Is it time for a different board? My synth dilemma:

[kaptainkeys]

I'm facing a bit of a dilemma with my current keyboard rig.  I currently own a Kurzweil PC4 88 and it has been serving me well over the last 2 years or so since I got it.

 

While I have gotten a lot of use out of the PC4 in my home studio (its sounds have ended up all over the recordings I've worked on in the last year and a half), I've never really found it an inspiring board to play, where I can turn it on, dial up any patch, and just play for hours.  I always find myself getting bored of the few sounds in the board that I've grown to like, and anything beyond that seems unattainable due to the complexity of the editing parameters in the board.

 

Due to the nature of the gigs I play, it's been mainly a studio piece (I think it has seen 1 gig since I bought it) and now that my summer gigging schedule is filling up with weddings (which I haven't played many before) where I need to bring my own gear, I'm wondering if I should sell it and buy something else.

 

At this point, just for the schlep factor and modularity, a pairing of a 76 key and 61 key semi-weighted rig seems like it might be the way forward for me.  I've never loved the action on the PC4 anyway (didn't hate it either) and having 2 new (to me) boards might be what I need to have a more flexible and more inspiring playing and gigging experience.

 

 Thoughts?  Many of you guys have been doing this way longer than me, and so I want to hear what you would do in this case.

[Viv Savage]

Former Kurzweil Forte7 / PC4-7 owner here.  For a flexible and inspiring rig that is relatively lightweight,  I’m a happy member of the Yamaha MODX7 on top and Yamaha YC73 below club.   This combo will cover just about anything you throw at it, not least because the Yamahas have built-in audio interfaces, making it easy to use additional sounds from an iOS device or PC should you ever need that.  

 

The YC scratches the “fun to play” itch for bread and butter sounds and has a simple interface for live adjustment of effects and other parameters that I imagine you will find refreshing compared to the somewhat bewildering editing options on the Kurzweils.  
 

The MODX can do just about anything well, except organ, which is covered by the YC. And its keybed is not terrific, so again, I play piano parts from the YC.   I have the boards MIDI’d up in both directions so the YC plays the MODX for certain songs, and the MODX has my set list organized in its touchscreen live sets, which also send program changes to the YC to call up sounds.   Also - both boards have audio inputs, allowing for sub-mixing, and the YC has a duplicate set of XLR outs  (on the 73 and 88 versions).   It’s a pretty great rig!  Happy to answer any questions.  

[kaptainkeys]

@Viv Savage Sounds like an amazing rig!  I had the opportunity to play a MODX8+ a little while back and I was impressed with all of the random presets I picked with the exception of the organs.  I could probably get through a song or two if I had to with it but I certainly would use something else if my setlist called for more B3 sounds.  I haven't tried the keybed on the MODX6/7 (I assume it's the same on those other than the number of keys) or the YC in general, but I'd probably pick a board from another company as my second board, just to get a wider range of sounds.

[Viv Savage]

Yes, the MODX 6/7 are identical other than number of keys.  I hear you on wanting different brands, I did that for a while pairing Roland / Nord / Kurzweil with Yamaha.   But for me, the MODX takes care of almost all sounds other than B3 and piano, both of which are improved on the YC in terms of sound, easy tweaking and keybed / drawbars.  And I like the simplicity of doing 95% of my sound design on a single board.  (Makes rehearsal with just the MODX easier too).   And there aren’t a ton of options for weighted 73/76 bottom boards, and for me none was as compelling as the YC. Really, the organ is pretty fantastic.   So here I am with two Yamahas, but like I said, it’s pretty great! 

[kaptainkeys]

For me, having a weighted board is not super important, especially if I have to lug it through wedding halls with inconvenient load-in situations.

[Viv Savage]

Well, I did very well with the 19 lb PC4-7 as my bottom board for a while, so that might be a compromise and give you two manufacturers if you go for MODX. The nice thing was that the Kurz faders could be used as drawbars for iOS organs run through the MODX, and of course you can play all sorts of other MIDI tricks with the Kurz.  The weight and portability was amazing.  The reasons I switched to the YC were to get a more satisfying weighted keybed for piano parts, and also, I couldn’t get the Kurz to stop listening to incoming MIDI, which was a problem in my dual-MIDI setup, so ended up just using the Kurz as a controller which was sort of criminal under-use of that board.   

