The diminished chord in Wave

[dazzjazz]

I was thinking recently about the Bbo7 chord in the 2nd bar of Jobim’s “Wave”. For years it’s bugged me - what is its source ? And what is its function? I’ve also been checking out a lot of Barry Harris stuff, especially the 6th Diminished scale, both major and minor. 
 

in D, the scale is:

 

D E F# G A A# B C# D
 

So this scale in D builds two chords, D6 and E diminished, which is also Bb diminished. 
so I was pleasantly surprised to find this scale sounds perfectly consonant over both the Dmaj7 and the Bbo7 chord - voila, problem solved. It sounds better to my ears than any of the two diminished scale choices (half-whole, whole-half). It does help if your improvised melody lines up chord tones in the beat.

 

In terms of function, I just think about it in terms of tension being resolved with the next chord, Amin7

 

Consider other Jobim tunes, such as Corcovado, they start in the same way, albeit in a minor key.
 

Amin6 to G#o7

 

Again, the 6th diminished scale sounds consonant over both chords. 

I will see myself out…
 

there’s also this old thread which is closed now.

 

[JamPro]

I have always understood that chords one uses to build a major Barry Harris flat 6th scale is the tonic (add 6), and a dominant V (add b9).  In the key of D, the notes of the tonic chord are D, F#, A, B, and the notes of the dominant V are C#, E, G, Bb - resulting in the scale D, E, F#, G, A, Bb, B, C#.

 

To build a minor Barry Harris flat 6th scale, use the tonic minor (add 6th), and a dominant V (add b9).

To build a dominant Barry Harris flat 6th scale use the tonic dominant (b7th with no 6th), and a dominant V (add b9).

And to build a minor seventh Barry Harris flat 6th scale, use a tonic minor seventh (b3, b7, no 6th), and a dominant V (add b9).

 

So when I look at the song Wave, I am not thinking Dmaj7 to Edim7, but rather Dmaj7 to A7(b9), ending with the Am7.  When soloing, I'll play a D major scale of the Dmaj7 chord, and something I am calling a "mixolydian minor" (tonic harmonic minor scale starting on the 5th degree (A) of the scale) over the A7(b9).

 

As always: your mileage may vary; some settling may occur during shipping; don't be scared, be prepared, etc.

 

Great tune btw.  Thanks for posting.

[John Tweed]

I’ve been playing this tune for a while but never actually thought about what I play over that chord, so I sat down and had a look - turns out I usually use a D harmonic major here. That ‘s a D major with the b6 instead of the natural 6 ie D E F# G A Bb C# D. I love the sound of that minor 3rd.

[TommyS]

Check out the Jazz Ranch........

[AROIOS]

22 hours ago, dazzjazz said:

I was thinking recently about the Bbo7 chord in the 2nd bar of Jobim’s “Wave”. For years it’s bugged me - what is its source ? And what is its function?

The "source" is A# diminished scale as you would expect. But D major scale works too because as JamPro mentioned, you can view A#dim7 as a substitute for A7b9. A7 comes from A mixolydian, which has the same notes as D major. And we don't need to over-complicate things by tracing A7b9 to A super locrian in this context. Let's just view it as A mixolydian with an accidental b9.
 

That b9 (A#, also 1 in A#dim7), is exactly the reason D 6th diminished scale worked for you. D 6th diminished is an alternative to D major scale, with some diminished flavor from the A# note. This is the same reason D harmonic major worked for John Tweed.
 

Function-wise, the A#dim7 is just good ole voice leading. Preceding a minor chord with a dim7 chord a half-step above or below is a common voice leading technique. The dim7 can often be replaced by a dominant variant, sometimes resulting in a tritone substitution for the "V" of the target minor chord.

[Al Quinn]

A practical approach is to experiment with the notes between the chord tones: Bb C# E G. Going scale wise from Bb to C# how does the B sound? How does the C sound? Decide for yourself if like one or both of these notes and get to know their musical effect. Invent melodies using the notes you like most. Do the same for notes between the other chord tones. I like this approach because it flushes out what I prefer; someone else may make other choices. As it turns out I most often find myself playing the diminished scale — whole, half beginning on Bb — over this chord in Wave. 

[dazzjazz]

So far everyone has missed my point. 

I'm highly experienced and trained in chord scale theory. I already know all the possibilities - I'm not a beginner.

My point is the major 6th diminished scale seems like THE source for these two chords as it sounds consonant.

From this viewpoint, the Bbdim7 is not a function of A7b9 - it's a stand-alone chord in its own right.

[AROIOS]

3 hours ago, dazzjazz said:

...I'm highly experienced and trained in chord scale theory...
 

...My point is the major 6th diminished scale seems like THE source for these two chords...

