OT Band plays live but uses Ableton

[Docbop]

I know live vs playing with backing tracks is a hot topic around here.    I heard a lot of the Playback Engineers (fancy job title) who are ones feeding backing tracks to FOH use Ableton because of Ableton's focus on being used live they can make adjustments if necessary.   I heard somewhere Cirque du Soleil is using Ableton to control their whole shows music, lights, props, special effects.    I hear Cirque du Soleil has electronic music stands that display the charts and the charts can be updated in real time as necessary.   

 

This video is about a large band that plays everything live, but Ableton helps them for rehearsal tracks, charting tunes, demos, count ins, and other things.  

 

 

 

[Baldwin Funster]

Well I've thought about using midi tracks of bass and drums because of the difficulty of having band members that are reliable or aren't idiots. That's different than using keyboard tracks and a vocal choir of background vocals. But not much, and to try to justify what I think is valid vs what I think is too much sounds like a pretty weak argument. So I don't know. 

[ProfD]

Technology is wonderful. There's reasonable applications for it.

 

I still have a greater appreciation for musicians delivering high level performances while flying without a net.

 

I doubt Herbie Hancock used backing tracks at the 50th anniversary of The Headhunters.😎

[Stokely]

Not a fan, nuff said.  Our old bass player once brought in some karaoke tracks (his side business was making and selling them) when our drummer couldn't make practice.  Personally, just doing a semi-acoustic practice was more productive.  In fact, after doing a couple of those, I'm a big fan.  You could get a LOT done with the drummer on a bongo or cajon and everyone at low volume so you could talk through the changes and endings while you were playing.   I never saw the need to practice at "gig volume", just pick a more low-pressure gig if you have any and bring out the new tunes.

I'll never use them live, I'll hang it up first--unless it's some sequence-heavy 80s synth thing doing parts no human played in the first place.  Maybe synthetic drums in a duo. But we all have our hills to die on  

[kpl1228]

What I resent the most is any implication that if you lash out at people using tracks, you're a technological Philistine: a Luddite, old and out of touch with today's technology. These responses are usually defensive and stated by tracks-users.

I'm on board with all of the technology out there to aid musicians and bands. I try to keep on touch with the latest toys and the usage of them live....but tracks? Especially when it DRIVES the train, no way.

I'd also imagine much of the argument for-and-against is generational. My 60-year-old self may be wrong, but I can't imagine a lot of 25-year-old musicians rejecting tracks.

[Stokely]

Eh, people are welcome to call me a luddite   I'm a database programmer by day and 100% vst user by night, so that **** ain't really going to stick.

Some people think it's fake and cheating, some people don't.   I get that musicians making a living may not have the luxury to get up on that high horse even if they want to, but for me it's basically a hobby trying to break even so I have that luxury.   If our guitarist said, "guys, we can't get the good gigs without tracks" I'd wish him well and find something else, he's trying to make a living at music and has to do what he has to do.

[Docbop]

I find all the anti tracks stuff amusing.  Anyone around here long has heard me mention I crewed on a Yes tour back in 1975.    Yes, 1975 before computer anything. Back then Yes had Eddy Offord mixing them on the tour and three or four tape decks with backing tracks that were being controlled by FOH crewed and que'd in by Eddy.   So a band I know a lot of you love was using backing tracks almost 50 year ago and all by hand no computers.     

[Reezekeys]

20 hours ago, ProfD said:

I doubt Herbie Hancock used backing tracks at the 50th anniversary of The Headhunters.😎

 

I get the point, but obviously, that particular style of music was conceived and performed long before we had the tools we have today. Everything needed for the music was human-playable and I'm quite sure the budget for that 50th anniversary show allowed for enough humans on that stage to pull it off. They didn't need the "assistance" (that's a Buddy Rich bus tape reference in case anyone is wondering!) 🙂 

 

As we've been through ad nauseum here, the situations that dictate if and how much technological "assistance" is used can vary wildly. I would only criticize those that want to fool the audience into thinking they are the ones producing what's coming out of the PA - i.e., the mimers. Even those folks I would cut slack depending on the circumstances. Most people know (or should know) Frankie Valli is miming a lot on his gigs - they don't care, they just want to experience being in his presence and seeing him on a stage for his final tour. I once mimed a 4-hand classical music piece for a wedding ceremony when my bandleader was nervous about telling the client his choice of music was impractical. Adding additional sweetening to a band's sound (not duplicating instrumentation on stage), that's another deal - I would say it depends on what type of show it is. IMO, in the end it should be a creative decision based on the type of music, the presentation, venue, perhaps the availability of suitable musicians, and budget. Bottom line is that these tools are here and they're gonna get used - and probably abused as well! 🙂 

