Has the roll of the drummer changed?

[RABid]

As an old school drummer I covered several rolls. Control the tempo. Lay down a grove to make people dance. Signal changes such as "it is time to end the guitar solo." It seems like that has changed.

 

A month ago I subbed as drummer at church. The song leader was on vacation and the songs were of typical modern structure. Start off with the singer and piano or guitar. Gradually build the song. Come in with drums after a verse of two. A structure more and more common in songs, and not just gospel. The 5 singers were struggling. Everyone was. They were all used to locking on to the song leader. He has a strong voice, good timing, and is usually the center of the production. One of the singers looked at me and said "we need you to start playing at the beginning of the songs so that we have something to lock on to." I did what they asked and resorted to the old way, knowing that now I was doing my thing, but covering for the song leader because it is now his thing. So what is my thing now as a drummer?

 

Today I played again. All of my instructions from the song director were about dynamics. "Drop down really soft in the third verse, then really punch it in the turn around." That has always been the type of directions I get when practicing with the church band. After service I was wondering if this was only a gospel thing so I started listening to other genres. Modern pop, country, even electronic. The first electronic song I listened to started out with some bleeps and bloops, tied together with echo and other effects to build a slamming rhythm. Drums came in and out to enhance dynamics. 

 

It seems to be a common theme. Bands do not record everything at once, listening to the drummer for temp and groove. Everything is done with copy and past, small loops, a click track when needed. It is a new way of making music and the roll of drums have changed.

 

Has anyone else noticed this? Am I delusional? Or maybe late to the party? Has the roll of the drummer changed? Did it change long ago without me noticing?

[Stokely]

I've only done recording as a hobbyist starting in the late 80s, but almost everything I've done was to a click back then and now.  Certainly that is my preference as it makes all sorts of things easier (adding/editing midi tracks, syncing delay and reverb time and so on).

These days I gather that people go in and move individual drum hits/bass notes/etc around after the fact.  Certainly that has always been possible with midi sequencing and later with software instruments, but I'm talking about audio recordings.  I don't know how common it is, but if you hear something too precise it probably is  

As far as live goes, we thankfully aren't on a click and don't run tracks (and I never will).  So in that respect we are old school and the drummer has the same old role as you are remembering (though to be fair our new drummer is still getting up to speed on our material so we "nudge" him if tempos aren't quite right!)

[Anderton]

I haven't been able to play with a real drummer in quite some time, and I miss it. What I miss most is how drummers can make the song breathe by how they alter the tempo. I keyed into that more than into cues regarding arrangements.

 

Fortunately I found a semi-workaround for this. I record to a click, but after the song is mixed, I take the two-track, load it into a DAW, and program tempo variations. Granted, programming variations isn't as organic as following a drummer. But my Dad was a jazz drummer, and I learned a hell of a lot from him about how drummers think, and how they massage the tempo.

 

I also did some research and noticed that tempo changes are FAR from random. In fact, with good drummers, they're quite precise. If you want the see some examples, I included tempo maps for some popular songs in this article.

 

But to return to the OP, the drummer is the heartbeat of the machine. Whether you're getting explicit cues or not, just watching the drummer is sometimes all the cues you really need.

[Notes_Norton]

My primary instrument is saxophone, but my first instrument is drums. I also play flute, wind synth, bass, guitar, keyboard synth, and voice.

 

Many years ago, I played in a band in which the drummer was a good singer. Much to our mutual delight, I could play the drums while he got up front and sang. I also switched to bass and rhythm guitar in that band when there was no place for a saxophone.

 

Times change, venues downsize, places that once hired 4 or 5-piece bands now hire singles and duos. At first the duos were drummer plus either guitar or keyboard, but in time, the drummer got replaced by samples.

 

I'm in a duo, and I make my own backing tracks. I start by laying down a drum track, then bass, then the other instruments, saving the most fun parts for us to play live, on the gig. I'd rather play in a larger band, but nobody wants to pay for that around here. A four-piece band doesn't make much more than a duo, and the split goes 4 ways.

