The diminished chord in Wave

[Reezekeys]

Listen to some of the first recordings of Jobim tunes, expecially the ones done by João Gilberto. The harmony is very different from what most play today.

 

Years ago I was at the Zinc bar in NYC listening to some of the heavy hitters on the NY Braz music scene (many who've moved back to Brazil) play Girl From Ipanena with the hippest chord changes I ever heard on that tune (which let's face it is considered muzak by most gringos!). I quickly got out my palm pilot and stylus (I said it was years ago!) and transcribed the chords while they played. The next day I looked at the transcription. It was the stock changes except the first bar of the B section and the first bar of the last A were the relative minors - i.e. (in the key of F) they played Ebmin7 for the first bar of the B section (instead of Gb MAJ7) , and Dmin7 for the first bar of the last A (instead of F MAJ7). It totally transformed the tune (in my opinion anyway). Try it!

[dazzjazz]

I don’t appreciate the tone of most of the replies to my OP.
There’s mostly been a negative, critical response to my original post. No-one has said  ‘hey, I checked out your idea and I think it sounds…” either good or bad. Most have sought to school me on things I’m already well versed in. 
 

It could have been a good discussion but it’s just been a bummer. Oh well. 
 

 

[ProfD]

56 minutes ago, dazzjazz said:

I don’t appreciate the tone of most of the replies to my OP.
There’s mostly been a negative, critical response to my original post. 

 

It could have been a good discussion but it’s just been a bummer. Oh well. 

I certainly didn't intend to turn your thread upside-down. Pardon any derail on my part.😎

[AROIOS]

2 hours ago, jarrell said:

......the Chuck Sher Real Book...dazzjazz probably meant the B or bridge section, where the last four chords before the return of the A section are Gm7 Ebm6 G7 and C7b9.

Thanks for the clarification, I've always remembered the song in E.

The last three chords are simply a chromatic walk down to Imaj7: VIIbm6 - VIm6 - VIbm6 - Imaj7, although there's nothing criminal with the Realbook marking the last two chords as a 2-5-1 (II7 - V7b9 - Imaj7).

As for Eb melodic minor not doing it for dazzjazz on the Ebm6, let's not forget that the 7th note of Eb mel. minor is not played in Ebm6, that makes good ole Ab mixolydian a perfect candidate for Ebm6, as well as G mixo and Gb mixo for the last two chords, respectively.

[Jazz+]

I appreciate your initial post, dazzjazz. I wasn't trying to school you with my post, but rather share some general information for members who may not be especially familiar with Barry Harris's teachings.

 

Off-topic: By the way, on 'The Girl From Ipanema,' I sometimes like to play D-11 in bars 3 and 4 instead of G7. It gives a different feeling on solo piano. Playing Eb-7 instead of Gb Maj7 at the top of the bridge is excellent, IMO.

[AROIOS]

2 hours ago, dazzjazz said:

I don’t appreciate the tone of most of the replies to my OP.
There’s mostly been a negative, critical response to my original post. No-one has said  ‘hey, I checked out your idea and I think it sounds…” either good or bad. Most have sought to school me on things I’m already well versed in. 
 

It could have been a good discussion but it’s just been a bummer. Oh well.

No one is questioning your credentials or tastes, brother, folks here are the most down to earth when it comes to theory discussions.

Maybe some sound samples of your discoveries would help. It's hard for others to engage or relate when pretty much all they have is "dude, dig this, 6th dim scale is the sh*t!"

[AROIOS]

4 hours ago, Reezekeys said:

...they played Ebmin7 for the first bar of the B section (instead of Gb MAJ7) ...

We can even use that same chord shape for the entire first 4 bars in the B section. It's a sound Eliane Elias uses frequently, I absolutely love it.
 

[Reezekeys]

1 hour ago, AROIOS said:

We can even use that same chord shape for the entire first 4 bars in the B section. It's a sound Eliane Elias uses frequently, I absolutely love it.