[stoken6]

@Viv Savage+1. If you like the Kurz sounds, but not the weight, the PC4-7 is a great choice. You could throw a lightweight (~25lb) hammer-action underneath it if you want an additional playing surface.

 

Cheers, Mike

[Paul Woodward]

I have gone with the two board setup for decades, probably a throw back to the early days of playing dual manual organ with a synth on top and electric piano to the side.

Like others I try to mix brands for sounds and over the last 18 months I have tried a few combos

Studiologic SL88 Studio, Roland D10 boutique and YC61

Korg Grandstage and Roland A800

Korg Grandstage and YC61

korg Grandstage and CK61

All the above with an iPad integrated for the ‘extra sounds’

Given up the idea of gigging for now, but you can see that, for me, the GS (73 note version) is a keeper for the amazing sounds and great action…not too heavy either considering it’s the RH3 board. Now paired with a Korg Keystage so I can use the setup in various ways in the studio and should I need to take it to a gig.

Really comes down to your needs and preferences, but a decent weighted bottom board and you could add something like the CK or even the new Roland Go boards for a lightweight option.

[kaptainkeys]

All of you guys sound like you have great rigs.  @Paul Woodward I might take a look at the grandstage as I quite like the RH3 action (at least on the D1) and I like korg's sounds in general, my only hesitation is weight and how easy the front panel controls are.  As for a top board, I'd probably end up with something like an FA06 or Krome that has a ton of sounds in it that I can use to cover any auxiliary parts.

[SMcD]

I'll be the one to give the obligatory shoutout to @Dave Weiser and his custom Kurzweil sound set. Before you make a final. call on the PC4, see if his sounds light a bit of a fire for you. They certainly did for me.

[allan_evett]

21 minutes ago, SMcD said:

I'll be the one to give the obligatory shoutout to @Dave Weiser and his custom Kurzweil sound set. Before you make a final. call on the PC4, see if his sounds light a bit of a fire for you. They certainly did for me.

+1 on Dave Weiser's Kurzweil sound set. Good idea to check those out before offloading your PC4, kaptainkeys. That keyboard's been on my short list to play/test, since I've been working toward an upgrade of my live 88-key instrument. Oddly enough, I'm having similar feelings about my CK88's inspiration factor; planning to keep that though - as a home studio controller and back-up keyboard.

 

Since you're exploring a variety of options, you may want to also consider a Korg Nautilus 88.  I'm also taking a long look at that one. From prior experience with a 61-key Kronos (and briefly a Nautilus 61), I found the current Korg sounds to be quite inspiring to play - and a vast amount of practical Programs/Combinations for cover band playing are included as well.

[AnotherScott]

Grandstage is a great board, but if the PC4 is feeling kind of heavy for you, the GS will be noticeably worse from that perspective.

 

On one hand, it's good that you don't necessarily need a hammer action board, since that lets you keep the weight down, but non-hammer boards do vary a lot in their piano playability.  Echoing some other comments, I'd probably go with the PC4-7 if you want a lightweight 7x-key current non-hammer piano board. Korg doesn't really have a good option there, the Nautilus 73 is heavier than your PC4, maybe you could find a used Vox Continental 73. I think Roland Fantom-07 is pretty terrible for piano, and the full Fantom 7 is again too heavy. VR-730 could be a possibility, I haven't played that one myself. The older FA-07 was pretty decent, as I recall, that could be worth a go if you want to consider used stuff. As discussed elsewhere, the MODX7, once adjusted, isn't terrible for piano, but it's still not a board I would choose specifically as one I'd intend to be playing a lot of piano on. Depending in part on budget, a 73-key semi-weighted Nord (Stage or Electro) could be a possibility... a little springy for my taste, but lots of people are fine with them, too.  I think that's your short list.

