Rosh Hashanah

[AmadMozart]

Just wanted to post a prayer of peace for humanity at the start of the Jewish New Year. May God grant wisdom and guidance to our leaders during these troubled days, May God grant comfort to those who have suffered, and May God grant eternal rest to those who have passed from our midst. L'Shana Tova Mark ------------------ http://www.broadjam.com/artistprofile/artistindex.asp?artistID=936 or listen at... http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/294/mark_coming_project.html

[Pro Jules]

I got a bad feeling about that date..I had a feeling of forboding about it before the attack.. I hope it passes peacefully... Jules

[Tedster]

Peace, Shalom, I'll raise a glass to that!!!

[Mark Zeger]

It was very tough to read the translated words of the High Holiday liturgy, filled with references to "who shall live, who shall die" and being "inscribed (and, on Yom Kippur, sealed) in the Book of Life for the coming year". May we all being inscribed and sealed for a year of peace.

[NKF]

>>>May God grant wisdom and guidance to our leaders during these troubled days<<< It's all human, all history is work of people - there is no god or whatever to help us. Religiosity is part of the problem, not of the solution. This barbarian time of pre-history is filled with militarism, religiosity and all kinds of non-thinking. Peace and understanding must be produced by us all. To pray to a non-existing 'being' is just naive and sadly helpless. Nirto Karsten Fischer

[joegerardi]

[quote]Originally posted by NKF: [b]>>>May God grant wisdom and guidance to our leaders during these troubled days<<< It's all human, all history is work of people - there is no god or whatever to help us. Religiosity is part of the problem, not of the solution. This barbarian time of pre-history is filled with militarism, religiosity and all kinds of non-thinking. Peace and understanding must be produced by us all. To pray to a non-existing 'being' is just naive and sadly helpless. Nirto Karsten Fischer[/b][/quote] So is altering frequencies rhythmically and melodicly so that our ears might perceive it as music. You sir, are a ninny. Allow anyone their beliefs and do not criticize them for their faith. Many men and women spilled their blood in America's past so that these people have that RIGHT. Sheesh! Some people's brains are there simply to keep their ears apart... On this Rosh Hashannah, (I don't know if it is proper or not, but...) may I say to all of the Jewish faith out there: "Mazel Tov!" This message has been edited by joegerardi on 09-20-2001 at 06:28 AM

[Pro Jules]

See if you guys can't get on a little better with the Palastinians somehow this coming year, and try it without a proviso 'they have to start first', that's starting to get a little 'old' now. Mozeltoff! Jules

[AmadMozart]

[quote]Originally posted by NKF: [b]>>>May God grant wisdom and guidance to our leaders during these troubled days<<< It's all human, all history is work of people - there is no god or whatever to help us. Religiosity is part of the problem, not of the solution. This barbarian time of pre-history is filled with militarism, religiosity and all kinds of non-thinking. Peace and understanding must be produced by us all. To pray to a non-existing 'being' is just naive and sadly helpless. Nirto Karsten Fischer[/b][/quote] Thank you, and God bless you, Nirto [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] Cheers, Mark ------------------ http://www.broadjam.com/artistprofile/artistindex.asp?artistID=936 or listen at... http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/294/mark_coming_project.html

[not coaster MODERATOR]

And a happy new year to my Jewish friends from Cereal. Pray for the peace of Jerusalem. "Life's been good to me SHofar!!!!!"

[Soundscape Studios.]

[quote]Originally posted by Julian standen: [b] See if you guys can't get on a little better with the Palastinians somehow this coming year, and try it without a proviso 'they have to start first', that's starting to get a little 'old' now. Mozeltoff! Jules [/b][/quote] Y'know that statement is analogous to saying "hopefully the U.S. can start getting along with Bin Ladin". Don't you get it ?!? Its actually quite offensive to see people thinking like that. ------------------

[Pro Jules]

"you guys' - read Jewish people / Isreal. Is that clearer for ya? Jules This message has been edited by Julian standen on 09-20-2001 at 09:38 AM

[Soundscape Studios.]

I understood that the first time. What I meant to say was that, the same way America is not expected to make peace with Bin Ladin and his cohorts, Isral should not be expected to make peace with people who randomly blow themselves up along with hundreds of other innocent peace loving Israeli citizens. To even entertain the thought of peace with these people is unfathomable, and frankly, offensive. Peace brother, Sruly ------------------

[KJ]

Peace, shalom, salaam...