 

Nice! Dig this arrangement and reharm of GFI. Otmaro takes it pretty far away from the original changes:

 

 

[AROIOS]

50 minutes ago, Reezekeys said:

 

Nice! Dig this arrangement and reharm of GFI. Otmaro takes it pretty far away from the original changes:

 

 

Glad you liked it, and thanks for sharing this tasty reharm, I'm stealing a few tricks from Otmaro on this one.

[AROIOS]

19 hours ago, Jazz+ said:

...on 'The Girl From Ipanema,' I sometimes like to play D-11 in bars 3 and 4 instead of G7...

We can use that vim11 right from the 1st bar, makes for a perfect 2-5. (Edit: just noticed Reezekeys mentioned that trick already, great ears hear alike! 😃)

We can also replace the entire first 4 bars with a V69sus4 - V69 progression. It's great for a pre-chorus ramp for the B section. Throw in a tritone sub for the IIb7, and we have a tasty Afanasieff/Foster-ish Pop Jazz vibe.

 

 

[dazzjazz]

23 hours ago, Jazz+ said:

I appreciate your initial post, dazzjazz. I wasn't trying to school you with my post, but rather share some general information for members who may not be especially familiar with Barry Harris's teachings.

 

 

Your input was appreciated and valuable. Thanks.

[Jazz+]

OT:  reharmonization of "The Girl From Ipanema"

 

 

 

 

[Floyd Tatum]

5 hours ago, Jazz+ said:

OT:  reharmonization of "The Girl From Ipanema"

Nice chart, Jazz+.    There's one thing I'm not sure of -  just before the B section, there's a note that says  "2nd time 1+ 2 + + + + +"     What does that indicate? 

[Jazz+]

13 hours ago, Floyd Tatum said:

Nice chart, Jazz+.    There's one thing I'm not sure of -  just before the B section, there's a note that says  "2nd time 1+ 2 + + + + +"     What does that indicate? 

I think that's from my old study of Jao Gilberto's version and where he switches his pattern to playing the upbeats on his guitar like count "1 + 2 + + + + + etc "

[AROIOS]

21 hours ago, Jazz+ said:

OT:  reharmonization of "The Girl From Ipanema"

 

@Jazz+ I love your Abmaj7 - Gm11 - Gbmaj7 - Fm7 reharm. It gives the A section an R&B spin (the "Human Nature" progression discussed in another thread), and effectively transforms the A section to the key of Bb, which messes with my brain in a naughty and joyful way. Attached below is my interpretation of your reharm.
 

 

 

[Floyd Tatum]

11 hours ago, Jazz+ said:

I think that's from my old study of Jao Gilberto's version and where he switches his pattern to playing the upbeats on his guitar like count "1 + 2 + + + + + etc "

Nice   👍

[dazzjazz]

 

Here’s D major 6th diminished scale, aka D major bebop over Bbdim7.

You can hear it sounds very natural, with no ‘avoid’ notes. 

[Reezekeys]

8 hours ago, dazzjazz said:

Here’s D major 6th diminished scale, aka D major bebop over Bbdim7.

You can hear it sounds very natural, with no ‘avoid’ notes. 

 

I don't hear a difference between your notes and what's in a standard Bb diminished (half-whole) scale. Here's the scale by itself.

 

 

 

This is not directed at you specifically, dazzjazz. I just have questions, having learned the little theory I know from John Mehegan. He taught what I've always assumed was standard classical pedagogy, slightly expanded to accomodate the stylistic aspects of jazz. I'm guessing the "major 6th diminished scale"? and "D major bebop" scale are Barry Harris inventions, right? I'm curious why one might need a new scale and associated theory to dictate or suggest what notes sound good over a given chord. IMO, the standard Bb dim half-whole scale we all learn in basic theory class has as good a selection of note choices to play over this chord as one might want. Of course one can deviate from this - it's in the "how" and "why" we deviate that makes for interesting jazz. I let my ear lead me in my deviating (which admittedly can make for some less-than-stellar sounding improvs at times! 🙂 ). I don't want to rain on anyone's parade if they like trying different scales, if that opens your ear up to more possibilities that's great. I was exposed to George Russell's Lydian Chromatic Concept in college and found it to be gobbledygook - so maybe I'm just missing a chip in my brain for this stuff!