 

For 61 on top, at least in current boards, I really like the  Fantom-06, which I think somewhat splits the difference between an "immediate" board (like a Nord) and a "menu diver" (like a Kurzweil). MODX6 is another good flexible choice, a bit less hands-on than the Fantom-0; or if you want even more immediacy at the expense of flexibility, the Yamaha YC61 or CK61, or Nord Electro 6. Or maybe Hammond SK Pro, which is another that kind of "splits the difference" between immediacy and depth. Part of the decision may be based on what bottom board you decide you'll be pairing it with. For example, if you choose a more flexible bottom (PC4-7, FA-07), you may want to emphasize immediacy over flexibility in your top, or conversely, if you pick a more immediate bottom (VR-730, Vox, Nord), you may want one of the more flexible tops. But if you can cover all you need out of a pair of "immediate" boards, that could be the most fun, if you're confident you won't be frustrated by the limitations relative to some of the other options.

[SonicKeysII]

I just bought a Roland RD-88 to use as a bottom board and to be paired it with my trusty Roland VR-09 as a top board.  As much as I want to buy a Nord, I am not a fan of the action.  The RD-88 is about 30 pounds and fits nicely in the back seat of my small SUV.  Its piano samples and Rhodes patches are pretty good.  Its weighted action may be a little on the heavy side but I like it for piano.  The VR-09 is an underrated board.  Although its action is unplayable for piano, for synth and organ, it is fine.  You get used to it.  The organ and Leslie on the VR-09 are good enough for me and my bandmates.  The VR-09 is feather weight.  Not a bad combination. 

[RABid]

There was a time long ago when I was using 5 keyboards and a drum machine on stage. Now the perfect number for me is 2. At my age lighter keyboards are preferable, but not at the cost of poor action. For me, everything about the MODX+ 6 is perfect, except that the keys are way too slow. I cannot rip on it the way I can on my much heaver Kronos 6.2 or Fantom 7.  I really hate that because otherwise it is a great keyboard. I can use it as a second keyboard to the Kronos 6.2 and be happy. 

[Delaware Dave]

15 hours ago, kaptainkeys said:

...... and anything beyond that seems unattainable due to the complexity of the editing parameters in the board..

 

15 hours ago, Viv Savage said:

.... Yamaha MODX7 on top and Yamaha YC73 below club.   This combo will cover just about anything you throw at it ...

 

The PC4 will also cover anything you throw at it, that is the strength of the keyboard.  In order to get those sounds you have to be able to program VAST.  Trust me, they are attainable, you just need to understand VAST and get what you want out of it. The PC4 has the unreleased "VA1 synth" built into the keyboard.  The Kurz synths are my go to sounds. Have you tried assigning the sliders and multitude of buttons/switches to the various oscillators, filters, and decays in order to make all the real time adjustments?  I'm assuming the answer is no.  Customize those controllers to do what you want them to do and then you have the flexibility with one preset to have a mono synth vs. a poly synth, a moog vs a prophet, etc.  I guess my point is, don't blame the keyboard for the perceived shortcomings it actually doesnt have.  VAST programming isnt actually all that difficult, it is just different and it is a keyboard that you need to read the manual in order to grasp the concepts and unleash its power.  My two cents.

[Paul Woodward]

Good call on the weight thing, forgot that might be an issue. Grandstage 73 is 16kg, new GSX is only available in 88 keyso will be heavier again. It's always the same with weighted boards, usually some compromise to save weight.

I forgot I had a VR09 in that rig at one point. I rather liked it, but it cost me like £250 so wasn't expecting too much.

I found the Studiologic boards to be noisy, but they had decent feel and only 11kg for an 88 key.

[kaptainkeys]

Thanks all for your input.  I haven't checked out Dave's soundset for the board, which I will definitely do when I get the chance.  I'm also going to experiment with importing my own samples and doing some editing on the board (maybe with the help of the computer editor) to see if I can rekindle the flame so to speak with this board.  Playing around with the global EQ also might help me out.

 

In terms of weight, I'm pretty young, so it is not a real problem, I was more so thinking aloud about the possible benefits of changing up my rig by moving to lighter boards.

 

In terms of budget, if I were to upgrade, it would be whatever money I could get for my PC4, plus maybe some additional cash on the side, so a Nord (as much as I'd like one) is out of the question.

 

I have some time before the first of my summer gigs start, so I can spend some time with the Kurzweil and figure out what I want to do.

 

In the meantime, if anyone has any suggestions or input, please feel free to continue the discussion.