[Dave Bryce]

[quote]Originally posted by Julian standen: [b]"you guys' - read Jewish people / Isreal. Is that clearer for ya? [/b][/quote] Jewish people and Israelis are not the same thing, Jules. Judaism is a religion, and Israel is a nation. While I believe that it is true that most of the Israelis are Jewish, they will be the first to tell you that the Jews around the world are not Israelis - I've heard it said more than once that there are Israeli Jews that don't even think that most Jews outside of Israel (epecially the non-orthodox, non-Chassidic Jews) are really Jewish. Plus, I do not believe that most of the Jews around the world feel as strongly about the Palestinians as the Israelis do. The situation doesn't affect their lives anywhere near the way it does the people who live in Israel, if at all. I believe that this sort of thinking is just as misguided as the Afghan religious leaders who are calling for a worldwide Muslim jihad against the US if it attacks Afghanistan. I honestly do not think that the two are related, and I think that it is pretty uncool that the Afghan clerics are attempting to link them. dB This message has been edited by Dave Bryce on 09-20-2001 at 12:31 PM

[Soundscape Studios.]

[quote]Originally posted by Dave Bryce: [b] Plus, I do not believe that most of the Jews around the world feel as strongly about the Palestinians as the Israelis do. The situation doesn't affect their lives anywhere near the way it does the people who live in Israel, if at all. ="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">This message has been edited by Dave Bryce on 09-20-2001 at 12:31 PM [/b][/quote] Your statement about jews not necessarily being israelis is accurate since an israeli is simply someone who resides in israel. This makes american jews not israelis. However, what you said about jews around the world not caring about the whole situation as much as israeli jews do, could not be further from the truth. you must understand that many jews in america have immediate family and many friends living there-I personally took a two year leave to go to israel. When something happens over there, it affects us just as much over here, too. You would be hard pressed to find an american jew who has a passive attitude toward Palestinian suicide bombers. *****Peace*****

[Soundscape Studios.]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dave Bryce: [B] I've heard it said more than once that there are Israeli Jews that don't even think that most Jews outside of Israel (epecially the non-orthodox, non-Chassidic Jews) are really Jewish By the way Dave, regardless of what people think, if someones mother was jewish, so are they! Observance and/or location have nothing to do with being jewish. even if one were to be completely non-observant, they are just as jewish as the guys with the big furry hats.

[Pro Jules]

Now thats been cleared up.. Originally posted by Julian standen: See if you guys can't get on a little better with the Palastinians somehow this coming year, and try it without a proviso 'they have to start first', that's starting to get a little 'old' now. Mozeltoff! Jules

[RKing]

[quote]Originally posted by Julian standen: [b]Now thats been cleared up.. Originally posted by Julian standen: See if you guys can't get on a little better with the Palastinians somehow this coming year, and try it without a proviso 'they have to start first', that's starting to get a little 'old' now. Mozeltoff! Jules[/b][/quote] Why don't you see if you guys can't get on a little better with folks in Northern Ireland?! This message has been edited by RKing on 09-21-2001 at 09:07 PM This message has been edited by RKing on 09-21-2001 at 09:08 PM

[Pro Jules]

Things are creepng along in Ireland, I think the US 'war on terrorism', chivied things along a little these last few days. Jules This message has been edited by Julian standen on 09-21-2001 at 09:22 PM

[Dave Bryce]

[b]By the way Dave, regardless of what people think, if someones mother was jewish, so are they! Observance and/or location have nothing to do with being jewish. even if one were to be completely non-observant, they are just as jewish as the guys with the big furry hats. [/b] Thanks. Since both my mother [i]and[/i] father were Jewish (and so am I - Bar Mitzvahed and confirmed), I believe that perhaps I understand. [b]However, what you said about jews around the world not caring about the whole situation as much as israeli jews do, could not be further from the truth. you must understand that many jews in america have immediate family and many friends living there-I personally took a two year leave to go to israel. When something happens over there, it affects us just as much over here, too. You would be hard pressed to find an american jew who has a passive attitude toward Palestinian suicide bombers.[/b] Understood. If you'll read my post again, you'll see that I didn't say anything about anyone having a passive attitude. I said that I believe that non-Israeli Jews don't feel as strongly about the Palestinians as the Israeli ones do. We don't live there. We don't deal with it every day. How can we possibly feel the same as they do? Sympathy is one thing - living with it is quite another. I have had occasion to know quite a few Jews who are blithely ignorant about what goes on in Israel. It just doesn't affect their lives. Many of the kids with whom I grew up only saw Hebrew School as a reason to be social - the Jewish faith really meant very little to them, and Israel was just another country. I'm sorry if that bothers you, but it has been my experience. Sorry if I was unclear. dB This message has been edited by Dave Bryce on 09-22-2001 at 01:46 AM

