Felix_dup1 Posted May 22, 2001 Share Posted May 22, 2001 Help me out with this one. What's up with bands who's material totally relies on keyboard parts, yet they have no keyboardist in the band (or on tour). Some examples: The Police (particularly around Ghost In The Machine) U2 - remember the big writeup in Keyboard magazine, where the massive keyboard rig and the keyboardist were UNDER the stage? More examples? And do these bands (or their fans) think they're somehow more legitimate without a keyboardist? Opinions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whyhateus Posted May 22, 2001 Share Posted May 22, 2001 depends on you really.My stage show consist of two keyboardist and one dj not bad for a Mcee(that's a rapper) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hiltonius Posted May 22, 2001 Share Posted May 22, 2001 Originally posted by felix: Help me out with this one. What's up with bands who's material totally relies on keyboard parts, yet they have no keyboardist in the band (or on tour). Some examples: The Police (particularly around Ghost In The Machine) U2 - remember the big writeup in Keyboard magazine, where the massive keyboard rig and the keyboardist were UNDER the stage? More examples? And do these bands (or their fans) think they're somehow more legitimate without a keyboardist? Opinions? Hi there I think it's a vanity/image thing. They think guitars = rock. They don't want to be seen in the company of a keyboardist. I once saw Cheap Trick play with a keyboard player behind a curtain from which they called him out at one point and introduced him (which I thought was REALLY bizarre). The offstage guys they didn't introduce that night were playing second guitar and doubling with lead vocals with Zander most of the night. I don't think Neilson sang a single note that was heard out front. I don't get it, myself. If someone's worth having play music with the band, then they're worth seeing at the show, IMHO. Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murph Posted May 22, 2001 Share Posted May 22, 2001 I have a good friend that went on the road with Guns and Roses for a bit, standing offstage, triggering background vocal samples on an ASR10. He never even got to meet the band... not that he wanted to. This practice is nothing new. Bill Murphy www.murphonics.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpcktn Posted May 22, 2001 Share Posted May 22, 2001 I'm a keyboardist that sticks the rest of the band offstage. More honeys for me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Bryce Posted May 22, 2001 Share Posted May 22, 2001 This practice is nothing new. True; however, it's never made any sense to me either. If you want keyboard parts in your songs, then add a keyboard player to the band. Period. Even if it's just for the tour - whoever is doing the parts deserves to be onstage - no exceptions. I've never heard of an auxiliary touring guitar player under the stage, nor have I ever heard of off-stage horn players - they're always just on stage with the band. Same with backing vocalists. Why are we singled out for obscurity? The worst case that I ever heard of was Casey Young (at least, I think that's his last name) who was the off-stage keyboard player for Yes during the recent tours where Rick Wakeman wasn't with the band, because they didn't want anyone to know that Tony Kaye couldn't handle the parts by himself. I seemt oremeber that Casey spoke up about it in an interview in Keyboard, and was subsequently fired from the gig. Last I heard, he was working as a salesman at West LA Music's Universal City store. Man, that must have been awful...my heart goes out to him. dB ==> David Bryce Music • Funky Young Monks <== Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steadyb Posted May 22, 2001 Share Posted May 22, 2001 I actually did two tours as an "invisible" keyboardist in 1990 and 1992. In both cases it was for 80's glam/metal bands that had unrealistically big stacked background harmonies that there was no way they could sing live OR in the studio (I doubt they could have pulled off "Love Me Do" for that matter). I was back there flying the backing vocals and a few minor keyboard parts while they lip synced away. This was before EVERYONE (concert goers) knew about samplers and it was hysterical hanging out after gigs and listening to fans tell the band, "man your harmonies are awesome, do you have to spend a lot of time practicing your singing?" Also, it was great not having to wear some ridiculous getup to do the gig. I had my ice cooler of beers close at hand, jeans and a T-shirt, and I got to see the USA, Japan, Trinidad, and South America and get paid for it. And oh yeah, the beautiful teenage girls...lots. That's one area you've got to hand it to those late 80's/early 90's glam bands. Touring...it's a great gig for someone who's single, But once you're married and especially after you have a kid, you just don't want to be away for so long. But those days did make for a lot of great stories. steadyb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 23, 2001 Share Posted May 23, 2001 Boy, am I naaive. I think if somebody