[CEB]

Just some general bullshit on my part ….  If I was building my A rig over again I would do it backwards than the way I did it.   My current rig the Kronos 2-88 is doing the heavy lifting soundwise and for patch control.   I have a FA-06 I use for the sampler and secondary keyboard.  If I need organ I bring an organ. 
 

Today after knowing what I do now I would have built the rig the way LZ built his.  Run the show from a Kronos 2-61. Then use a lighter weight 88 for weighted action play.   An FA-08 would have been a top contender.  
 

Another plus I never considered that may come into play is it may easier to afford a flagship quality 61 than the 88 model.   Controlling  a show from the 61 just makes a lot of sense.  The control panel isn’t black by the top board and total weight is way less.  A Kronos 88 in the case is heavy.   Only downside is playing in sunlight, which truthfully sucks in either case. 

[Paul Woodward]

I had a similar plan with the SL88. It was to control the pianos from the YC61, leaving that as a top board for organ/synth etc. with iPad as an optional extra. Whole lot under 20kg.

[ProfD]

On 6/18/2024 at 11:03 PM, kaptainkeys said:

While I have gotten a lot of use out of the PC4 in my home studio (its sounds have ended up all over the recordings I've worked on in the last year and a half), I've never really found it an inspiring board to play, where I can turn it on, dial up any patch, and just play for hours.

 

I've never loved the action on the PC4 anyway (didn't hate it either) and having 2 new (to me) boards might be what I need to have a more flexible and more inspiring playing and gigging experience.

First, I'd be curious to know what inspired the choice of picking up a PC4. 

 

Then, I'd suggest getting to a music store to lay hands on different KBs. 

 

The FTEC (Finger to Ear Connection) should inspire a KB purchase.   

 

IMO, it makes zero sense to buy, own and play a KB that isn't fun and inspiring to play. 

 

Everything else will fall into place when one has the *right* KB in tow. 😎

[kaptainkeys]

1 hour ago, ProfD said:

First, I'd be curious to know what inspired the choice of picking up a PC4. 

 

Then, I'd suggest getting to a music store to lay hands on different KBs. 

 

The FTEC (Finger to Ear Connection) should inspire a KB purchase.   

 

IMO, it makes zero sense to buy, own and play a KB that isn't fun and inspiring to play. 

 

Everything else will fall into place when one has the *right* KB in tow. 😎

The reason I bought the PC4 in the first place was for the sound design possibilities if the VAST engine, but life got in the way and I never got around to actually learning how to use it.

 

In terms of going to the store to try stuff, most of the stores near me have a very poor selection of keyboards, and when they do have a good selection, they're never hooked up.

[AnotherScott]

43 minutes ago, CEB said:

Just some general bullshit on my part ….  If I was building my A rig over again I would do it backwards than the way I did it.   My current rig the Kronos 2-88 is doing the heavy lifting soundwise and for patch control.   I have a FA-06 I use for the sampler and secondary keyboard.  If I need organ I bring an organ. 
 

Today after knowing what I do now I would have built the rig the way LZ built his.  Run the show from a Kronos 2-61. Then use a lighter weight 88 for weighted action play.   An FA-08 would have been a top contender.  

 

Another plus I never considered that may come into play is it may easier to afford a flagship quality 61 than the 88 model.  

 

Maybe it's worth thinking about picking up a used Kronos-something 61 and an FA-08 (or similar), and then selling your two current boards. Your out-of-pocket may not be much, and you'll end up with the preferred rig.

 

43 minutes ago, CEB said:

Controlling  a show from the 61 just makes a lot of sense.  The control panel isn’t black by the top board and total weight is way less.  A Kronos 88 in the case is heavy.   Only downside is playing in sunlight, which truthfully sucks in either case. 

 

Even without sun, though, for a Kronos 61 on top tier, I do wish they had provided an angled (or tiltable) screen. Presumably less of a concern if you're one of those who likes to tilt their entire top board regardless.

 

So maybe before considering the swap mentioned above, simulate the Kronos 61 screen position by putting your 88 higher and further back than you currently do, to make sure you're comfortable with the screen there.

 

16 minutes ago, ProfD said:

First, I'd be curious to know what inspired the choice of picking up a PC4. 

...

IMO, it makes zero sense to buy, own and play a KB that isn't fun and inspiring to play. 