[joegerardi]

Dave: Mind going a little OT here? I uderstand a Bar and Bas Mitzvah, but what is [i]confirmed[/i] in the Jewish Faith? As an Italian Roman Catholic, I'm interested, and ignorant of it. Is it anything like a Catholic confirmation? Thanks ..Joe

[Dave Bryce]

[quote]Originally posted by joegerardi: [b]I understand a Bar and Bas Mitzvah, but what is [i]confirmed[/i] in the Jewish Faith? As an Italian Roman Catholic, I'm interested, and ignorant of it. Is it anything like a Catholic confirmation?[/b][/quote] Well, my knowledge of Catholic confirmation is somewhat limited, but I believe that it happens much earlier than it does in Judaism. The Jewish version is a confirmation of faith (as I believe it is for the Roman Catholics) that happens a few years after Bar/Bat Mitzvah. Also, unlike a Bar/Bat Mitzvah (which are either done individually, or in groups of two or three), confirmation is done en masse, as I believe that it is in the Roman Catholic faith. Mine was when I was 16 - that's a lot later than Catholic confirmation, right? BTW - Bas Mitzvah and Bat Mitzvah are the same thing - there are different dialects of Hebrew... dB This message has been edited by Dave Bryce on 09-22-2001 at 11:22 AM

[joegerardi]

[quote]Originally posted by Dave Bryce: [b] Well, my knowledge of Catholic confirmation is somewhat limited, but I believe that it happens much earlier than it does in Judaism. The Jewish version is a confirmation of faith (as I believe it is for the Roman Catholics) that happens a few years after Bar/Bat Mitzvah. Also, unlike a Bar/Bat Mitzvah (which are either done individually, or in groups of two or three), confirmation is done en masse, as I believe that it is in the Roman Catholic faith. Mine was when I was 16 - that's a lot later than Catholic confirmation, right? BTW - Bas Mitzvah and Bat Mitzvah are the same thing - there are different dialects of Hebrew... dB[/b][/quote] Dave: Thanks. I love many of the traditions of Judaism, like the breaking of the glass at a wedding ceremony, the canopy, Spock's "V" hand symbol (no disrespect meant - I don't know what it's called, and that's the only way I can describe it.) etc., and that was why I asked. When I did Godspell, I had to learn the Hebrew blessing of the bread and wine, which I can still recite, though very badly, I'm sure. To answer your question, yes that is a little later than in the Catholic religion. I believe that now they are confirming children around the 8th grade or so. What is that? 13? 14? Though when I was a tyke, I was confirmed in the 3rd grade. This was in NY City, and most Catholics I meet have a hard time believing I was confirmed so young. Most say the 8th grade. Of course, that was then. Now I am a teleological existential atheist. That means I believe God exists, except for certain parts of Arkansas! [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] Thanks for the info. It's amazing what one can learn on a [i]MUSIC[/i] forum!

[fantasticsound]

