Chord structure. Are you a purist or anarchist?

[RABid]

I've driven more than one bandmate crazy over the years by playing inversions. I've even had bandmates tell me that I must hear things differently. I think I picked it up by covering so many rhythm guitar parts on keys. Example: if a song bounces between Cmaj and Fmaj I don't move my hand up to play a F-A-C.  I bounce by playing C-E-G -> C-F-A -> C-E-G -> C-F-A. Not only does it feel more natural to play that way, but the consistent C grounds the movement. To carry it further, Cmaj, Fmaj, Gmaj may be played C-E-G -> C-F-A -> B-D-G.

 

Does this seem natural to you? Does it drive you crazy? Have you not really thought about it?

[Jose EB5AGV]

That is the way I would do in general, don't see any problems 🤔

[CEB]

I try to play what is called for.   If left to my own devices I rarely play block triads.   I just do stuff often it’s 3-7s , median voicings, poly chords of some sort … who knows.  I play what is in my head.   If I need to play a C, I might play a Em dim or ‘Em dim over spread C5 in the bass.   Rootless works great in a band.   

8-9 times out of 10 what you are doing would sound more hip than staying on closed rooted triads. 

 

The one thing I am not good at is bandmates telling me how to do my job.  

[YashN]

I am more of a ear-ist than theorist. I composed a song and it was being recorded at a studio. After a while I decided to invert a chord. The Producer couldn't understand as he was too used to the original version, until the guitarist he hired to add a part said "no it's fine, it's just an inversion and sounds better"...

[Old No7]

3 minutes ago, YashN said:

I am more of a ear-ist than theorist.

 

I'd say I'm that way too...

 

How it actually sounds is far more important to me than how it should sound when viewed on a score/chart.

 

Old No7

[time4jazz]

I don’t think of there being a “correct” chord inversion while comping.  At the moment, the only time I can think of when the cord inversion is important is when the melody is part of the chord voicing. Otherwise, when comping, good voice movement (such as what you described) is a good way to go. 

[Tusker]

I admire the Chris Squire, Paul McCartney school: every pop song is a two part invention waiting to be discovered.

 

All you've got to do is let the bass be the melody instrument it already is.

[El Lobo]

2 hours ago, RABid said:

I've driven more than one bandmate crazy over the years by playing inversions. I've even had bandmates tell me that I must hear things differently. I think I picked it up by covering so many rhythm guitar parts on keys. Example: if a song bounces between Cmaj and Fmaj I don't move my hand up to play a F-A-C.  I bounce by playing C-E-G -> C-F-A -> C-E-G -> C-F-A. Not only does it feel more natural to play that way, but the consistent C grounds the movement. To carry it further, Cmaj, Fmaj, Gmaj may be played C-E-G -> C-F-A -> B-D-G.

 

Does this seem natural to you? Does it drive you crazy? Have you not really thought about it?

This is exactly what I would do (in this simple example - of course you can get more complex). And I wouldn't even think about it. What I can't understand is why this would drive any band member crazy or why they would think you hear things differently. I can only guess that you must be doing something different or something else to make anybody think you're doing something that drives them crazy. Maybe it's the particular song or a particular part that's supposed to go a certain way and they want to hear it "just like the record" or some other issue. What you're describing that you do is how to play keyboard. If that drives bandmates crazy, they must not know much about music. Either that or they're expecting to hear a specific sound or lick in a certain way that you're not playing. If one of my bandmates thought my playing of an inversion as you described made them crazy, I would agree with them that we should question their sanity. Either that or they should take some music lessons.

[MathOfInsects]

Yes, in general you'll aim for the "closest possible inversion." This shouldn't drive anyone crazy. You can generally get from any one chord to any next chord without moving any single note more than a whole step. (That is, moving each note 0, 1, or 2 half-steps, and no more.)

 

There might be something else in the part you're playing that is catching the guitarist's ear. It could be a rhythm thing, or it could be that your top note is rubbing against the melody in some way--duplicating it, sitting above it, sitting too close to it. In those cases you can either invert down or just drop the top note.

 

The guitar player might also be playing power chords and sticking the "3" of F on top might be making it sound too obvious that there's a 3, for him. Guitar players sort of notoriously ask us keys dudes to leave the 3 out, even though (don't tell them!) it's usually baked into the harmony one way or another, and their voicing doesn't mean it's not there. If anything, it's generally our job to describe the 3 and the "other number" (usually 7) and let the bass and guitar take care of the rest.

 

Like CEB, I rarely play a pure triad like that. Even if I want the sound of one, it's maybe just the 3 and 5, maybe with a grace note from the 2. If it's rock I'll play 1 and 5. If it's a ballad I'm more likely spread the chord out into an open 10th with the root low and the 3 (10) in the next octave. But in all cases, we have to sit just below or else well above the melody. Piano can hit the ear like a second singer so you have to choose your moments of melody, if there are any at all. 