[Docbop]

Things have changed especially considering the age of most of us here.    Back in the day I remember when the band Bread made up of studio players.   Bread would play in concert and get criticized by critic and fan they sounded too much like their records. Back then when people went to a live concert they expected a different sound more energy.    Moving forward slowly concert became more about a show, but stages, props on stage,  video projection,  heading up to modern times and people want to hear the same thing they stream with a bunch of meat puppets in a choreographed show.  They want a live music videos.    Times change and people wants change.   

 

That is part of why I like Jazz so much real Jazz is a spontaneous performance nothing the same twice.  Jazz artist who get tired  and start "phoning it in" get criticized and by  their peers.  I don't like Jazz in big venues, the last one I went to was Diana Krall at the Hollywood Bowl.  All live, Clayton Hamilton Big Band, Anthony Wilson on guitar, Diana and it just didn't feel right.  Sure music was great but in that big space it lacked the something, maybe the interaction with the audience a small venue provides.    So times change and for me it made me more into Jazz and hung up my rock and roll shoes.

[Anderton]

There's also a halfway measure. On a Shania Twain tour I saw two MOTU DP setups (one mirrored), but they didn't play backing tracks. They changed presets for the players' rigs, altered levels, muted unused mics, etc. No player had to do a "footswitch dance" or be concerned with anything other than just playing. The only drawback compared to not having that level of control is there was no room for "hey, take a few more bars in your solo."

[ProfD]

1 hour ago, Reezekeys said:

As we've been through ad nauseum here, the situations that dictate if and how much technological "assistance" is used can vary wildly.

 

I would say it depends on what type of show it is. IMO, in the end it should be a creative decision based on the type of music, the presentation, venue, perhaps the availability of suitable musicians, and budget. Bottom line is that these tools are here and they're gonna get used - and probably abused as well! 🙂 

All true.  I'm certainly not begrudging how artists and musicians choose to run their programs. 

 

I just appreciate the fact that there's alternatives before HAL and AI completely take over live performance.🤣😎

[jarrell]

2 hours ago, Docbop said:

I find all the anti tracks stuff amusing.  Anyone around here long has heard me mention I crewed on a Yes tour back in 1975.    Yes, 1975 before computer anything. Back then Yes had Eddy Offord mixing them on the tour and three or four tape decks with backing tracks that were being controlled by FOH crewed and que'd in by Eddy.   So a band I know a lot of you love was using backing tracks almost 50 year ago and all by hand no computers.     

Yes, I saw ELP (with opening act Mahavishnu Orchestra!) in January 1974, and on one piece Keith explained the recording of the song (Abaddon's Bolero) had lots of overdubs, so as he couldn't do all that live, they were going to use a multitrack tape deck to playback the tracks minus one, which he would play live. I remember thinking at the time, before they started, that playing a tape live on a tour was kind of risky - speed variance, tape breaking, etc. - but the song came off without an incident. Of course contemporary classical music has been using tape music (either totally or in conjunction with live players) since at least the 1950's.

 

OT I also like the spontaneous nature of jazz in live performance - like a lot of things in life, you just had to be there. Ironically many classic jazz albums were live recordings, so what has become classic or definitive in jazz history is just what someone played that evening. OTOH most classic jazz studio albums were also recorded live, in that there were no overdubs, no punching in fixing things, and sometimes sight reading new compositions (i.e. "Giant Steps").

[Sean M. H.]

If nothing else, I hope this thread highlights the fact that the use of tracks is a contiuum--not a binary "uses tracks" or "doesn't use tracks"...in the gospel world where I spend a lot of my time, tracks are becoming almost ubiquitous for contemporary artists.  But, in this context, they are often used for locking the band to tempo, adding precussion elements, and implementing cues/count-ins...NOT necessarily for adding instruments/vocals that the musicians could instead be playing themselves (many/most of the best musicians I know play gospel--trust me, they don't need to use tracks as a "crutch").

 

I thought Stokely's response above was particularly interesting.  After coming across as rigidly anti-tracks for most of his post, he then ended it with: unless...

...and that's the whole deal.  We all have our own personal "unless"...so it seems kinda silly and self-important of me to have a strong objection to where another musician chooses to draw that line!

