New or used?

[GRollins]

A quick note:

Some of you may recall a thread I started a year or two ago wherein I received a "new" unit from Sweetwater that showed clear signs of having been retaped, etc., leading me to question whether the unit in question was, in fact, straight from the factory.

 

Well, it just happened again, this time with a Meinl HE-3200 purchased from Musician's Friend. (Sweetwater carries Meinl, but doesn't carry that particular series and I got a sale price from MF.) To make a long story short, the HE-3200 arrived with a couple of medium-sized dents and cuts in the (faux) leather covering.

 

Easy, peasy, Grey...shipping damage, right?

 

Not so fast, there, pardner...true, there was some damage to the box, but the damage to the box in no way matched the damage to the drum! Also, the box seemed to have been clumsily taped. Yes, maybe it left Meinl that way. Maybe. But that still doesn't explain the discrepancies between the damage to the drum and the damage to the box. For instance, to cut or gouge the leather covering would require a puncture through the cardboard box. There were no punctures, anywhere. You're not going to get a hole in the vinyl 'leather' by rubbing it against smooth cardboard. Oh, and there were no holes in the clear plastic shipping bag covering the unit. It wasn't even abraded.

 

Hmmm...

 

And the dents in the drum were up high, nearly to the top, whereas the damage to the box was towards the bottom, nearly a foot away (no corresponding damage to the drum anywhere nearby).

 

Folks, you know those easy returns that the retailers allow? Ever thought about what happens to the returned units? Ever pondered the math of how many units are returned compared to the paltry number that Sweetwater/Musician's Friend/et. al. sell as demo units?

 

Think about it. No...really...think about it.

 

I may or may not drop back in. This is sort of an addendum to that Sweetwater story. I suspect it happens more often than people wish to believe. The covering on the HE-3200 is black and the dents might pass a quick, careless inspection. The cuts in the vinyl tend to indicate to me that someone, somewhere (Meinl? MF?) just doesn't give a shit; they glanced at the drum and flagged it as ready to go.

 

Grey

 

PS: I finished that confusticated upstairs bathroom, rebuilt a Hafler amplifier, repaired a Hewlett Packard lab power supply, and am starting on the kitchen redo. When I'll get time for music, I do not know. I do know that I still have no patience for people who just want to argue. Screw 'em.

 

PPS: To those who have comparatively long hair--have you noticed an uptick in disparaging remarks related to long hair on guys? I've gotten more comments in the last six months than in the preceding twenty years combined. Certain segments of society are turning ugly.

[ProfD]

I've always believed those easy returns are 1) repackaged at the whim of retailer employees, 2) not always recorded as a returned item and 3) released back into the wild as a new item. 

 

It definitely helps to specify new when buying an item as such. Thoroughly inspect it. Even better if/when it can be opened in the store.

 

Otherwise, insure that sales receipt states new item. In the event item needs to be returned, paperwork reflects what should have been received.

 

The convenience of online shopping comes with the hassle of shipping, receiving and possibly returns.😎

[Baldwin Funster]

Maybe QC has gotten super rough.

Remember Super Dennis?

Or the Samsonite Gorilla? 

 

Ahhh I guess you got to be over 60 to get it.

[Still VanDerGraaf]

1 hour ago, ProfD said:

I've always believe those easy returns are 1) repackaged at the whim of retailer employees, 2) not always recorded as a returned item and 3) released back into the wild as a new item. 

Definitely this- I've had more than one "new" item that clearly isn't.

 

Maybe best to instantly reject something that obviously isn't new and organise a return.

[JoJoB3]

Used/open box

 

There's usually a return window.  Less for the landfills, more in your pocket.

 

If the used choices suck then look new.

[Stokely]

I lean toward new these days, been bitten a couple times on used stuff even with the 45-day return window from certain places.

I've had no used gear sold as new from SW or others, but I don't doubt that it happens as comments above state.

On one hand, mindblowing in 2024 that anyone would ever comment about someone's hair or anything else; on the other, definitely ugly vibes on the rise online and off so I guess I'm not too surprised.  If you don't fit the mold, I'd be pretty cautious these days.

[David Emm]

3 hours ago, Stokely said:

On one hand, mindblowing in 2024 that anyone would ever comment about someone's hair or anything else; on the other, definitely ugly vibes on the rise online and off so I guess I'm not too surprised.  If you don't fit the mold, I'd be pretty cautious these days.

 

Hair is not much of an issue these days. I just sit in the yard and enjoy the breeze rippling through my scalp. I like Spider Robinson's comment about his "leisure" time in a hammock being another opportunity to mentally graze for more meaningful work. Smart.

 

More to the OP's point, used is always risky, but not as much as many other ventures. I got my Korg 01Wfd used. It was in an SKB case, too. I got it for $1300 when new, it was closer to $3k. Aside from a disk drive replacement, it performed like a boss for 10 years. One quiet protection you get is that gear from the Big 3 is generally quite tough. Korg sold me two Tritons new based on that experience.