 

For me, the key to enjoying the PC4-7 was not to rely on it for too much, which is a bit paradoxical considering its strength of being one of the most versatile boards you can get. But like the OP, I find it an off-putting environment to dig into. So most of the time, I use it for nothing but factory programs (or splits of those programs, which are easy to set up), saved into the Quick Access (Favorites) banks. As a "bottom" board, almost everything I'd want it to do is easily and satisfactorily done with a stock sound. So to me, it's simply a good-sounding, lightweight 76, with a good enough action to comfortably play pianos from. And Dave Weiser's sounds and those available from Purgatory Creek make it even better.

 

For comparison, I tweak the sounds on the Fantom-0 more than I ever did on Kurzweil or MODX. Part of it is that the sounds are easier to tweak; part of it is that, at least compared to Kurzweil, since it is used as a top board, I have a wider range of different kinds of sounds I need to get out of it; but also part of it is that the Roland sounds frequently don''t sound just the way I want out of the box, whereas Kurz and Yamaha sounds more often do (e.g. on the Roland, I'm often adjusting envelopes and effects).

 

My next step with the Kurz, though, will probably be to use it additionally as a controller for iPad (or maybe Mac/PC) sounds, since it's particularly strong as a controller, with again a nice feeling 76-key action, but also with aftertouch, ribbon, easily assignable controllers, multiple pedals. There's really a lot you can do with the board, even if you don't want to get into editing its sounds (or creating new ones). 

 

 

[ProfD]

30 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

For me, the key to enjoying the PC4-7 was not to rely on it for too much, which is a bit paradoxical considering its strength of being one of the most versatile boards you can get.

A 1st world luxury is being able to cop a KB for limited use. 😉

 

Folks don't usually have multiple acoustic pianos filling up their living room.  They buy a piano they can 1) afford and 2) enjoy playing.

 

Some folks have to make a main KB purchase count on several levels.  That KB should be fun and inspiring to play especially if it's primary. 

 

Of course, if money is no object or issue, any KB can be a boutique item. 😎

[AnotherScott]

21 minutes ago, ProfD said:

A 1st world luxury is being able to cop a KB for limited use. 😉

 

True! But I think realistically, a common two-board config is to use the bottom board just for, say, 10-20 or so sounds, and do everything else on the top board. IOW, in many cases, the bottom board is already "for limited use." Pianos, EPs, clav, harpsi, etc. What I think is more unusual about what I described is not that I'm using the bottom board for relatively limited use, but that I'm using a board that is capable of being used for as much more as the Kurz is. But that's basically because there's no lighter 73+ key board that handles these limited uses as well. Really, at under 20 lbs, what other 73+ key board is as good for the relatively limited typical bottom board purposes? I guess you could make a case for the Numa Compacts, which are a strong value. But if you can afford it, I prefer the Kurz for its action (less springy), its core "bottom board" sounds (i.e. pianos and EPs), and patch recall (Numa is scroll wheel oriented, you generally can't get to your desired sounds with a single button press). 

[ProfD]

13 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

True! But I think realistically, a common two-board config is to use the bottom board just for, say, 10-20 or so sounds, and do everything else on the top board. IOW, in many cases, the bottom board is already "for limited use." Pianos, EPs, clav, harpsi, etc. What I think is more unusual about what I described is not that I'm using the bottom board for relatively limited use, but that I'm using a board that is capable of being used for as much more as the Kurz is. 

Right.  Someone else could very well use that Kurzweil for everything in terms of sounds.

 

If a 2-KB setup is desired, use a cheap KB MIDI controller up top for triggering sounds from the Kurz.

 

IOW, the Kurz could be a sole sound source for someone who really enjoys its sounds and playing it. 😎

[AnotherScott]

33 minutes ago, ProfD said:

Right.  Someone else could very well use that Kurzweil for everything in terms of sounds.

 

If a 2-KB setup is desired, use a cheap KB MIDI controller up top for triggering sounds from the Kurz.

 

IOW, the Kurz could be a sole sound source for someone who really enjoys its sounds and playing it. 😎

 

True again! Though also you need to be able to come to grips with doing some deeper programming on the Kurz if you're going to take that approach.

