Invisible Keyboardists

[coyote]

I once knew a 2-girl keyboard band (yep, both played keys). Pretty good original dance music, but their live show was boring as hell. There were drums but obviously no drummer. There were horns but obviously no horn players. Just 2 girls in goofy NewWave outfits. I knew them personally so I knew they were in fact playing most of the keyboard parts live, but the audience had no way to know whether they were playing or lipsynching.

 

When you see someone BANGING REAL DRUMS on a small stage you know something is actually being created - that you're not paying a premium for something you could pay $7.98 for in a record shop. Add a guitar w/ amps or a live horn section and you HAVE to gain legitimacy! If they have enough musicianship to improvise you now have an element of surprise, of actual excitement....

 

Originally posted by felix:

Interesting, too, how an electronic band (like Depeche Mode) is seen as MORE legitimate when they introduce guitar and/or live drums. How is this indicative of musicianship/quality of music?

[Felix_dup1]

coyote -

Maybe this has something to do with the acceptance of electronic bands like The Crystal Method and Prodigy, who get very physical with their keyboards on stage, tilting them, pushing them, etc.

 

I saw BT not too long ago, and one of his keyboards was a JP8000 that was secured to a flexible stand that bent in all directions. This certainly added to the live element of his playing. I think Stabbing Westward did something similar a while ago, and Nine Inch Nails has been doing it forever.

 

I also wonder whether keyboardists have fallen victim to their instrument's capabilities. In the early 80's, being a keyboardist wasn't taboo, in fact Thomas Dolby, Nick Rhodes, Howard Jones, and others were pretty well respected as musicians. But as Synth capabilities went far beyond several times what any human could physically play (in terms of polyphony, sequencing, multitimbralism...), synthesists became programmers and producers, and thus are not seen as players anymore. Thoughts?

[Mark Zeger]

Originally posted by felix:

I also wonder whether keyboardists have fallen victim to their instrument's capabilities. In the early 80's, being a keyboardist wasn't taboo, in fact Thomas Dolby, Nick Rhodes, Howard Jones, and others were pretty well respected as musicians. But as Synth capabilities went far beyond several times what any human could physically play (in terms of polyphony, sequencing, multitimbralism...), synthesists became programmers and producers, and thus are not seen as players anymore. Thoughts?

 

Check out Howard Jones' "unplugged" album. I believe the title is "Acoustic in America" or something close to that. It's Howard, a piano, a vocal mic, and some wretched percussionist who adds nothing worthwhile to the record. I was a fan of his synth based records ("The Prisoner" is a favorite), and it's reassuring to hear that he has legit chops and that his hits hold up well in stripped down arrangements.

[coyote]

Obviously my progrock bias is gonna show, so consider this a disclaimer http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif

 

There's a diff between mere showmanship and musical effect. Jon Lord & Keith Emerson used to throw HAMMOND ORGANS around onstage, and you'd hear the crash of reverb springs and actual harmonic feedback emanate from the organs in the process. Far different than a 15lb synth on a tilt-a-whirl stand, especially since you KNOW the Hammonds were not programmable. BTW, both gentlemen could play the hell out of those things - their abuse of the Hammond was analagous to Hendrix torturing a Strat. It was as much musical as theatrical.

 

But I have respect for anyone who can make good music in the studio. I just won't pay good money to see them perform when it's obvious they won't be able to actually **play**, when it's clear that most of the show will be sequenced.

 

 

Originally posted by felix:

coyote -

Maybe this has something to do with the acceptance of electronic bands like The Crystal Method and Prodigy, who get very physical with their keyboards on stage, tilting them, pushing them, etc.

 

I saw BT not too long ago, and one of his keyboards was a JP8000 that was secured to a flexible stand that bent in all directions. This certainly added to the live element of his playing. I think Stabbing Westward did something similar a while ago, and Nine Inch Nails has been doing it forever.

 

I also wonder whether keyboardists have fallen victim to their instrument's capabilities. In the early 80's, being a keyboardist wasn't taboo, in fact Thomas Dolby, Nick Rhodes, Howard Jones, and others were pretty well respected as musicians. But as Synth capabilities went far beyond several times what any human could physically play (in terms of polyphony, sequencing, multitimbralism...), synthesists became programmers and producers, and thus are not seen as players anymore. Thoughts?