 

I know a lot of people do it successfully, but I don't like slice and dice song editing. I play from start to finish, laying track on track. Since I record in MIDI, I can edit a wrong note here and there or a flubbed drum roll, but they are mostly a single take from start to finish. 

 

Whether I'm playing the drums or not, the role of the drummer is to set the tempo, change it when necessary, establish the groove, and enhance the song with tasty fills, dynamics, and accents.

 

I've never played in a 'church band' so I really don't know what the rules are there.

 

Notes ♫

 

 

[ProfD]

The role of the drummer hasn't really changed especially in live performance.

 

The way music is produced and recorded has changed. Some of those elements are being introduced into how the music is performed.

 

Drummers playing modern styles of music are using click tracks, electronic drum pads, MPCs or laptops to keep the groove.

 

I still prefer the old school (organic) approach to playing music. I use real musicians. No click tracks.

 

Drummer count it off and we fly without a net. The music breathes and grooves better.😎

[Notes_Norton]

2 hours ago, ProfD said:

I still prefer the old school (organic) approach to playing music. I use real musicians. No click tracks.

 

I prefer all real musicians too, but I also like to make the mortgage payments, which is what a duo did for me.

 

My compromise is to make the backing tracks myself. I started on drums, my primary instrument is sax/wind-synthesizer, but I also play bass, guitar, and keyboard synths. On stage, we both sing, my duo partner plays guitar or synth, and I play sax, flute, wind synth, or guitar. When I make my tracks, I leave out the most fun parts to play live.

As the drummer, I don't think the role of the drummer in my situation has changed at all. Set the groove, keep the tempo (or change when appropriate), and use accents and fills to support the song and what the other musicians are doing.

 

The compromise is that all the musical ideas in the backing tracks are mine. There are no surprises by someone playing the bass, drums, or comp instrument making different choices. The arrangements and tempos are always the same, although for some songs, I have put together different versions for different situations.

 

The benefit is that there are no musician dynamics to deal with. You know, the one who doesn't like to practice, or gets to the gig late, drinks too much, or would rather chase a skirt than come back from break. And the big benefit is more money per gig. 

I make my living doing music and nothing but music. It's my business, and when you run a business, there are always compromises. I don't mind the compromises, because to me, the biggest compromise would be taking a wage slave job, waking up to an alarm 5 days per week, taking orders from some boss, and living for the weekends.

 

 

Insights and incites by Notes ♫
 

[ProfD]

4 hours ago, Notes_Norton said:

I prefer all real musicians too, but I also like to make the mortgage payments, which is what a duo did for me.

I make my living doing music and nothing but music. It's my business, and when you run a business, there are always compromises. 

Absolutely. One has to do whatever they can *afford* to do as long as it *works* for them. 

 

I have my preferences in playing and producing music but I do not begrudge how anyone chooses to roll their program.

 

Especially when it comes down to getting paid to do music  Do whatever it takes to make cornflakes.😎

[MathOfInsects]

On 7/21/2024 at 7:46 PM, RABid said:

Has the roll of the drummer changed? 

No, I think it’s still paradiddle-paradiddle. 

[Threadslayer]

2 minutes ago, MathOfInsects said:

On 7/21/2024 at 7:46 PM, RABid said:

Has the roll of the drummer changed? 

No, I think it’s still paradiddle-paradiddle. 

I knew it was only a matter of time... (no pun intended)

[KenElevenShadows]

It was only a matter of time for sure, haha!  

[AROIOS]

On 7/21/2024 at 7:46 PM, RABid said:

...Has the roll of the drummer changed? Did it change long ago without me noticing?

Yes, it happened in 1981.

Jokes aside, it heavily depends on genre, musical context and audience expectation.
 

 

[RABid]

On 7/24/2024 at 12:16 PM, MathOfInsects said:

No, I think it’s still paradiddle-paradiddle. 

I've been practicing paradiddlediddle. It makes a nice lead-in.

[RABid]

On 7/24/2024 at 3:15 PM, AROIOS said:

Yes, it happened in 1981.

Jokes aside, it heavily depends on genre, musical context and audience expectation.
 