 

Just in general, using a soundless controller as a second board (driving sounds in your first) does have the advantage of sometimes being more cost effective, and most leveraging off the capabilities of your other board. Though I still prefer sounds for the purpose of backup... and also ease. I'm used to choosing the sounds I need on each board, as I need them. But when changing a sound on board A is also likely to change the sound in board B, more thought and prep may be required to make sure it works smoothly. 

 

I've had the thought before that, on 16-part boards like PC4, MODX, Kronos, Fantom... you should be able to "lock" parts so that, when you call up a new 16-part sound (i.e. a new combi/multi/setup/performance/scene, whatever your board calls it), certain parts would not change (i.e. the ones you've decided to drive externally); and you'd be able to change those parts separately by having that other board send Program Changes to call up new sounds (programs/timbres/tones) for those particular channels, so a second board used as a controller would really function as an independent board similarly to how a second board with its own sounds does. 

[Sean M. H.]

Regarding getting a new board because the PC4 isn't inspiring, I think that's a very valid reason, one that I've probably undervalued over the years.  I'm currently looking into an electric guitar to start messing around on (and hopefully learning how to play it).  One of the things that I see a lot on guitar discussion boards as I've been doing research is sentiments such as: "the best guitar is the one that you will want to pick up and play the most often"...I had never really thought of it like that honestly.  From that perspective, it explains how things like color and how "sexy" a guitar are real/important factors, not just trivial considerations.

 

...translating that back to this discussion...I could see how the PC4 may not be the most inspiring board in many ways.  I've said before how I was a bit underwhelmed when I first got/played mine.  The presets are kinda flat, and don't exactly showcase all that the board is capable of IMO...The non-touchscreen is bland--no fancy graphics or animations to be found here...no LED rings around the controllers or flashing lights...the color scheme itself is boring.  The whole thing is very utilitarian now that I think about it.  Don't get me wrong, it does that utility very well, and has been an integral part of my rig for about 3 years now...but nothing about the playing experience is inspiring/exciting IMO.

 

Now, if you had said you found this board inspiring at one point, and you fell out of love with it, I'd caution you against "chasing" that spark perpetually...you get a new board, and then a couple of months later, you're in the same boat: uninspired and sick of the same ol' sounds.  But it sounds like the PC4 was never that board for you...and in that case, I say that's as good a reason as any to consider looking for something else!

[ABECK]

5 hours ago, Sean M. H. said:

The whole thing is very utilitarian now that I think about it.  Don't get me wrong, it does that utility very well, and has been an integral part of my rig for about 3 years now...but nothing about the playing experience is inspiring/exciting IMO.

 

As a K2700 owner, I can see what you are saying.  My experience is, you get out of it, what you put into it.  As a tool, it is fantastic.  If you can think it, it can probably do it.  But that takes a lot of thinking, planning, experimenting, head scratching, learning, etc...As a "preset" board, right out of the box, I could see where it might not be as accessible, like a Nord Stage.   For me, it is a nice alternative to a laptop based rig, as I just don't connect as well with that kind of interface.  But, when you really get in there, it is arguably just as flexible.  

[kaptainkeys]

I was thinking about my PC4 predicament and thought about trying the synth with a different monitoring system, as I currently use it outputting to a pair of old Aiwa bookshelf speakers, which may be changing my perception of the sound of the keyboard for the worse.

 

I was also wondering why it is that the board only comes with 50 factory multis, most of which are pretty basic stuff and nothing that really showcases the power that the PC4 can offer.  Anybody know why?  I find it especially odd given that the K2700 comes with way more multis-I get that it is a flagship board and the PC4 isn't but I'm guessing Kurzweil would like to sell both, so why nothing in the PC4?

[ProfD]

8 hours ago, kaptainkeys said:

I was thinking about my PC4 predicament and thought about trying the synth with a different monitoring system...

Give it a shot but the FTEC usually transcends the monitoring system. 

8 hours ago, kaptainkeys said:

I was also wondering why it is that the board only comes with 50 factory multis, most of which are pretty basic stuff and nothing that really showcases the power that the PC4 can offer.  Anybody know why?

Factory presets and multis are templates to showcase the potential of an instrument.

 

The blank slots are for users to create presets and multis based on their own needs. 😎