[JamPro]

IF it is written out - I will try to play it as it is written.

 

IF some guitarist tells me "play C and F chords", then I will chose the inversions, the voicing, and whatever extensions I think are appropriate - based on how it sounds, how how easily I can get my fingers on that voicing,

 

I tend to be a lumper, not a splitter.  So for me, a C major chord might include 6ths, 7ths, 9ths, 11ths, and 13ths, and sometimes a #4, in all inversions

[Baggypants]

My Dad told me off for not playing chord inversions. He said it sounded like I was playing with a boxing glove on my left hand.

[Stokely]

I'm trying to wrap my head around a bandmate getting on someone for playing inversions?

If anything--and it still would be weird unless it just outright sounded awful--I'd think they'd get on you for playing position 1 chords all the time. 

I'm not a big fan of bandmates butting in telling others what to play, unless perhaps it's obviously wrong.  And if that is a common thing, probably that player isn't a great fit for the band.   It can depend on how it's done, in some bands the "butting in" has been quite rude and I will tolerate that exactly once.  Granted I play for fun and not for a living so I can afford to be uppity    I had one drummer declare "that patch sounds like shit!"   Well, ok buddy, now I'm motivated to NOT change it in the slightest!  (For the record, it didn't, and he was a total ahole in every way).

I'm not a fantastic player, can't read music or solo very well, but I'm very comfy with "standard rock chord"* inversions and passing notes between them to add interest.  Suspensions, that sort of thing.     I play inversions and choose octaves based partly on what I hear around me--it might work better with the singer or guitar to do so.   This sort of thing is where I find the fun and challenge in playing, whereas some folks find enjoyment in soloing.  If I go all night without soloing, it won't bother me a whit.  Every song has its challenges and creative aspects to it, mainly because I very, very rarely try to play it exactly as written.  Sue me!

*get me toward jazz, even Steely Dan, and my comfort zone with the chords goes away and I'm in thinking mode again  

[Konnector]

Ya, there's nothing at all wrong with those inversions you choose. In the end, it's which inversions will actually sound the best for that particular part that really matters.

[CHarrell]

Voice leading is great and very important!

[CEB]

1 hour ago, Stokely said:

I'm trying to wrap my head around a bandmate getting on someone for playing inversions?

If anything--and it still would be weird unless it just outright sounded awful--I'd think they'd get on you for playing position 1 chords all the time. 

I'm not a big fan of bandmates butting in telling others what to play, unless perhaps it's obviously wrong.  And if that is a common thing, probably that player isn't a great fit for the band.   It can depend on how it's done, in some bands the "butting in" has been quite rude and I will tolerate that exactly once.  Granted I play for fun and not for a living so I can afford to be uppity    I had one drummer declare "that patch sounds like shit!"   Well, ok buddy, now I'm motivated to NOT change it in the slightest!  (For the record, it didn't, and he was a total ahole in every way).

I'm not a fantastic player, can't read music or solo very well, but I'm very comfy with "standard rock chord"* inversions and passing notes between them to add interest.  Suspensions, that sort of thing.     I play inversions and choose octaves based partly on what I hear around me--it might work better with the singer or guitar to do so.   This sort of thing is where I find the fun and challenge in playing, whereas some folks find enjoyment in soloing.  If I go all night without soloing, it won't bother me a whit.  Every song has its challenges and creative aspects to it, mainly because I very, very rarely try to play it exactly as written.  Sue me!

*get me toward jazz, even Steely Dan, and my comfort zone with the chords goes away and I'm in thinking mode again  

Yes.  My gut reaction would be to tell the guitar player to shut the f*** up and play guitar.  

[stoken6]

40 minutes ago, CHarrell said:

Voice leading is great and very important!

And completely natural for anyone who's studied piano/any keyboard instrument.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[RABid]

3 hours ago, El Lobo said:

I can only guess that you must be doing something different or something else to make anybody think you're doing something that drives them crazy. Maybe it's the particular song or a particular part that's supposed to go a certain way and they want to hear it "just like the record" or some other issue. What you're describing that you do is how to play keyboard.

I'll have to admit the main two musicians I am thinking of are the singers and singer/guitarist that wanted to fire me for not playing the way they kept telling me to play. Both hands on the keys at all times, block chords, never use the mod wheel or pitch bend, etc... It was the 80's and 70% of our song list was new age and synth pop. The other 30% was 60's and that is where their music mentality was centered. Flock of Seagulls, Billy Idol, Cory Heart, Re-Flex, Joan Armatrading, and mixed in was songs like Walk Away Renee, Have You Ever Seen the Rain and Double Shot of My Baby's Love. A very strange mix but it went over. 