asked me to do something like that I would probably deck them. I do know a band, however, that sampled all their keyboard players parts while he was in jail for 6 months on coke charges. The drummer played to a click the whole time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tedster Posted May 23, 2001 Share Posted May 23, 2001 How stupid can one get? I mean...just watching Steely Dan's DVD (and countless others) and seeing all those musicians...why would anyone think it was cool to have "ghost" players? I mean, even The Beatles...as guarded about others as they were, had Billy Preston plonking away on the rooftop. He might not have gotten a lot of camera, but he was there. Just plain tragic. "Cisco Kid, was a friend of mine" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sudeep Posted May 23, 2001 Share Posted May 23, 2001 im sure its just ego i dont think its anything personal against the keyboardist. I heard Savage Garden on their Australian tour had one of sydneys top session guitarists playing away offstage. I even heard of rumours about Aerosmiths Joe Perry not playing all of his parts. I could imagine alot of these bands are told how great they are so often that when reality hits, and they realise they cant really play their own parts and someone else needs to come in, its a bit too much for the ego to handle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steadyb Posted May 23, 2001 Share Posted May 23, 2001 Originally posted by Tedster: How stupid can one get? I'm not sure if you're directing that at me or the bands that have that policy. But a gig's a gig, especially when it pays the bills. So try not to be so judgmental. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Zeger Posted May 23, 2001 Share Posted May 23, 2001 Originally posted by Tedster: I mean, even The Beatles...as guarded about others as they were, had Billy Preston plonking away on the rooftop. He might not have gotten a lot of camera, but he was there. The Who always had John "Rabbit" Bundrick prominently on stage. With all the classic keyboard parts in The Who songbook, especially on the Quadrophenia material, there's no way you could credibly stick a keyboard player offstage. I saw Sting this past weekend, and he added a second keyboard player in his band. Kenny Kirland and subsequently David Sancious held down the parts solo. At least they didn't fly in a vocal sample of Cheb Mami for "Desert Rose" (the opening synth arpeggios were understandably sequenced). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coyote Posted May 23, 2001 Share Posted May 23, 2001 Sometimes it ain't a question of 'cool' to have unseen or uncredited support players. If it's a name player (like Clapton w/ the Beatles) you run into all sorts of contractual issues.... that aside I also dislike the 'ghost' player concept but as another here said "A gig's a gig" and a PRO who is being paid to play behind the curtain should be able to do the job and keep quiet about it. No sympathy for Casey Young here if part of the gig was to keep quiet - you wait til after the gig's over to speak up (tho you'd think Yes, w/ their constantly changing lineup, would be proud to display all their talent). JMO of course. Originally posted by Tedster: How stupid can one get? I mean...just watching Steely Dan's DVD (and countless others) and seeing all those musicians...why would anyone think it was cool to have "ghost" players? I mean, even The Beatles...as guarded about others as they were, had Billy Preston plonking away on the rooftop. He might not have gotten a lot of camera, but he was there. Just plain tragic. I used to think I was Libertarian. Until I saw their platform; now I know I'm no more Libertarian than I am RepubliCrat or neoCON or Liberal or Socialist. This ain't no track meet; this is football. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felix_dup1 Posted May 23, 2001 Author Share Posted May 23, 2001 "The Who always had John "Rabbit" Bundrick prominently on stage." Funny, with as much keyboard work as they relied on, that he was never a member of the band. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murph Posted May 24, 2001 Share Posted May 24, 2001 It's all in what you can get away with. The kids never ask Britney Spears' band members about how they get their sound, or how she can sing AND dance at the same time. The teenage girls really didn't want to know how much the 80's glam bands practiced their vocals. But when the piano solo comes up and there's no keyboardist... you start to wonder. Watching Rush's Alex Lifeson go up to the mic and lip-sync the word "Subdivisions" while triggering the sample with his foot... I laughed! It didn't bother me, because I was one of the few who cared! And the band did it themselves! Bill Murphy www.murphonics.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felix_dup1 Posted May 30, 2001 Author Share Posted May 30, 2001 And by the way, does anyone know who handles the keyboards (keyboard solo, mono synth bass line) in the new REM single, or the Chicago-esque unison "horns" solo in the recent Matchbox 20 song? Anyone care to place bets on whether there will be a keyboardist on stage for their tours? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Zeger Posted May 30, 2001 Share Posted May 30, 2001 Originally posted by felix: And by the way, does anyone know who handles the keyboards (keyboard solo, mono synth bass line) in the new REM single, or the Chicago-esque unison "horns" solo in the recent Matchbox 20 song? Anyone care to place bets on whether there will be a keyboardist on stage for their tours? As for REM, it could be bassist Mike Mills playing keyboard. He plays some keyboards live while a "utility" player covers the bass part. They often have one or two extra musicians on stage, mostly covering guitar parts (I think Pete Holsapple in one guitarist). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Flier Posted May 30, 2001 Share Posted May 30, 2001 Well... It isn't always just ego. I've always sought out keyboard players to be full fledged band members, in just about every band I've put together. Sometimes I am successful in finding one, but it seems there are relatively few keyboard players out there in relation to other musicians, and those that are good and have all the gear, want to get paid well. A lot of them don't want to join an original band, because they are in demand and they can play with several different bands on a gig by gig or album by album basis. Therefore, a lot of bands become "names" without a permanent keyboard player, and once they are "names" people associate the band with its original members and a lot of bands are reluctant to give a keyboardist "full member" status when 1) they weren't necessarily there through all the hard times and 2) the fans don't know who the keyboardist is but they know everybody else. I'm not saying I think that's great; I'm just saying that's been the reality throughout my career and a lot of other people's I've known. A couple of times I've been lucky enough to find a great keyboardist who wanted to be a full band member from the get-go. In that case I'm more than happy to share any limelight, money or whatever else comes our way. FWIW a lot of bands also carry an extra guitar player or horn players to be able to duplicate parts that were overdubbed on record, and they don't ask those people to become part of the band either. IMO if you weren't there during the lean times, you shouldn't expect full member status. You should get paid and you should get credit, but the fans are there to see the guys on the album cover, so even though I think it's silly when bands put side musicians off to the side of the stage where they can't be seen, I understand why they usually aren't asked to become a member of the band. --Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Bryce Posted May 30, 2001 Share Posted May 30, 2001 Originally posted by Lee Flier: FWIW a lot of bands also carry an extra guitar player or horn players to be able to duplicate parts that were overdubbed on record, and they don't ask those people to become part of the band either. IMO if you weren't there during the lean times, you shouldn't expect full member status. I don't think that it's about full member status - I fully agree with your point on that - I think it's about being asked to play behind a curtain, or under the stage. Even as an audience member, not just as a keyboard player, I kinda wanna know who's making the music. Playing off to the side of the stage, or playing behind the band both seem to me to be reasonable options. You should get paid and you should get credit, but the fans are there to see the guys on the album cover, so even though I think it's silly when bands put side musicians off to the side of the stage where they can't be seen, I understand why they usually aren't asked to become a member of the band. Do any of you know of situations where an extra guitar player, horn section, backing vocalists or any side musicians other than keyboard players have been asked to play and/or sing out of sight? I've only heard of that being done with keyboard players - I'd love to know if it's done with other musicians as well....it'd sure make me feel better... dB ==> David Bryce Music • Funky Young Monks <== Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Flier Posted May 30, 2001 Share Posted May 30, 2001 Originally posted by Dave Bryce: Do any of you know of situations where an extra guitar player, horn section, backing vocalists or any side musicians other than keyboard players have been asked to play and/or sing out of sight? I've only heard of that being done with keyboard players - I'd love to know if it's done with other musicians as well....it'd sure make me feel better... Actually I saw Eve 6 not too long ago and they had a second guitar player who was standing off to the side of the stage where you couldn't see him. I think they introduced him and let him come out for one song. That's just the most recent example, I'm sure I could think of others. I agree that it's a lame thing to do. But I sort of understand why people do it - it's to kinda preserve the illusion of a band mentality. Again, the fans wanna see the people on the album cover and in the video. All these "extra guys" dilute