 

 

[kpl1228]

3 hours ago, Stokely said:

If our guitarist said, "guys, we can't get the good gigs without tracks" 

Is this a thing?

[Reezekeys]

It should be obvious that tracks don't work with a band playing material where the song arrangements aren't fixed and unchanged from night to night. That means a 16 bar solo is going to be 16 bars every time. There's no way to extend things if the soloist is having a great night and building a really nice solo that's lifting the music and putting a smile on the other band members' (and the audience's) faces - bar 16 has arrived, so, stop! In reality of course, a pro doing this gig would know to make their solo 16 bars and phrase it accordingly. Still, this makes the gig more of a "job" – which is fine, of course. I've done plenty of these show gigs, without tracks, where the arrangements were fixed in stone - but it's a fundamentally different experience than playing a gig where there's room to stretch out. I would be pretty unhappy if I didn't have those kinds of gigs to balance things.

[Docbop]

3 minutes ago, Reezekeys said:

It should be obvious that tracks don't work with a band playing material where the song arrangements aren't fixed and unchanged from night to night. That means a 16 bar solo is going to be 16 bars every time. There's no way to extend things if the soloist is having a great night and building a really nice solo that's lifting the music and putting a smile on the other band members' (and the audience's) faces - bar 16 has arrived, so, stop! In reality of course, a pro doing this gig would know to make their solo 16 bars and phrase it accordingly. Still, this makes the gig more of a "job" – which is fine, of course. I've done plenty of these show gigs, without tracks, where the arrangements were fixed in stone - but it's a fundamentally different experience than playing a gig where there's room to stretch out. I would be pretty unhappy if I didn't have those kinds of gigs to balance things.

Ableton Live could handle that if the tracks were recorded to be pieces together at runtime.   The is why it name is  Live and why playback engineers, DJs, and EDM artist use Live a lot. 

[Reezekeys]

32 minutes ago, Docbop said:

Ableton Live could handle that if the tracks were recorded to be pieces together at runtime.   The is why it name is  Live and why playback engineers, DJs, and EDM artist use Live a lot. 

 

How does it work if the band is playing at a slightly different tempo than the tracks were recorded at? I assume Live does real-time stretching or shrinking of a clip, but someone would have to tap in the current tempo, correct? (You can tell I have zero knowledge of this app!).

[NewImprov]

32 minutes ago, Docbop said:

Ableton Live could handle that if the tracks were recorded to be pieces together at runtime.   The is why it name is  Live and why playback engineers, DJs, and EDM artist use Live a lot. 

15 years ago, I played bass in a band that did exactly that. I had a PC laptop running Live, and a pedalboard that sent midi to trigger clips, click going to the drummers headphones. It was a very improvisational band, this way, we could stretch solos, etc, and still be in sync to the tracks. It really kept me on my toes, so to speak.

 

I also ran sound for a neo-soul singer from Brooklyn once, who had a killer band, keys, guitar, drums, all gospel players. They used tracks for the body of the tunes, but they would kill the tracks and stretch out on the ends of the tunes, with the keys player doing LH bass, it worked really well.

[NewImprov]

3 minutes ago, Reezekeys said:

 

How does it work if the band is playing at a slightly different tempo than the tracks were recorded at? I assume Live does real-time stretching or shrinking of a clip, but someone would have to tap in the current tempo, correct? (You can tell I have zero knowledge of this app!).

We would use Live as the master clock, with a click going to the drummer, so Live set the tempo. I remember Pat Metheny talking about using the Synclavier to play sequences onstage, he said it was like having a band member who had fantastic time, could play anything you asked, but couldn't improvise and didn't listen very well.

[rogs]

I have a friend who plays guitar and sings, on his own -  no band. For many years he has refused to use backing tracks, but more recently has realised that it helps to expand his options, and is happy to use some backing tracks  - most of which I make for him. (He's happier that someone he knows actually played the tracks for real !)

 

One comment someone made to him - and may well be true? - is that if a solo guitarist / singer  uses backing tracks, folk will accept that. They can see him playing the guitar.

 

If he was a solo keyboard/singer, many people will automatically assume the the keyboard is 'doing all the work', and that there is probably very little being played at all!

Very unfair of course in many cases, but among the non-playing punters, these modern keyboards 'do it all for you' ! 

[Reezekeys]

58 minutes ago, NewImprov said:

We would use Live as the master clock, with a click going to the drummer, so Live set the tempo.