 

I considered buying a Linn Drum. Procrastinated a couple years and then bought a much more affordable Sequential DrumTracks. We were covering a lot of Prince and it did great.

[AROIOS]

1 hour ago, RABid said:

...Sequential DrumTracks...covering a lot of Prince...

That's the E-Funk sound! along with LM-1 and DMX.

[ProfD]

30 minutes ago, AROIOS said:

That's the E-Funk sound! along with LM-1 and DMX.

Prince. Lady Cab Driver:

 

 

 

I rest my case.😁😎

[AROIOS]

3 hours ago, ProfD said:

Prince. Lady Cab Driver:
 

I rest my case.😁😎

That's a great song, it's criminally underplayed.

This one did it for me back in the day. Still remember the goosebumps first time I heard it.
 

 

[ProfD]

9 hours ago, AROIOS said:

This one did it for me back in the day. Still remember the goosebumps first time I heard it.

Prince played all of the instruments on that self-titled album.  He did that record prior to picking up his Linn and DMX drum machines which means he played the trap kit. D8mn. He was an ultra-bad mofo.😎

[AROIOS]

13 hours ago, ProfD said:

Prince played all of the instruments on that self-titled album.  He did that record prior to picking up his Linn and DMX drum machines which means he played the trap kit. D8mn. He was an ultra-bad mofo.😎

No doubt about it. He's the heart and soul of the Minneapolis Sound.

[Anderton]

He also came on the music scene when it needed a shot in the arm. The opening of the "Purple Rain" movie crushed it, I felt it conveyed to people who had never been on stage a taste of the experience. "Purple Rain" was the first DVD I bought.  

[Notes_Norton]

When making my backing tracks, I play all the parts, too.

I tried buying MIDI sequences in the early days, but I disagreed with them.

 

Often for live performance, the groove needs to be exaggerated. By playing the drums myself, I can do that.

 

Sometimes IMO the groove on the sequence was all wrong.

 

The sequence might get the chords wrong. It's easy to do if learning by ear, and some might think a substitution chord is better. I prefer to have the music, with the chords, and then I can decide what subs to make. Plus, by doing it myself, I know the chords used so when I improvise a solo, I have a better idea of the song's structure.

 

I was lucky enough to start on drums. It's nothing I would have invested the time into after I learned saxophone. But playing drums, bass, guitar, keys, and wind synth, gave me a better understanding of each instrument's role in the song, and allowed me to do it myself, the way I want to hear it.

 

I have a lot of respect for Prince, and it's a shame he left the stage too soon. There are a number of us out here who can do all the instruments, Paul McCartney comes to mind. Some do it better than others, but isn't that the way for just about everyting?

 

 

Notes ♫

[ProfD]

On 7/28/2024 at 9:39 AM, Notes_Norton said:

I have a lot of respect for Prince, and it's a shame he left the stage too soon.

In his 58 years, Prince produced a body of work.  He left it behind for future generations of artists and musicians to dig. 

 

Prince fulfilled his purpose on the planet.  Now, he's back among the stars.😎

[murphybridget]

On 7/28/2024 at 6:39 AM, Notes_Norton said:

When making my backing tracks, I play all the parts, too.

I tried buying MIDI sequences in the early days, but I disagreed with them.

 

Often for live performance, the groove needs to be exaggerated. By playing the drums myself, I can do that.

 

Sometimes IMO the groove on the sequence was all wrong.

 

The sequence might get the chords wrong. It's easy to do if learning by ear, and some might think a substitution chord is better. I prefer to have the music, with the chords, and then I can decide what subs to make. Plus, by doing it myself, I know the chords used so when I improvise a solo, I have a better idea of the song's structure.

 

I was lucky enough to start on drums. It's nothing I would have invested the time into after I learned saxophone. But playing drums, bass, guitar, keys, and wind synth, gave me a better understanding of each instrument's role in the song, and allowed me to do it myself, the way I want to hear it.

 

I have a lot of respect for Prince, and it's a shame he left the stage too soon. There are a number of us out here who can do all the instruments, Paul McCartney comes to mind. Some do it better than others, but isn't that the way for just about everyting?