[AROIOS]

43 minutes ago, Reezekeys said:

...I was exposed to George Russell's Lydian Chromatic Concept in college and found it to be gobbledygook...

You are not alone.

[dazzjazz]

@ReezekeysThere’s a big difference in that the half-whole scale is missing the F#, the 3rd of the key centre of D. The 6th diminished and major bebop are not Barry Harris inventions. Like I said earlier, there are examples of its use throughout jazz history. They have existed for a very long time. A friend and I were playing and discussion an example from CPE Bach just yesterday. Chopin used them and Barry talks about this. 
 

long before I knew of their existence, I gravitated to the note choices they offer, without understanding why. They just sounded good, so I played them. Perhaps I got clues from the many transcriptions I done. 
 

Coming back to Wave, both first two chords can be built from the D major 6th diminished. There’s no need to think the Bbdim7 is an inversion of A7 or F#7, it’s a chord in its own right. The more I investigate these scales and their utility, it’s a reorientation of my thinking and viewpoint of the origins of western music. Many who have done the study I am doing feel the same way. It’s no wonder I got push back from some who haven’t begun this study. 
 

[Reezekeys]

3 hours ago, dazzjazz said:

There’s a big difference in that the half-whole scale is missing the F#, the 3rd of the key centre of D.

 

We're talking about the Bb dim7 half-whole scale? Unless I'm doing something wrong, there does seems to be an F# in this scale:

I'm also wondering what the "key centre of D" has to do with what scale one might play over a Bb o7 chord. Is there some relationship I'm missing? Genuinely curious here.

[AROIOS]

 

5 hours ago, dazzjazz said:

...There’s a big difference in that the half-whole scale is missing the F#...

But you literally just played over that Bbdim7 chord a Bb whole-half diminished scale, which does include F#.

Maybe your beef with the diminished scale stemmed from the choice between whole-half vs. half-whole versions?
 

5 hours ago, dazzjazz said:

...Coming back to Wave, both first two chords can be built from the D major 6th diminished. There’s no need to think the Bbdim7 is an inversion of A7 or F#7...

Sure, no law forces us to think of dim7 chords as 7b9 alternatives. But no law says they originated from 6th dim scale either. European Classical theory dealt with them way before Bebop came along.

As far as I can see/hear, it's all just good voice leading.

We can precede any given major triad with any of the three dim7 chords. The voice leading always works as you can hear below.
 

And since m7 chords can be viewed as relative minor version of major triads, we can also approach any give m7 chord with any of the three dim7 chords. This to me seems more like what's happening with the VIbdim7 - vm7 progression in "Wave".
 

BTW, one of the three dim7 chords will share the same root with the target major or m7 chord, resulting in weaker voice leading, that's why as I mentioned earlier, we usually approach them from a half-step above or below.
 

This angle to me is way simpler and more practical to understand and apply dim7 voice leading than the 6th dim mumbo-jumbo. But hey, I'm a big nerd too and can totally understand the fun of exploring hidden connections.
 

 

 

 

[AROIOS]

1 hour ago, AROIOS said:

...Maybe your beef with the diminished scale stemmed from the choice between whole-half vs. half-whole versions?...

@dazzjazz Thinking about it a bit more, this looks like the root cause of your grief with the diminished scale.

It seems the "bad" H-W scale you meant by "the half-whole scale is missing the F#", was built upon Ab.

That's not common practice. We usually apply W-H to the dim7 chords and H-W to their 7b9 alternatives.

In the case of "Wave" in the key of D, that would mean building the H-W scale from A (A7b9 being the dominant alternative of Bbdim7), which is equivalent to the Bb W-H scale you played in the video.

Hope that helps, it would also clear up the confusion both Reezekeys and I had over the "missing F#" you mentioned but then actually played.

[dazzjazz]

1 hour ago, Reezekeys said:

 

We're talking about the Bb dim7 half-whole scale? Unless I'm doing something wrong, there does seems to be an F# in this scale:

I'm also wondering what the "key centre of D" has to do with what scale one might play over a Bb o7 chord. Is there some relationship I'm missing? Genuinely curious here.

you have this backwards I.e.whole-half, whereas your post with the video you said the opposite. Does that clear it up?