 

Got it, thanks! Sounds like a good way to change or extend parts of a song. Who was in charge of launching the clips at the right times? Did they get extra money? 🙂 

[stoken6]

10 hours ago, Reezekeys said:

 

Got it, thanks! Sounds like a good way to change or extend parts of a song. Who was in charge of launching the clips at the right times? Did they get extra money? 🙂 

Was thinking the same thing. If a "playback engineer" is this clued-in to the performance, they are ("almost") a full band member. 

 

Didn't Madonna tour sometime ago with a kind of hybrid outfit where the band were playing live, but fed into a DJ/mixer console where a producer/DJ type could mute/FX individual musician's (live) tracks?

 

Cheers, Mike.

[GovernorSilver]

Thread has wandered quite a bit off the OP's topic but I thought Daniel Lanois' rig was pretty interesting.   When I saw him play, he played a lap steel and guitar in real time, yet he also had a rig for playing back stems from his DAW

 

https://www.premierguitar.com/gear/rig-rundown-daniel-lanois

[NewImprov]

14 hours ago, Reezekeys said:

 

Got it, thanks! Sounds like a good way to change or extend parts of a song. Who was in charge of launching the clips at the right times? Did they get extra money? 🙂 

Me, and nope! I used a Behringer foot controller, mainly sending midi notes, to trigger scenes and clips. It was a pretty improvisational band, but I had to be on my toes, so to speak, to catch cues.

[Tusker]

One of my life's ambitions is to get better at improvising with clips and sequences, but not with tracks.

 

What's the difference? The word "track" suggests a horizontal view, a layer of sound. The word clip suggests a vertical view, a snippet of sound. Depending on how they are used, sequences could be either or both. Snippets (clips) are tricky. They have to start and stop aesthetically, while moving the drama of the music forward. They are bulkier than notes, (the most typical unit of improvisation) and their bulk can create problems.

 

In some ideal future world, I would like to sample an instrumental performance in real time (say a saxophone phrase), convert it to a clip, then improvise by re-pitching it and re-shaping it. Meanwhile in my not-yet ideal world, I often use my keyboard's own timbre to imitate that sax, or to comment on what was said, or to trade fours and twos. Ideally all of these musical behaviors would be doable with notes, and also with their bulkier cousins: clips. Why not?

[Reezekeys]

1 hour ago, NewImprov said:

I used a Behringer foot controller, mainly sending midi notes, to trigger scenes and clips.

 

OK, last Q (we hope!): did you have to be careful to trigger these clips on exact beat boundaries? IOW, you had to listen to the drummer and nail the downbeats exactly when you pressed the midi note for the clip.

 

I remember Spectrasonic's Stylus RMX had a feature where it could play a loop in time with the hosting DAW's clock, and you could trigger a different loop a little in advance - it would not start until the next bar boundary was reached. That made life a lot easier on a gig!

[Sean M. H.]

20 minutes ago, Reezekeys said:

 

OK, last Q (we hope!): did you have to be careful to trigger these clips on exact beat boundaries? IOW, you had to listen to the drummer and nail the downbeats exactly when you pressed the midi note for the clip.

 

I remember Spectrasonic's Stylus RMX had a feature where it could play a loop in time with the hosting DAW's clock, and you could trigger a different loop a little in advance - it would not start until the next bar boundary was reached. That made life a lot easier on a gig!

 

 

Ableton--IIRC--will execute the trigger at the start of the next bar...so you don't have to be crazy precise.  As long as you trigger the next part somewhere within the preceding measure, you're good.

[NewImprov]

4 hours ago, Reezekeys said:

 

OK, last Q (we hope!): did you have to be careful to trigger these clips on exact beat boundaries? IOW, you had to listen to the drummer and nail the downbeats exactly when you pressed the midi note for the clip.

 

Generally, once Ableton had started to play, if you hit the trigger anywhere in the bar beforehand, it would trigger the clips/scenes on the next downbeat. But we had one tune that was in 13 that had a 4-beat break that occured twice in the tune. At the time., Ableton didn't support changing time-signatures, so I had to stop playback, count 4 beats and re-trigger right on the downbeat. That could get hairy. Also, we had tunes where we started the tune without tracks, and the tracks would come in partway through the tune, I'd tap in tempo as we went to fine-tune the tempo to where we were that night before starting.

 

This was 2006-2012. I'm sure Ableton has gotten better for this kind of stuff since, but it worked surprisingly well and reliably at the time.