I was reading, wish I could remember the name, a kind of absolute pitch is common among folk musicians around the world- the book quoted African folk tunes being recorded before WWII and again in '60s or '70s with a variation of only a couple bpm and only a small variation in absolute tuning, but intervals like the 3d or 2nd can vary greatly.

 

Could have been "African Polyphony and Polyrhythm", forward by Ligeti...have to find it.

 

IMO there are certain muscial elements directly and immediately derived from physical phenomena, such as the strong partials of the octave and the fifth, perception of pitch in some absolute sense (high and low as the crudest example), a steady beat, etc., and from there on out it's a wild, wild world.

 

After thinking about these things for some time, I decided that the best approach was not to think about it, just concentrate on wearing Old Spice aftershave and keeping my buttocks firm and youthful.

 

-CB

[Gus Lozada]

... and... do you use them or not, BoBro?

Does your synth has the option?

 

And I was talking only regarding people getting confused while "transposing" a couple of semitones, what could happen to them while using an alternate tuning...

 

Still waiting... http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

Nice Info !! Thanks...

[Bobro]

Originally posted by GusTraX:

... and... do you use them or not, BoBro?

Does your synth has the option?

 

And I was talking only regarding people getting confused while "transposing" a couple of semitones, what could happen to them while using an alternate tuning...

 

Still waiting... http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

Nice Info !! Thanks...

 

Hey Gus,

 

I don't use alternate tunings in my music, except for the "colorings" you do with synthesis and singing, where you tune it by ear and it's not necessarily "correct" but it sounds right for the tune, like most everybody else I guess. And it's almost all soft-synths for me, Reaktor for example has alternate overall tuning possibilities but I don't use them.

 

What I was trying to say I guess is that I believe transposing is related to absolute pitch and alternate tunings more to relative pitch. For example, a couple of years ago I was singing with Baroque instruments, and both transposition and tuning were involved- instead of A-440, it was A-415, and not equal temperment. I forget the name of the particular temperment scheme, there are a number of them. Anyway, A-415 works out almost exactly to G# in equal temperment and the effect when you're reading the notes is a transposition a half-step down. To my surprise, that threw me off at first, I hadn't realized that I had come to associate the written notes to specific places in space. The temperment however did not bug me one bit, in fact it sounded completely "right", very easy to sing.

 

Anyway, TESTING TIME (I'm on a test-myself kick these days). I just sang the opening riff to an Indian raga (not equal temperment of course) I have on CD but haven't listened to for about 6 months and then played the CD. Absolute? NOPE, right melody but I remembered it exactly a fourth down from where it's at on the CD, it sounds pretty cool in organum. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif

 

What does it mean? Gus, I must admit- beats the hell out of me!

 

Here's a theory- Maybe since I usually start with melodies that work well within my own voice, my fingers have gotten used to the corresponding keys and relationships on the keyboard and what's really bugging me is simply laziness protesting at breaking habit.

 

Well thanks for starting this thread Rod, it's time for me to consciously avoid the transposition button.

 

Then again, Irving Berlin wrote everything in F# major and let someone else transpose, didn't he? http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif

 

-CB

[Steve LeBlanc]

Then again, Irving Berlin wrote everything in F# major and let someone else transpose, didn't he?

 

Yeah, I heard it was the key of C...doesn't matter http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif

 

I've stated before that I don't have perfect pitch...something I've noticed lately that's kinda freaked me out:

 

I often have lunch at a local Indian restaurant...they play excellent music, my favorite being the soundtrack for the movie TAL, anyway...lately everything I hear has sounded out of key EXCEPT the Indian music I hear at this restaurant or the couple of Tabla CDs I own.

 

Curious.

 

Also, one of the last tunes I wrote and recorded is way out of A440 pitch and the intonation is really weird...but it's the easiest time I've had playing and singing in a long time.

 

This stuff is either going to take a lot more study on my part or a lot less thinking about it...I dunno...this is new to me...something I never noticed before really.

[demitch]

Originally posted by Steve LeBlanc:

If it's a transcription then everything should be in Ab right? Do you mean an original Score or a transcription...where did you get it?

 

This message has been edited by Steve LeBlanc on 07-27-2001 at 02:51 PM

 

So you're saying: I should play the tenor part a whole step higher than written and the alto parts as is??

 

I got it through a gentleman who responded to an inquiry that I had posted on the SynthZone Forum. The inquiry was in regards to " where I could obtain a certain Duke Ellngton composition ". He responded stating that he had a complete transcribed score of the composition that I was looking for.

 

Little did I know, It was a handwritten transcription, that I found somewhat difficult to read, because of the "hurried" fashion in which it appeared to be written. A lot of notes very unclear, and difficult to figure out....particularly the solo parts.

 

All in all, I had been wanting to get my hands on this piece for so long, that I was just glad to have it, and am still determined to re-create it, even if I have to re-do the solo parts myself.

 

DaveM

[Bucktunes]

I'm kind of a late arrival to this thread, but here's my 2 cents;

 

I've spent the last 25 years training my ears to associate notes on the keyboard with specific pitches. (For that reason I have a hard time getting comfortable playing drums on the keyboard.) I don't quite have perfect pitch, but I'm close enough that playing one note and hearing another seriously weirds me out. If I'm playing a keyboard in a music store that's been transposed I'll notice it right away, and I have to go in and fix it before I can continue playing.

 

The only exception I could make is if I was playing something mechanically. For example, if I was sight reading something I'd never heard before and needed to put it in another key for a singer before I'd had a chance to learn the tune. And even then, if I made a mistake I'd have a hard time not correcting it by ear and landing on the wrong note. Or the RIGHT note, but it's still not right because the keyboard is transposed now and... oh, never mind!!

 

It's better for my mental and musical health to just know how to play in any key. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif

 

Peace all,

Steve

[Steve LeBlanc]

So you're saying: I should play the tenor part a whole step higher than written

and the alto parts as is??

 

No that's not what I said at all...maybe reread my post.

 

Play Eb instruments a minor third down...Bb instruments a whole step up, etc.