[RABid]

On the other side.

 

I just bought the Neumann HD-30 headphones to replace my 20+ year old Sennheiser HD600. I compaired the HD-30 (open back) and HD-20 (closed back) and chose the 30's. Then I started wishing for a 20's so I could play my Elektron gear while sitting in the same room as others without them having to listen. Snooping around the net I kept finding stories and good reviews about renewed Neumann HD-20's for $300 which is just over half price. People said they called to clarify the "renewed" and were told they are factory renewed from Neumann. All reviews were positive so I took a chance and ordered a set from Alto Music. They were not available at the Alto Music website, only repackaged there. Amazon and Ebay had them, sold by Alto Music, and I chose Ebay because they were $30 cheaper than Amazon. They arrived today in a factory sealed box, with the exact same thick clear wrap that was covering my HD-30 box. Opened them up and everything inside looked brand new. Even down to the blue plastic seal around the ends of the cables. Not a mark anywhere. No indication that these are anything but brand new, except for the price. $549 new, $299 refurbished. 

 

And the end of the story? (Sigh) If I had only waited a few days. Now Amazon has them as a Prime Deal for $266.66, $63 dollars cheaper than they were last week. It is a good deal if anyone wants to take the same chance that I took.

 

Neumann NDH 20 renewed from Alto Music by way of Amazon. (Prime Deal only last one more day.)

[GRollins]

1) The Musician's Friend website--and the receipt--specifically say new, plain and simple.

2) Although I've not bought used equipment from Musician's Friend, Sweetwater, Perfect Circuit, et. al., I have bought used off of eBay, Reverb, and Craig's List. Yes, every so often something goes awry (e.g. a clear case of bait and switch on Reverb a year or two ago--I got Reverb involved, they agreed, and things were dealt with). I'm not sure what percentage of deals have turned out badly, but it does happen. I expect a certain number of problems from time to time--in my experience, it's usually because people don't know how to pack things rather than outright fraud. I'm not saying I'm happy about it, but it happens. I'm used to it. BUT AT LEAST IN THOSE CASES I KNOW I'M BUYING USED.

3) The drum came in. I opened the box. Saw that it had problems and got on the phone...elapsed time no more than ten or fifteen minutes, tops...and some of that was wading through their computer-automated front end, trying to get to a human.

4) Jerry answered. He was was useless. He wanted nothing more than to get off the phone. He offered me $25 to keep the drum. A non-starter. I said let's initiate a return. He said he'd call back with "options." I have no earthly idea what he meant by 'options,' but he never called back. The Return Authorization that he initiated was for the wrong item.

*****

Okay, to fluff out the picture a little more, I had ordered three drums: Meinl HE-2000, HE-3000, and HE-3200. The HE-3000 was in stock and shipped that day. The other two were back ordered. The one this thread's about is the 3200, which shipped a few days later. Now we'll resume the narrative.

*****

So Jerry issued a Return Authorization for the HE-3000, in spite of me repeatedly telling him that it was the 3200, the larger one, the one that had come in just that day. He paid zero attention.

5) After waiting long enough that it was clear that Jerry wasn't going to call back with whatever options there were (he still hasn't called--and won't, I'm sure), I wrote my salesperson, Rebecca. To her credit, she got on the matter, like, almost instantly. Issued a RA for the right drum, straightened out a few other details (that I've left out for clarity's sake), and just generally came through like a champ.

6) So the drum left via UPS and is due back at MF tomorrow, according to UPS tracking. How long will it take to get another drum? No idea. What condition will that drum be in? No idea.

7) We buy things new so as to be able to rest easy, knowing that we're going to get something that's in good condition, right? What happens if that confidence is misplaced? What happens if that trust is abused? What happens if buying new becomes the same sort of crap shoot as buying used? Then what?

*****

Okay, let's take the story just a bit further...

*****

8 ) (Dammit, it's taking 8 and a parenthesis as a sun-smiley, so I've added a space. This pisses me off.) So...I wrote Rebecca a note with a purely informational question about the 3000. She's a Gear Advisor or whatever, right? She's my point of contact at MF and if she doesn't know something, presumably she'll forward my question to someone who can answer. I'm okay with that. No one person knows everything. Well...all I've gotten for a response is crickets chirping, at least so far. Now, maybe she went to the beach. Maybe she's got Covid. Maybe...I dunno...maybe there's a good explanation for not getting an answer to what I expected was a simple question. But it's been nearly a week.

9) And finally, for the coup de grace...I was talking to my wife about the 3000 (the initial drum) and messing around with it while I'm talking, only to discover that it, too, has a dent that I had overlooked. It's right under the seam of the vinyl-leather, so it wasn't readily apparent. Really, people? Two dented drums? Maybe Meinl is at fault. Maybe they're turning out defective product. I have no way of knowing who's at fault and I'm sure it would just be a finger pointing festival if I started pressing for answers. What am I going to do about the 3000 and its dent? Oh, crap, I don't know. People, I've got a friggin' house to rebuild and boys to raise and just to complicate matters further, they both go in to have their wisdom teeth out tomorrow morning.