...the Bbdim7 is not a function of A7b9...

It looks like chord scale theory could be the very problem here. CST is only one way of looking at harmony. When the chord notes match several scales, obsessing over "THE source" only serves to limit our harmonic vision. The very fact that you find the canonical choice under CST for dim7 unsatisfactory, should be a good indicator of its constrains.

Speaking of the 6th dim scale, 1) V7b9 is often the angle with which people explain those 4 dim chords' function, especially how they naturally resolve to inversions of I6. I don't see the benefit of denying that connection ; 2) I'm actually curious how you would play the scale over the opening Dmaj9 without the A# sticking out like a sore thumb.

[dazzjazz]

The A# doesn’t stick out like a sore thumb if it’s played on an upbeat, which is standard bebop practice. 

[Al Quinn]

I guess I’m add odds with the concept of music theory ever being the “source” for music (at least tonal music). That concept implies to me that music creation is cerebral. From my perspective the sound and how it affects us emotionally is the “source” and theory is an after-the-fact explanation that is interesting but not necessary for creating music. That’s not to disparage anyone else’s perspective, but rather to elaborate on my initial reply.

[Al Quinn]

I know Barry Harris is usually associated with the bebop scale and his contributions as a performer and educator are incredible. But, I believe folks like Charlie Parker were the actual pioneers of this sound (e.g., the opening melody of Donna Lee by Parker is a good example).

[Jazz+]

I agree with dazzjazz. The B♭ diminished chord in "Wave" can be connected to the Barry Harris 6th diminished scale concept. Barry Harris's harmonic system involves using diminished chords as passing chords or to add harmonic richness.

In the Barry Harris method, the 6th diminished scale is essentially a major scale with a diminished 7th chord added between each chord tone and its 6th. This approach allows diminished chords, like the B♭ diminished, to function as a passing chord that connects the underlying chords more smoothly. In "Wave," the B♭ diminished chord can be seen as part of this concept, acting as a bridge between the surrounding chords, enhancing the harmonic flow.

[Reezekeys]

I'm not sure what the original question is - it seems to be asking "why the Bbo7"? IOW, is there a reason for it that can be explained by established music theory. This is how I'm interpreting it anyway - if I'm wrong I'm happy to be corrected.

To me it's kinda obvious - the Bbo7 happens to be the exact chord outlined by the melody –

Maybe Jobim came up with the melody first, then looked at the notes, saw that the phrase landed on an Amin, and decided he liked the sound of the Bbo7 going to Amin. Why does there have to be a "why" that's explainable in a theory book?

[ProfD]

7 hours ago, Al Quinn said:

From my perspective the sound and how it affects us emotionally is the “source” and theory is an after-the-fact explanation that is interesting but not necessary for creating music.

45 minutes ago, Reezekeys said:

Maybe Jobim came up with the melody first, then looked at the notes, saw that the phrase landed on an Amin, and decided he liked the sound of the Bbo7 going to Amin. Why does there have to be a "why" that's explainable in a theory book?

Music theory keeps music educators employed on a steady gig i.e. academia, books, workshops, lessons, etc.😁😎

[AROIOS]

2 hours ago, Jazz+ said:

...In the Barry Harris method, the 6th diminished scale is essentially a major scale with a diminished 7th chord added between each chord tone and its 6th. This approach allows diminished chords, like the B♭ diminished, to function as a passing chord that connects the underlying chords more smoothly...

But the D 6th dim scale angle only seems to fit the Dmaj9 - A#dim7 part. If A#dim7 really serves to connect chords in the context of "Waves", how would you apply 6th dim scale to the subsequent progression from A#dim7 to Am7, which is in D mixolydian?

[AROIOS]

59 minutes ago, Reezekeys said:

... the Bbo7 happens to be the exact chord outlined by the melody...

That's the first thing I noticed too, but I'll bet my money on it being the other way around: he wrote/revised the melody to fit the dim7 chord.

 

The essential note in the 2nd bar is only 4. The rest (#5, 7 and 2 from A#dim7, and 3 from D major) are just passing notes that can be changed freely depending on how we flavor the connection between Imaj9 and vm7.

 

[dazzjazz]

14 hours ago, Al Quinn said:

I know Barry Harris is usually associated with the bebop scale and his contributions as a performer and educator are incredible. But, I believe folks like Charlie Parker were the actual pioneers of this sound (e.g., the opening melody of Donna Lee by Parker is a good example).

That was actually written by Miles Davis but Parker got the credit. 

[John Tweed]

The 6 dim scale certainly works across both chords, but so far as the analysis side goes, the 2nd bar melody literally spells out an F#7b9 chord, which implies a V-I to Bm (relative minor, same key sig). That chord is skipped and instead modulates straight to G via a II-V-I. Ie Dma7, F#7b9, (Bm,) Am7, D7, Gma7.