 

 

Notes ♫

Learning multiple instruments really gives you a unique perspective on music. I’ve been focusing on guitar and a few other instruments, and it’s amazing how much it changes the way you approach songwriting and arranging.

[Notes_Norton]

1 hour ago, murphybridget said:

Learning multiple instruments really gives you a unique perspective on music. I’ve been focusing on guitar and a few other instruments, and it’s amazing how much it changes the way you approach songwriting and arranging.

Learning to play at least the fundamentals of different instruments gives you a better idea of how each instrument expresses itself, and what it needs to do to be part of the ensemble that it is a part of.

 

I'm so glad I learned drums first. I didn't do it on purpose, I wanted to play anything, and in the then little town of Pompano Beach, Florida, all the available school instruments were rented. All the new kids got a pair of drumsticks and a practice pad. I really wanted to play Euphonium, because it has a beautiful tone. 

 

Eventually, the sax player's family moved away, and the band director asked who wants to play the Tenor Saxophone. I was ready to play anything, so I guess I was more enthusiastic than the other drummers. I took to it well, skipped intermediate band and went to advanced. I also became first tenor sax in the all-state band every year. This was the luckiest thing that ever happened to me. If I learned Euphonium, I would be able to gig for a living.

 

I wanted to join the Air Force Band, but when my physical was scheduled, I just got over a bronchitis attack, and they gave me a 4F rating - unfit for service. So I went on the road in a rock band. Since every songwriter doesn't have the wisdom to include a sax in every song, the guitarist taught be barre chords on the guitar. The bass player was also a guitarist, so he showed me bass so that he could also play guitar. The drummer was a singer, so I would sit at his kit a few songs per night, so he could go up front and sing. We also had a little Farfisa organ, and we took turns playing it.

All that switching instruments was good showmanship, but it also taught me what each instrument's 'job' was in the combo. This helped my understanding of music arranging quite a bit. It's one thing to read and listen to what each person should be doing, and another to actually play the instruments and have experience doing it.

Another benefit is that I can make my own backing tracks. Other duos buy karaoke tracks. Not a bad idea but to me, they have a few drawbacks which I think I can improve on:

1. They are mixed for background music. On live performance the rhythm section is more prominent, I can play the bass a tad ahead or behind the kick drum depending on which I want to accent, and I can pump up the volume on the snare backbeat.
2. They have backing vocals which to me scream “They are using karaoke”. I can put the backing vocal parts on a synthesizer.
3. They are in record key, and can't be moved much without those nasty artifacts. Making my own, I can put it in the key the singer needs.
4. They have instrumental solos. I'm a solo hog, I don't want someone else playing the solo, I have a lot of fun improvising.
5. They are arranged like the record. I can rearrange, get to the hook sooner, extend it if it's a dance song, and do anything else.
6. I can also exaggerate the groove to add energy to the song.
7. I can save the most fun parts of the song for Mrs. Notes and I to play live, on stage.

The multi-instrument experience also allowed me to make aftermarket styles for Band-in-a-Box. I've sold them to musicians in over 100 countries in the world, and become semi-famous in the Band-in-a-Box world. It won't make me rich like Bezos, but it brings in enough as a sideline to keep me from having to travel out of state in the slow season. 

 

I've been making those backing tracks since the mid 1980s, and with experience, and constant learning, I've gotten a lot better at it, and learned a lot more about making music. 

 

Plus, it makes our duo completely self-reliant. Husband and wife, both singers (she is fantastic I'm adequate), but multi-instrumentalists, and we produce everything without the need to rely on anyone else. 

 

I encourage every musician to learn something different. If you are a guitarist, something without strings. If you are a keyboardist, something without the black and whites. And I think every musician in a pop group should learn drums.

 

 

Insights and inctes by Notes ♫

[Philbo King]

On 7/31/2024 at 8:34 AM, Notes_Norton said:

Learning to play at least the fundamentals of different instruments gives you a better idea of how each instrument expresses itself, and what it needs to do to be part of the ensemble that it is a part of.