 

I DON'T NEED THIS SHIT!

 

Can a guy not just put in an order for product and get items in good condition without having to fret and worry about things being (possibly) used/returned items passed off as new?

 

Okay, rant over. I need to try to get some rest. Tomorrow's going to be a really long day.

 

Grey

[Tom Williams]

On 7/15/2024 at 10:18 PM, GRollins said:

 Certain segments of society are turning ugly.

They're not ugly -- they just need a haircut. 

(ducking)

[Outkaster]

As someone who deals with vintage gear. Namely Leslie speakers, there is always a problem.  Nothing is ever pristine and always needs work. Especially as you are dealing with a 60-year-old speaker.  Anyway, I tell people never to inherit a problem if you don't have to. Even with keyboards I try to by new if possible.  Things always seem to go sideways. 

[GRollins]

Tom,

Jeez, dude...I can't help having this face...it's the one I was born with, ya know?

(And I do cut my hair...two or three times a year...or whenever I think about it, whichever comes last. I'm comfortable with longish hair, but apparently others aren't. I don't mind their disapproval, per se, it's the open hostility. The, er, mood, shall we say, has reached a point where people are getting so hostile that I'm starting to think about my personal safety. No, not exaggerating. There's a certain segment of society in this area who are very close to running off the rails.)

 

Re: The HE-3000

I'm in a grumpy mood. I went ahead and initiated a return on the HE-3000. Rebecca responded quickly when I asked to start the process and got right on it. Still no response to my question, but I gather that it may have been forwarded to someone else--I'm okay with that. I don't expect everyone to be an expert in everything. I know nothing about percussion and freely admit it. That's why I ask questions. To learn. That's why I came here--to learn about keys. It worked.

 

So the HE-3000 went out today. In theory, I'll soon be getting a "new" HE-3200 to replace the bunged-up one that I sent back the other day. The way I'm feeling, if the replacement comes in with problems, I'm just going to send it back and cancel the entire order. This is taking too much of my time and energy. There's something rotten in Denmark and I don't have any way to take control of the problem from out here in the hinterlands.

 

Honestly--and this holds regardless of whose fault this is--I'm losing faith in the whole online retail model. I may go to my nearby retailer (Sim's Music...good people...if you're in central SC and need something, go see them. Yes, they have a decent keyboard department.) and have them order things in. At least that way I can see the physical item when I pick it up. Besides, it's no bad thing to support your brick and mortar guys, right? It's just that they don't carry a lot of the things I'm interested in, such as Eurorack modules. But I think they carry Meinl and Latin Percussion (a separate chain of thought, I may delve into that later), so even if they don't have what I want, they can probably get it, at least from those two manufacturers.

 

Grey

[sunspot]

Yes Grey, it is total bullshit, and conspiracy brotha in me thinks it is done intentionally.  There's likely an algorithm (maybe AI already?) that figures out who will just accept the item as-is and be happy with it and who won't, and calculates what is most financially profitable to the company.

 

I didn't get clearly pre-opened shit sold as "new" from Amazon (not from a vendor seller, actual amazon.com) until a couple of years ago.  The last one I got, I just ordered another, and when I could tell the second order was actually new, I sent the first one back and told them it was clearly used and wanted my money back...

 

 

[surfergirl]

Probably 80% of everything I have is blemished, b-stock, open box or closeout and I've never had any issues. My red Boss Street Cube ll  was $100 cheaper than the black one, my EHX Deluxe Electric Mistress was a closeout at $99(regular $180)and my Mexican Stratocaster was $200 off(a blemish about the size of a pin). My mom and I spent hours looking for that blemish. Maybe I've just been fortunate so far.

[GRollins]

As I was boxing up the HE-3000 to send it out, I took the opportunity to examine the condition of the box relative to the dent in the drum. Nope. No damage to the box in that area. Nothing even close. Further evidence that there's something wrong up the supply chain. I don't have enough clout to get to the bottom of this; to discover whether Meinl is shipping defective product or if Musician's Friend is reboxing returned items.

 

Separately, in the Man, The World's In A Bad Space file, I'll note that I dropped in on Sim's Music today and verified that they carry the brands that I think I'll be wanting to explore, but...jeez, the salesman's attitude wasn't congruent with my past experiences at Sim's. Maybe he was just having a bad day or something. Be that as it may, I'm facing an uphill battle. The area where I live, being so...er...shall we say, deeply suspicious of percussion from other cultures, is not welcoming to people who want to play even "normal" other percussion, like congas. Darbukas? Djembes? Get outta here!

 

Add that to the usual resistance that I face, wanting to do original material, and it's going to be an uphill battle.

 

MF has acknowledged receipt of the HE-3200 that I sent back last week. No word on a replacement yet. No answer to the question I asked, either.

 

Bummer, bummer...

 

Grey