 

A half-whole dim from F# works well over the F#7b9 too. That is the same dim that Al mentions above (whole-half from Bb).

[DaveMcM]

Many years ago, my cousin showed me how to stop curving the ball when bowling even though I was fairly accurate in knocking down the pins. Threw gutter balls ever since. It is for this reason that I refuse to analyze why I play what I play. If I start thinking about it, what will come out will be mechanical and predetermined and not spontaneous. I learned theory in school so it's in my head somewhere and I'm sure it sneaks into my playing, but I try to not remember it, kind of like algebra.

 

NOTE: Please take the above with multiple grains of salt. Mostly just being silly. It's fun to read various interpretations of chord structures, etc.

[ProfD]

2 hours ago, DaveMcM said:

 It is for this reason that I refuse to analyze why I play what I play. If I start thinking about it, what will come out will be mechanical and predetermined and not spontaneous. I learned theory in school so it's in my head somewhere and I'm sure it sneaks into my playing, but I try to not remember it, kind of like algebra.

 

NOTE: Please take the above with multiple grains of salt. Mostly just being silly. It's fun to read various interpretations of chord structures, etc.

All good because it's truth.

 

Theoretical analysis is cool when sitting around shooting the breeze ITRW or on a forum.😁

 

In my neighborhood, we do not discuss chords and scales during band rehearsals and/or gigs.  We just play.  It's all between the ears and muscle memory.

 

I'm slightly curious to know how this 50+ year old tune popped up on brotha @dazzjazz's radar.  Set-list addition maybe.🤣😎

[dazzjazz]

Wave is just one of those tunes I learned early, worked hard on etc. it gets called on gigs infrequently. Recently it’s become popular here again. I work at a fairly high level here in Sydney, and it’s interesting to hear what my friends and colleagues play on the Bbdim7. I’m often skeptical of the sound they make - usually they choose one of the diminished scales, which is an obvious choice. It sounds good and ‘out’ in various hands but often it seems to interrupt the flow of a good singable melody.

 

Like I said, I’ve been doing another layer of study of Barry Harris’ scales and the rich harmonic possibilities they provide. The more I get into these, the more they seem like they are the actual truth of western harmony and melody, and that our other major/minor scales are a simplification of those. All the big band arrangers of that era knew these scales intimately and wrote 4-part harmony based on them to create chordal movement.
 

If you consider the major 6th diminished scale, that scale contains not only the dominant chord of the key, but also the dominant chord of the relative minor. Both with flat 9s too! I understand all the options that others have posted here - they are legitimate solutions to impro challenges, but I was talking about the source of Jobim’s music. Trained composers seem to know about this stuff. Hell, I think Bach knew about this stuff. 
 

For anyone who has played a lot of Jobim tunes, you’ll know that he has amazing and unusual chord progressions. These can be difficult to navigate well as a soloist. However, if you go looking for instances of chords derived from the 6th diminished scales in Jobim’s tunes, you’ll unlock a lot of the mysteries of his tunes. The Ebmin6 that occurs in the second half of Desafinado is another example - the source scale is Gmin6 diminished scale.  it sounds more consonant than Eb melodic minor.

[Jazz+]

1 hour ago, dazzjazz said:

I’ve been doing another layer of study of Barry Harris’ scales and the rich harmonic possibilities they provide. The more I get into these, the more they seem like they are the actual truth of western harmony and melody, and that our other major/minor scales are a simplification of those. All the big band arrangers of that era knew these scales intimately and wrote 4-part harmony based on them to create chordal movement.
 

If you consider the major 6th diminished scale, that scale contains not only the dominant chord of the key, but also the dominant chord of the relative minor. Both with flat 9s too! I understand all the options that others have posted here - they are legitimate solutions to impro challenges, but I was talking about the source of Jobim’s music. Trained composers seem to know about this stuff. Hell, I think Bach knew about this stuff. 
 

For anyone who has played a lot of Jobim tunes, you’ll know that he has amazing and unusual chord progressions. These can be difficult to navigate well as a soloist. However, if you go looking for instances of chords derived from the 6th diminished scales in Jobim’s tunes, you’ll unlock a lot of the mysteries of his tunes. The Ebmin6 that occurs in the second half of Desafinado is another example - the source scale is Gmin6 diminished scale.  it sounds more consonant than Eb melodic minor.

 

I agree with "dazzjazz." 

 

I've spent 40 years teaching and studying Barry Harris's harmonic principles and lesser-known melodic principles for improvisation.