[thopman]

Originally posted by coyote:

When you see someone BANGING REAL DRUMS on a small stage you know something is actually being created - that you're not paying a premium for something you could pay $7.98 for in a record shop. Add a guitar w/ amps or a live horn section and you HAVE to gain legitimacy!

 

I remember going to a Depeche Mode concert several years ago and watching them bang on these cardboard props that were *supposed* to be drum controllers or something. They were obviously going for that "real" look, when clearly the sounds were being generated by drum machines, keyboards, etc.

 

Don't misinterpret my intent here: I think it's perfectly legit to produce sounds via these means (machines, etc.). What I'm saying is that it is a crying shame that groups have to resort to fake props in order for the audience to think the music is "real".

 

OTOH, it *does* work, and maybe it's just part of the show, like costumes, lighting, etc. The whole thing that keyboard-based music is less "real" or "authentic" is pathetic, however.

[fet]

The live music experience is about viewing players make sounds in real time, IMHO. If I'm paying to see a show, I want to see ALL the musicians.

 

A few years ago I saw a Rolling Stones show; in addition to the four principals (vocal/guitar/guitar/drums) they used a bassist, a keyboardist, three background singers and three horn players. All were on stage, all got introduced, all got plenty of spotlight. This is the right way to do it.

[Steve LeBlanc]

I just want to say I relate to SteadyB on this one.

 

I've done tours where I was hidden, it never bothered me, I kinda liked it.

In fact, I'm glad I didn't have to be seen on stage with these bands...frankly they weren't very talented and the parts I had to play were very uninspired. ALSO, they had silly stage clothes and made stupid faces acting like they were more into it that they actually were, etc. I've always hated the "I need to look really cool so the audience realizes how cool I am" routine.

 

I've also been lucky enough to play quite a few gigs the audience watching me play was part of the show and very inspirational but these gigs rarely pay much.

 

B3wiz, I hope you weren't too serious, a gig that allows you to go on the road with excellent hotel accomodations, gear endorsments, etc. is always a gig worth taking. In these situations the least of my worries was how well the audience could see me.

[steadyb]

Originally posted by Steve LeBlanc:

In fact, I'm glad I didn't have to be seen on stage with these bands...frankly they weren't very talented and the parts I had to play were very uninspired. ALSO, they had silly stage clothes and made stupid faces acting like they were more into it that they actually were, etc. I've always hated the "I need to look really cool so the audience realizes how cool I am" routine.

 

 

...a gig that allows you to go on the road with excellent hotel accomodations, gear endorsments, etc. is always a gig worth taking. In these situations the least of my worries was how well the audience could see me.

 

Thank you. That was essentially my point. It was fun, I got paid, the guys in the band were decent people to hang out with, hot chicks, cold beer, travel all over the world, it was fun.

 

LAKERS IN 4!!!!!!!!!!

[Steve LeBlanc]

decent people to hang out with, hot chicks, cold beer, travel all over the world, it was fun

 

hehe, especially hot chicks, the main reason I haven't been on the road since I got married.

 

Tonights Score:

 

Lakers 107

Sixers 85

 

This message has been edited by Steve LeBlanc on 06-06-2001 at 02:57 PM

[b3wiz]

Steve, no offense was intended bro'. My post was intended as a tongue in cheek flame, but I guess some took it too seriously. Hmmm....does that mean it was a "good" flame or a bad one?

 

My only concern, since this is the first time I ever heard of something like this, is that given the way the entertainment industry works and having put up with some ludicrous BS over the years myself, I would hate to see something like this become a trend where keyboardists become reduced to cheap sidemen on a frequent basis.

 

Of course, if I got paid good bucks with nice perks and a tour of some nice places, but had to play for say....Britney Spears, then I would WANT to be backstage. I couldn't come home and walk into my local bar or music store if the guys had seen me on stage with someone like that without getting laughed out of town. And yet, I'm sure the people who are on tour with her are ok and probably fun to hang with.

 

To each his own...I'm just probably too much of an egomaniac asshole to take a gig like that. I love making a fool out of myself in front of people. john http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

[Steve LeBlanc]

That's cool John, No offense taken.

[g05]

when it comes to "invisible keyboardists" i find that most of the time when i go to shows i'd like to be backstage or under the stage etc. just to see how things work. a good example would be Rush. i know that the band triggers all the stuff that you hear live, but they do have their own programmer(Jack Secret) to make sure everything is running alright. U2 is another good example. if there was ever a way to get a ticket to see all that, i'd be first in line!