[quote]Originally posted by NKF: [b]>>>May God grant wisdom and guidance to our leaders during these troubled days<<< It's all human, all history is work of people - there is no god or whatever to help us. Religiosity is part of the problem, not of the solution. This barbarian time of pre-history is filled with militarism, religiosity and all kinds of non-thinking. Peace and understanding must be produced by us all. To pray to a non-existing 'being' is just naive and sadly helpless. Nirto Karsten Fischer[/b][/quote] You, mein freund, need to take a l-i-t-t-l-e time-out. (As I'd say to my 2 year old.) I heard your clone (You know, they say everyone has a body-double out there?? This would be your conscious twin.) on talk radio last Friday. This poster child for A-Little-Knowledge-Can-Be-Dangerous complimented George W. on a great speech... except for one thing. In this guy's view, the president shouldn't have referred to Islam as a "peaceful, non-violent" religeon. Why? Because the government shouldn't endorse any religeon! Ohhh.. crossed that line of church/state by mentioning Islam is good, in the context of these terrorists are Islamic, but not all (or most) Islamic people are terrorists. I think the two of you would get along famously. Hours of intellectual fun! Despite that, I wish you, and all, L'shana tova, tika tevu, and peace be with us all. Hey! You may be right, and there is no God, supreme-being, etc. Yet somehow, there is a large body of evidence to suggest that prayer has a profound effect on healing. It doesn't supplant medical treatment, it augments it. Let's heal the world through prayer. Let me clarify. Prayer does not solve the problems of the world, it gives us strength and confidence to carry out the steps towards world peace. Regardless, insulting the faithful is certainly a step backwards in this process, whether you're right or wrong about God. ------------------ Neil [b]Reality[/b]: [i]A few moments of lucidity surrounded by insanity.[/i]

[Pro Jules]

I whent to a Bar Mitsvah once - man! Those things go on for HOURS! Great party after though! And I got to keep the hat! I've danced the 'Hava Nageela' (?) at a wedding, I think we all had a go.. I lived next to a Jewish family when I was a kid, for a time I was their 'shabas Goy',for a dollar I turned on their air-con and lights on their Sabbath. Nice hot dogs.. [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] Jules

[NKF]

fantasticsound wrote: >>>You, mein freund, need to take a l-i-t-t-l-e time-out. (As I'd say to my 2 year old.)<<< You didn't outgrow this level of polemic when you left elementary school? Should I call you 'Daddy' now? >>>Yet somehow, there is a large body of evidence to suggest that prayer has a profound effect on healing.<<< Maybe, but this comes after the effect of weakening mental health the whole lifetime of believers. Of course somebody who not experienced a life without religion never knows how liberating that is. >>>Let's heal the world through prayer. Let me clarify. Prayer does not solve the problems of the world, it gives us strength and confidence to carry out the steps towards world peace.<<< Good that we aggree in one goal: world peace. But 'world' is a world of human interests, aggressions, profit making, 'terrorism' etc. To pray is not to act - it's staying in a hamster wheel. All Religions are assuming a kind of 'truth' which is at least intellectual totalitarism. >>>insulting the faithful is certainly a step backwards in this process<<< here we feel this above mentioned totalitarism ... not to believe and express it is seen as an insult. We had all this for centuries now ... It's just my right to express my disbelieve and talk about religion as historical formations that were always connected to oppressing people - it is and was the favourite 'remote control' of people in power in many countries. To give religion an aura of something been outside of human history/society but functioning as a massive power in politics is the old trick. People who named and described this in the past were simply burned to ashes. and BTW.: people can reply with humor like AmadMozart: >>>Thank you, and God bless you, Nirto<<< This is something I like - at least it shows some tolerance. Nirto Karsten Fischer

[Soundscape Studios.]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dave Bryce: [B] Well, my knowledge of Catholic confirmation is somewhat limited, but I believe that it happens much earlier than it does in Judaism. The Jewish version is a confirmation of faith (as I believe it is for the Roman Catholics) that happens a few years after Bar/Bat Mitzvah. Also, unlike a Bar/Bat Mitzvah (which are either done individually, or in groups of two or three), confirmation is done en masse, as I believe that it is in the Roman Catholic faith. Mine was when I was 16 - that's a lot later than Catholic confirmation, right? BTW - Bas Mitzvah and Bat Mitzvah are the same thing - there are different dialects of Hebrew... Allright guys, let's clear the air here.I guess all my secrects gotta come out. Let me start by saying that I am currently completing my 9th(!!!)year in the highest Rabbinical college in the US (in Jersey). I'm fully Orthodox and observe sabbath...The full 9 yards. So you can trust my info. First off, there isnt any confirmation whatsoever in Judaism. Never even heard of the concept as it applies to jews. Second,a bar mitzvah is simply another name for the TIME when a boy turns 13.It has nothing to do with a party, or ceremony or whatever.Even if nothing is done to observe the event , the boy is still called a "Bar Mitzvah", because the age of 13 is when you are required to start following commandments.So, even if you were never "Bar Mitzvahed", you are still "Bar Mitzvahed"! Third,a Bat Mitzvah is the same thing as above, just in reference to girls. The age however, is 12 ,not 13. Anyway guys, how the hell does a recording forum turn into Sunday school - I don't know! But I thought you might find it interesting to know that there are Rabbi/musician/engineers out there. --Sruly--