the picture a little. I would never do that myself, but from a "marketing to the kids" perspective I guess I can see why some people do. --Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SFOracle Posted May 30, 2001 Share Posted May 30, 2001 I do think hiding keyboard players is somewhat unique. It is deemed cool to travel with a horn or string section and a bunch of hottie back up vocalists. It does not seem to be as cool to admit that you need help from professional keyboard players to reproduce what was created in the studio. Use of ghost singers is sometimes understandable. Lead vocalists often need to use sampled parts or ghosts singers to cover material that they can nail in a studio with a healthy voice, but after 79 shows, 35 cities and months on the road, even the strongest voices get burned out (not to mention flu, colds, bronchitis etc.) I think this is pretty common. I was working for Vancouver sound company that was providing some gear for a WhiteSnake concert circa 1992 or so and I can guarantee you there were two vocalists and a guy trigering a bunch of samples behind a curtain "covering" David Coverdale's vocals. But Steve Vai didn't need any help on guitar. I can also understand using ghost players or sequenced parts when the keyboards are not a big part of the sound but are needed to cover some recognizable material. But I don't think they should be hidden under the stage or behind a curtain. People pay to see the guys on the album cover, and they also expect to hear live the quality of sound they heard on the CD. But bands that hide musicians who are add significantly to the overall sound are really not fooling anyone. I guess I kind of feel that extra musicians should be visible to the extent that they contribute to the overall sound. Don. Our country is not the only thing to which we owe our allegiance. It is also owed to justice and to humanity. Patriotism consists not in waving the flag, but in striving that our country shall be righteous as well as strong: James Bryce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b3wiz Posted May 30, 2001 Share Posted May 30, 2001 Depending on the gig, my band and one that I play with frequently, invite an extra guitar or sax player. People who know us know they aren't part of the lineup. But, it is a special treat for us and our fans to have them aboard. We introduce them to the audience, feature them and make them a part of the action and a good time is had by all. The thought of putting extras behind the scenes is about the most crass, lame, thoughtless, egocentric, inhumane, slap in the face of all musicianhod that I can think of. Anyone who would consider doing such a thing should be sent off to a some kind of leper colony or something. If I were God, I would send them off to the worst kind of hell they could ever imagine. Piss me off? You bet. Don't EVEN try to rationalize this to me. My ears are closed on this one. Anyone who would take a gig like this either would have to be desparate, sick or without a soul. Damned rotten music business sons of bitches anyway....filthy scum laden, human shaped vomit.....they must be aliens.....a curse on these people... a curse I tell you. I don't care if it's a contractual thing or what....take the lawyers and agents out and run them thru a whole tree chipper....cut them up with a dull chain saw....people like this must be damned.....it's gotta....oh whatzdause? http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/frown.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steadyb Posted May 30, 2001 Share Posted May 30, 2001 Originally posted by b3wiz: Anyone who would take a gig like this either would have to be desparate, sick or without a soul. ...or just not interested in being onstage or in the limelight. Think BEFORE you make stupid remarks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b3wiz Posted May 30, 2001 Share Posted May 30, 2001 No appologies here. Sure there might be one keyboardist out of perhaps a hundred thousand or so that your inferrance may apply to, but it still takes someone to create such a position and many will whore themselves out and apply for it. And each time it happens it makes it that much more justifiable to the industry big wigs and the next thing you know they are promoting 2 or 3 piece bands with a host of invisble (ie. cheap) side musicians. Look, they are already in control and everytime we sit back and allow this crap to happen we stab ourselves in our own backs. Am I over emphatic? Yes. But, stupid? No Way. The only stupidity comes from shooting back remarks without considering the ramifications of what a practice like this might entail for the rest of us. We've sat back and allowed the government and DJs to ruin the club business for musicians instead of working toward solutions. Now that MP3 is owned by the big boys we all have to compete with the big dollars for a position on the mp3 charts. I've done what I can on my own to create a market for myself so I can survive, but it sure is a hell of a lot tougher to make in live performance than it used to be and most of it is our own fault for not doing anything and allowing