[dazzjazz]

Actually you’re right, I messed up, playing Eb instead of D. Old habits die hard.  

the Eb, a non chord tone was in an upbeat, probably why I missed it. 

Here's the line:

 

and another that unlike the previous, encompassed the whole scale - even though the chord tones don't line up on the beat for the Bbdim, it sounds good!

If this line above is modified to be Bb whole-half, you'd get:

 

Both sound good, with the last sounding more exotic than the D6 diminished scale.

Personally, I find the D6 diminished scale sounds really pretty in this context over the Bbdim7. I like the utility of thinking one scale over two chords.

To my ears it's refreshing after playing Whole/half over the Bbdim for several years.

[Reezekeys]

And I did mis-state the scale initially as "half-whole" in my post with my video, though I corrected that in the mention below the video. WHOLE-HALF is what I meant and obviously what my notated example was.

 

I'm still confused about what a "D6 diminished scale" is. It's the "6" that baffles me. What does that refer to? How does a D6 chord relate to a diminished chord or scale? Have pity on me, my last theory lessons were 50 years ago! 🙂 

 

Thanks for those examples, I'm about to hit the sack so will dive into them tomorrow.

[dazzjazz]

Here's the D6 diminished scale. Think of it as D major plus a b6th. It contains the leading tone (C#) to the tonic, plus the leading tone (A#) to the relative minor (B).

 

Chords are generally thought of as every second note of the scale right? That means every chord is either a D6 or a diminished.

 

The most common way of using these is to think of each diminished as V7b9 i.e. A7b9 so the scale is harmonised either with a I chord or a V chord. Cool huh?

Barry Harris contends that all chords can be made from this scale and it's brother scale Dminor 6th diminished.

 

However, I believe that in the case of Wave, Jobim is treating the Bbdim7 as a chord in it's own right, not functioning as A7b9.

Yes, it's an academic argument. As both Dmaj7 and Bbdim7 belong to D6 diminished scale, you can improvise over them with that single scale.

 

So, you might ask, why Dmaj7 then? Barry talks about one chord 'borrowing' notes from the other.

So D6 'borrows' the C# from the diminished to become Dmaj7.

 

[AROIOS]

13 hours ago, dazzjazz said:

...and another that unlike the previous, encompassed the whole scale...

While the "6th dim scale" walk up does sound consonant as you mentioned, I'm not convinced it actually has much to do with the purported mojo of "6th dim". That A# note sounds just like a typical Bebop chromatic filler to me.
 

The sound sample below uses F as a filler to the same effect. It also sounds consonant, but I won't consider the reason being Bbdim7 belonging to some novel "D 3rd diminished scale". In fact, we can use any non-diatonic notes from D major scale as fillers in this context. Besides A# and F, Eb, Ab, C all work just fine, which could give us " D 2nd diminished", "D 5th diminished", "D 7th diminished"... But we only have the 6th dim., what gaping holes in Barry's world of harmony! 😃
 

At the risk of repeating myself, we don't have to force ourselves to view Bbdim7 via the lens of A7b9, but we don't have to deny the A mixolydian sound that makes D major scale work in this context either. That to my ears accounts for 99% of why we found D 6th dim consonant over Bbdim7.
 

If we were to go down the rabbit hole of incorporating chromatic filler notes into scales, I'm afraid we'll soon discover a magical "12 Tone Scale" that serves as the true source for all chords.

 

 

 

[CyberGene]

@AROIOS what’s that cheesy saxophone patch? 😀 It sounds really good for what it is though. I just can’t stand kennyG-ish sax but I’m still amazed at how well it approaches it for a synthesized sax. Typical saxophone patches in keyboards are much worse.

[AROIOS]

7 minutes ago, CyberGene said:

@AROIOS what’s that cheesy saxophone patch? 😀 It sounds really good for what it is though. I just can’t stand kennyG-ish sax but I’m still amazed at how well it approaches it for a synthesized sax. Typical saxophone patches in keyboards are much worse.

It's the "Sweet Soprano Sax" patch on Yamaha arranger boards. They absolutely nailed that Kenny G sound!