[lovesinger]

[quote]Originally posted by Julian standen: [b] See if you guys can't get on a little better with the Palastinians somehow this coming year, and try it without a proviso 'they have to start first', that's starting to get a little 'old' now. Mozeltoff! Jules[/b][/quote] Easy to say from a distance, Jules. If you had to live each day in the atmosphere of continual anxiety and in some cases despair many of them experience, that armchair quarterback political wisdom might be different. (On a televised behind-the-Jerusalem-we-usually-see focus, one Israeli citizen said on-camera "it would be better if we die than keep having to live like this", and her countenance showed the agony she spoke of)

[Dave Bryce]

[b]Allright guys, let's clear the air here.I guess all my secrects gotta come out. Let me start by saying that I am currently completing my 9th(!!!)year in the highest Rabbinical college in the US (in Jersey). I'm fully Orthodox and observe sabbath...The full 9 yards. So you can trust my info.[/b] Cool! A rabbi/musician! I'd be very interested to hear some of your stuff! Seriously - no sarcasm intended. [b]First off, there isnt any confirmation whatsoever in Judaism. Never even heard of the concept as it applies to jews.[/b] What - do you think I made it up? [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] Well, you've heard of it now. I was confirmed at Temple Keneseth Israel in Jenkintown, PA by Rabbi Bert Korn. Contact them if you need to verify that they do this (or did it in the '70s, anyway). It is a reform congregation, which I imagine a rabbinic student might view as being a poor/inadequate Jewish education - however, that's what I got. I believe that Temple Rodeph Shalom, also in the Philly area conducts a confirmation academy as well - or did, anyway...my brother was confirmed there. My mother was President of the JNF for a few years, too - so Judaism was not held lightly in my house. [b]Second,a bar mitzvah is simply another name for the TIME when a boy turns 13.It has nothing to do with a party, or ceremony or whatever.Even if nothing is done to observe the event , the boy is still called a "Bar Mitzvah", because the age of 13 is when you are required to start following commandments.So, even if you were never "Bar Mitzvahed", you are still "Bar Mitzvahed"![/b] I was taught differently. However, I will certainly defer to your obviously deeper education here. Nonetheless, perhaps the fact that the way that I was taught to be Jewish is so different from your education may reinforce my point that there are Jews around the world who may not share your way of looking at things. [b]Anyway guys, how the hell does a recording forum turn into Sunday school - I don't know! But I thought you might find it interesting to know that there are Rabbi/musician/engineers out there. [/b] Definitely. As I said above, I would really enjoy hearing some of your music! Good luck in your studies! dB This message has been edited by Dave Bryce on 09-23-2001 at 10:27 PM

[fantasticsound]