the big boys to lead us off to the slaughter. No one thinks their house will ever burn down until it does. You know, we have thru these forums a powerful weapon if we use our heads. We can brainstorm ways to resolve some of the problems that face our craft and have lobbying and petition power in numbers we could only have imagined a couple of years ago. Or we can just sit around and complain about it and fight with each other. There are enough people in here on the edge of the industry to keep us informed of the changes and we should be using this knowledge for the good of us all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steadyb Posted May 30, 2001 Share Posted May 30, 2001 Originally posted by b3wiz: ... there might be one keyboardist out of perhaps a hundred thousand or so that your inferrance may apply to, but it still takes someone to create such a position and many will whore themselves out and apply for it. "One out of a hundred thousand" ??? Exaggerations like that do nothing but weaken your point. Lose the hysteria if you want to be taken seriously. We've sat back and allowed the government and DJs to ruin the club business for musicians instead of working toward solutions. You mean the way rock bands replaced Big Bands, synthesizer replaced the orchestra, or the Rhodes ruined it for the Piano, or the way hard disk recording ruined it for tape recorders??? It's called evolution, deal with it. Now that MP3 is owned by the big boys we all have to compete with the big dollars for a position on the mp3 charts. Ah, MP3...the measuring stick of hi quality audio. No one thinks their house will ever burn down until it does. That's why there's fire insurance. Instead of demanding that time stand still for you, try and keep up. This message has been edited by steadyb on 05-30-2001 at 04:14 PM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b3wiz Posted May 30, 2001 Share Posted May 30, 2001 It should have been obvious I had my "flame" on to begin with, but apparently just as it was back in the flame wars there were some who didn't get it. But, nevertheless, while some change has proven to be good, we have allowed some things to happen that shouldn't. And, while I might be wrong about this in the long run, (even though my original intentions were tongue in cheek) it is pretty hard to see the good in it right now. Yeah, it's show biz and as long as it's practice is limited, there is probably no real threat. But, there is just a lot of things that come down the pike in this society that we allow to happen that aren't good that we could do something about. We could be a unified voice thru this forum once in a while.....I think. Oh by the way, of course, as you might have expected, I dead serious about the whole tree chipper and the dull chain saw too. Sheeeeesh!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steadyb Posted May 30, 2001 Share Posted May 30, 2001 Originally posted by b3wiz: Oh by the way, of course, as you might have expected, I dead serious about the whole tree chipper and the dull chain saw too. I'm completely with you on that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Jones Posted May 31, 2001 Share Posted May 31, 2001 Originally posted by steadyb: Originally posted by b3wiz: ... there might be one keyboardist out of perhaps a hundred thousand or so that your inferrance may apply to, but it still takes someone to create such a position and many will whore themselves out and apply for it. "One out of a hundred thousand" ??? Exaggerations like that do nothing but weaken your point. Lose the hysteria if you want to be taken seriously. We've sat back and allowed the government and DJs to ruin the club business for musicians instead of working toward solutions. You mean the way rock bands replaced Big Bands, synthesizer replaced the orchestra, or the Rhodes ruined it for the Piano, or the way hard disk recording ruined it for tape recorders??? It's called evolution, deal with it. Now that MP3 is owned by the big boys we all have to compete with the big dollars for a position on the mp3 charts. Ah, MP3...the measuring stick of hi quality audio. No one thinks their house will ever burn down until it does. That's why there's fire insurance. Instead of demanding that time stand still for you, try and keep up. Actually the ratio is one in a googleplex (spelling?) Remember the Music!!! Michael This message has been edited by midirat on 05-30-2001 at 06:09 PM "I may be a craven little coward, but I'm a greedy craven little coward." Daffy Duck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steadyb Posted May 31, 2001 Share Posted May 31, 2001 Originally posted by midirat: Actually the ratio is one in a googleplex We have a googleplex by my house. I took my son there to see Shrek. It was excellent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felix_dup1 Posted June 1, 2001 Author Share Posted June 1, 2001 Interesting, too, how an electronic band (like Depeche Mode) is seen as MORE legitimate when they introduce guitar and/or live drums. How is this indicative of musicianship/quality of music? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.