 

I'm so glad I learned drums first. I didn't do it on purpose, I wanted to play anything, and in the then little town of Pompano Beach, Florida, all the available school instruments were rented. All the new kids got a pair of drumsticks and a practice pad. I really wanted to play Euphonium, because it has a beautiful tone. 

 

Eventually, the sax player's family moved away, and the band director asked who wants to play the Tenor Saxophone. I was ready to play anything, so I guess I was more enthusiastic than the other drummers. I took to it well, skipped intermediate band and went to advanced. I also became first tenor sax in the all-state band every year. This was the luckiest thing that ever happened to me. If I learned Euphonium, I would be able to gig for a living.

 

I wanted to join the Air Force Band, but when my physical was scheduled, I just got over a bronchitis attack, and they gave me a 4F rating - unfit for service. So I went on the road in a rock band. Since every songwriter doesn't have the wisdom to include a sax in every song, the guitarist taught be barre chords on the guitar. The bass player was also a guitarist, so he showed me bass so that he could also play guitar. The drummer was a singer, so I would sit at his kit a few songs per night, so he could go up front and sing. We also had a little Farfisa organ, and we took turns playing it.

All that switching instruments was good showmanship, but it also taught me what each instrument's 'job' was in the combo. This helped my understanding of music arranging quite a bit. It's one thing to read and listen to what each person should be doing, and another to actually play the instruments and have experience doing it.

Another benefit is that I can make my own backing tracks. Other duos buy karaoke tracks. Not a bad idea but to me, they have a few drawbacks which I think I can improve on:

1. They are mixed for background music. On live performance the rhythm section is more prominent, I can play the bass a tad ahead or behind the kick drum depending on which I want to accent, and I can pump up the volume on the snare backbeat.
2. They have backing vocals which to me scream “They are using karaoke”. I can put the backing vocal parts on a synthesizer.
3. They are in record key, and can't be moved much without those nasty artifacts. Making my own, I can put it in the key the singer needs.
4. They have instrumental solos. I'm a solo hog, I don't want someone else playing the solo, I have a lot of fun improvising.
5. They are arranged like the record. I can rearrange, get to the hook sooner, extend it if it's a dance song, and do anything else.
6. I can also exaggerate the groove to add energy to the song.
7. I can save the most fun parts of the song for Mrs. Notes and I to play live, on stage.

The multi-instrument experience also allowed me to make aftermarket styles for Band-in-a-Box. I've sold them to musicians in over 100 countries in the world, and become semi-famous in the Band-in-a-Box world. It won't make me rich like Bezos, but it brings in enough as a sideline to keep me from having to travel out of state in the slow season. 

 

I've been making those backing tracks since the mid 1980s, and with experience, and constant learning, I've gotten a lot better at it, and learned a lot more about making music. 

 

Plus, it makes our duo completely self-reliant. Husband and wife, both singers (she is fantastic I'm adequate), but multi-instrumentalists, and we produce everything without the need to rely on anyone else. 

 

I encourage every musician to learn something different. If you are a guitarist, something without strings. If you are a keyboardist, something without the black and whites. And I think every musician in a pop group should learn drums.

 

 

Insights and inctes by Notes ♫

I play all the parts on my most recent CD, except for the drums on one tune (it jumps from a 3/16 intro, to 5/4 verses, to 4/4 choruses, and back to 5/4 for a lead break, ending with 3/16 arpeggios over the 5/4 rythm track.)  I am not a great technical drummer, so I recruited David Borys (from Australia) to play on that one. 

 

Anyway, I have found, when recording, it is difficult to be 'great' on a lot of instruments at the same time. 

 

Guitar & bass,fine...  but add keyboards, drums,  percussion, and I sometimes hit 20 or 30 takes trying to 'tune' the part to the song.  A lot of times I'll do Rhodes, cello, and horn sections using one of my guitar synths because I find I can do better and more expressive parts using a guitar.

[Philbo King]

P.S. if anyone wants to hear this weird song, it's #9 on this list:

https://www.soundclick.com/philboking/?content=songs