[quote]Originally posted by NKF: [b]fantasticsound wrote: >>>You, mein freund, need to take a l-i-t-t-l-e time-out. (As I'd say to my 2 year old.)<<< You didn't outgrow this level of polemic when you left elementary school? Should I call you 'Daddy' now?[/b][/quote] You dish out sarcasm right after claiming I'm trite for writing some myself. You must be Jewish, with that much Chutzpah! [quote][b]>>>Yet somehow, there is a large body of evidence to suggest that prayer has a profound effect on healing.<<< Maybe, but this comes after the effect of weakening mental health the whole lifetime of believers. Of course somebody who not experienced a life without religion never knows how liberating that is.[/b][/quote] What weakening mental health? Explain this, doctor Freud. You mean like the weakening caused by believing in nothing. [i]Of course somebody who has not experienced a life with religeon never knows how liberating that is.[/i] Funny how a line like that will bite you in the butt. You can't prove or disprove God, and you'll never know the life of a believer anymore than we could know your life. We're not claiming to know you, nor did ANYONE here dismiss you for your right NOT to believe. [quote][b]>>>Let's heal the world through prayer. Let me clarify. Prayer does not solve the problems of the world, it gives us strength and confidence to carry out the steps towards world peace.<<< Good that we aggree in one goal: world peace. But 'world' is a world of human interests, aggressions, profit making, 'terrorism' etc. To pray is not to act - it's staying in a hamster wheel. All Religions are assuming a kind of 'truth' which is at least intellectual totalitarism.[/quote][/b] You dismiss what you don't understand, and despite the point of my explanation of [i]real, quantifiable[/i] benefits of prayer, you claim it is not acting. You obviously fell back on atheist-dogma, that anything involving the word prayer means non-action. I already explained that prayer, used properly (in my opinion, and that of some Jewish scholars), is not a solution to the worlds problems, it is a way of gathering strength as we tackle the specifics. Mourning is by definition, an intangible gathering of strength after someone's death. There are tangible benefits to being in the presence of others who are in pain after a loss such as this. A kung-fu student gathers his strength through meditation. The "gathering" of chi, personal power, is completely intangible, but it's benefits in action, are anything but. Even the roar of a crowd at a football game builds untapped strength in players on the field. (Or don't you believe in home-field advantage, either?) But enlightened you have no personal power, right? You don't prepare yourself mentally for anything, correct? Of course you do. Every form of meditation, "psyching ourselves up", and mental discipline analagous to prayer. You don't have to believe in god to channel your strength. But please, take your condecending manner someplace else. Not because you're speaking out against religeon. Not 'cause the [i]man[/i] is knocking you down. Because you claim the faithful HERE are trying to push you out for non-belief, when it is you, and only you, who has dismissed the beliefs of others. If I was as arrogant and self absorbed as you are, I'd walk around all day pitying the Christians, Hindus, Muslims, Native Americans, and athiests. I don't. I don't claim to have all the answers. I do believe in God. And I find it hard to believe God is going to strike down everyone but Jews if a judgement day arrives. The sad fact is you alone, in this post, are the only one who has voiced anything that those of different beliefs are automitons with no sense to live free of the "shackles" of religeon. [b] [quote]>>>insulting the faithful is certainly a step backwards in this process<<< here we feel this above mentioned totalitarism ... not to believe and express it is seen as an insult. We had all this for centuries now ... It's just my right to express my disbelieve and talk about religion as historical formations that were always connected to oppressing people - it is and was the favourite 'remote control' of people in power in many countries. To give religion an aura of something been outside of human history/society but functioning as a massive power in politics is the old trick. People who named and described this in the past were simply burned to ashes.[/b][/quote] Uh.. note to NTK.. You were not asked to believe. You were not chastised for non-belief at all. Re-read my statement without your athiest-dogma glasses on. I only pointed out that insulting (and yes, when you call people "naive" for their faith in God, that is certainly insulting.) you lose a lot of credibility, even if you are absolutely right. Once again, you can't prove your point of view any more than I can prove mine. But you are the naive one for expecting anyone to listen as you attack them at such a basic belief. Especially when the original post was a simple call to bring us TOGETHER. The only reason he mentioned Rosh Hoshana at all is because Jews are supposed to reflect on the good and bad things we've done in the past year, before Yom Kippur. Not for guilt, but so that we may make amends, first and foremost, to those people we've harmed. Of course, you were waiting for a chance to say, "Whoh are we, the p-o-o-r little athiests.. we get burned at the stake for non-belief." Well, one thing I can say with a lot of historical evidence to back me up. Athiests have no corner on the market of dying for their beliefs. Nor do we, but try studying the history of the Jews. Thrown out of, or hunted down from, just about every country in the world, including this one. So here's a tiny violin for you. I'll point out again; [i]No one here has dismissed your right to believe in no God.[/i] [quote][b]and BTW.: people can reply with humor like AmadMozart: >>>Thank you, and God bless you, Nirto<<< This is something I like - at least it shows some tolerance. Nirto Karsten Fischer[/b][/quote] I wished you a Happy New Year, despite your attacks and you say I don't show tolerance? You're living in your own dream world. I know you can't get facial expressions or telling melodies of someone's voice from posts, but at least read what's there, not what you want to see there. I apologize for the sarcasm. I want to connect with people of differing beliefs. It hurts my heart that you would attack someone who made himself vulnerable in this forum, because you couldn't see past his religeon and share his good sentiments for the world, or just leave it alone. What would it have hurt for you to just allowed us to share our strength, unaccosted? ------------------ Neil [b]Reality[/b]: [i]A few moments of lucidity surrounded by insanity.[/i]