 

Barry Harris's "truth" refers to his fundamental principle that most chords can be understood as derived from either a major 6th or minor 6th chord. He believed that 6th chords, along with their related diminished chords, form the foundation of most harmonic structures in jazz. Harris also extended this thinking to various dominant scales, such as the Mixolydian Dominant scale.  Notably, Harris hated the term "bebop scale"; instead, he spoke about adding various half steps to different scales. This approach was also reflected in his lesser-known theories on line building (improvising melodies).

 

By understanding this "truth," musicians can simplify complex chord progressions.

[ProfD]

20 hours ago, dazzjazz said:

It sounds good and ‘out’ in various hands but often it seems to interrupt the flow of a good singable melody.

In a race to the bathroom, the scale/pattern olympics seems to overtake singable melodies.🤣

20 hours ago, Jazz+ said:

Barry Harris's "truth" refers to his fundamental principle...

I certainly hope that Barry Harris' estate is benefitting from his contribution to music education.😎

[CyberGene]

I'm not sure why there should be this notion, or even confrontation, of people who have active interest in music theory (especially in jazz) versus people who don't. We're all different, music is different and there's place for everybody. It's OK for some people to discuss theory, scales, etc. in what seems like "music algebra", and it's also OK for others to just rely on instincts, ear, practice, etc. What is not OK is to imply the latter is better than the former. For argument's sake, I find most styles where people rely more on ear than theory, to be rather boring for my taste.

 

I don't have anything to say here (although I usually participate in theory discussions and love it, just too tired lately at work) but I'm all with @dazzjazz If you don't like that people sometimes dig deep into what seems like math questions, then just skip it, no need to make any unnecessary conclusions, allusions and comparisons 🙂 Peace!

[ProfD]

27 minutes ago, CyberGene said:

I'm not sure why there should be this notion, or even confrontation, of people who have active interest in music theory (especially in jazz) versus people who don't. We're all different, music is different and there's place for everybody. It's OK for some people to discuss theory, scales, etc. in what seems like "music algebra", and it's also OK for others to just rely on instincts, ear, practice, etc. What is not OK is to imply the latter is better than the former.

 

If you don't like that people sometimes dig deep into what seems like math questions, then just skip it, no need to make any unnecessary conclusions, allusions and comparisons 🙂 Peace!

Despite the back and forth nature of these discussions, it's also constantly reinforced that there is a place for theoretical analysis. 

 

One of the major points is that no amount of theoretical analysis allows us to know the composer's intent when making melodic and harmonic choices.  We would have to ask that person if possible.😎

[dazzjazz]

My interest in music theory is only ever to make music easier to play, sound better and be more fun as a result. Otherwise, what would be the point? If it’s good enough for Barry Harris to think deeply about theory and spend his life putting it into practice, then I’d better pay attention too. 

[John Tweed]

Has anyone collected Harris’s thoughts and suggestions into a book explaining his fundamental ideas? Like George Russel’s Lydian Chromatic? You can find all these scales in there. The 5th mode of the Lydian Diminished (I think) corresponds to the Harmonic Major, and if you just add the flat 6 as well as the natural 6 then there’s your Barry Harris scale. I spent quite a while with that book many years ago, and picked up some neat things which are so far absorbed into my playing that I don’t really remember how they got there.

[AROIOS]

On 8/29/2024 at 1:57 PM, dazzjazz said:

...The Ebmin6 that occurs in the second half of Desafinado is another example - the source scale is Gmin6 diminished scale.  it sounds more consonant than Eb melodic minor.

That song has been played in all kinds of keys. Without specifying which key you're in, or the part of melody you're referring to, Ebm6 and Gm6 means nothing in isolation.

[AROIOS]

On 8/30/2024 at 12:28 PM, ProfD said:

...One of the major points is that no amount of theoretical analysis allows us to know the composer's intent when making melodic and harmonic choices.  We would have to ask that person if possible.😎

Yup, that's why trying to define "THE source", without actually consulting "the source", Jobim,  is likely a futile pursuit from the get-go.

Heck, even Jobim himself harmonizes the same melody differently all the time. He'll likely cringe at the idea that there was a definitive "source" for every single harmonic choice he made.

[jarrell]

23 minutes ago, AROIOS said:

That song has been played in all kinds of keys. Without specifying which key you're in, or the part of melody you're referring to, Ebm6 and Gm6 means nothing in isolation.

 

I think is is generally acknowledged the standard key is F - as it is in the old Real Book, the Chuck Sher Real Book, the Almir Chediak bossa nova book #2 (as well as every gig I've played it on). By the second half, dazzjazz probably meant the B or bridge section, where the last four chords before the return of the A section are Gm7 Ebm6 G7 and C7b9.