 

Anyway, I wonder if it is a 60's thing? Double Shot is a song that I always kept the root on the bottom because it sounded that way on the record. In other songs, keeping the 5th on top seemed to be intrusive on higher chords. But, it seems like I run into this each decade. I'll eventually run into someone that thinks chords should always be root on the bottom.

[Docbop]

27 minutes ago, CEB said:

Yes.  My gut reaction would be to tell the guitar player to shut the f*** up and play guitar.  

Just tell the guitar player to stop playing Drop voicings.    First you might have to explain drop voicings  to them and wait for them to say.... I have to all the grips I learned are drop voicings. 

[Bobadohshe]

Whatever serves the overall sound best.

[ProfD]

If a bandmate has better ideas of how the KB parts should be played, maybe they should be playing KBs too.😁😎

[ElmerJFudd]

6 hours ago, RABid said:

I've driven more than one bandmate crazy over the years by playing inversions. I've even had bandmates tell me that I must hear things differently. I think I picked it up by covering so many rhythm guitar parts on keys. Example: if a song bounces between Cmaj and Fmaj I don't move my hand up to play a F-A-C.  I bounce by playing C-E-G -> C-F-A -> C-E-G -> C-F-A. Not only does it feel more natural to play that way, but the consistent C grounds the movement. To carry it further, Cmaj, Fmaj, Gmaj may be played C-E-G -> C-F-A -> B-D-G.

 

Does this seem natural to you? Does it drive you crazy? Have you not really thought about it?

It is normal, natural and not really arguable to say that using closest inversion of chords is the smoothest transition from one harmony to another.   In most cases it sounds best.   There are instances and styles where you want an abrupt break from one chord to another - but, generally speaking, most genres of music benefit from smooth voice leading.   If you transcribe and study transcriptions of your favorite piano/keyboard players you’ll find inversions everywhere.   

[analogika]

In a pop context, playing the root triads means you’re jumping all over the instrument. That’s fine if you’re drawing attention to the instrument. 
 

If you’re not, shut the fuck up as much as you can — closest possible inversions at all times, and get out of the way of the singer/soloist. 
 

The example I always use to demonstrate the effect is “Feel” by Robbie Williams. Intro is the piano hook line root triads jumping around from Dm all the way up to Am yelling “Look at me! Loook at meeee!”, but the second the vocals come in, it’s close inversions: Dm triad plus one half-step up (Bb) and a whole step down (C). I then play the verse chords in root triads, jumping all the way from the upper Gm down to the low A. Super annoying to play, super annoying to hear in the “background”. 

[EscapeRocks]

My early piano lesson days was spent learning all the theory, classics, etc... It is what allows me to continue my craft today.

 

As far as popular music and what I do on my Journey Tribute:   I've had a lot of fun over the years discovering how Gregg, and especially Jon voiced their chords, based on how it sounds in context of the song.    Some times the basic block chord is 'correct', often times it's an inversion that lets the piano parts sing with the guitar, and especially the 5-part vocal harmony.

 

Once I realized what they were doing, learning the material by ear got a lot easier.

7 hours ago, YashN said:

I am more of a ear-ist than theorist.

 

My theory knowledge gets me to the chord changes, my ear tells me how to apply the theory into the song.

[RABid]

I wonder how long it will take the one button chord feature of many electronic instruments such as Push and Maschine to affect the way chord progressions are done. It sounds strange to me. At least they have ways of editing the inversions, if the users bother with it.

[RABid]

2 minutes ago, EscapeRocks said:

Once I realized what they were doing, learning the material by ear got a lot easier.

7 hours ago, YashN said:

I am more of a ear-ist than theorist.

 

My theory knowledge gets me to the chord changes, my ear tells me how to apply the theory into the song.

I've had a lot of theory but my ear is horrible. I blame three things. Growing up learning classical by reading, and only reading. Spending so much time at a MiniMoog listening to the harmonics of a sound while I turned knobs. And third, my mind just does not work like most other people.

[YashN]

23 minutes ago, RABid said:

I've had a lot of theory but my ear is horrible

 

I had some theory first in College - recorder practice. Later on was more interesting though: I found a guitar teacher near my place. I explained to him that I wasn't keen on theory for its sake, but was looking for some to compose better. He was surprisingly understanding, giving me just the right amount of theory to go with the practice in his customised sessions.

 

Nowadays, I'd try to find whatever suits my pursuits on Youtube or somewhere else online.

[CEB]

I had many years of lessons.  Then masterclasses, clinics etc ….   But I got my ear from picking up an electric guitar as a kid and wanking on it while listening to records and tapes.  I don’t know if I would have been a player without the guitar.  

[RABid]

2 hours ago, CEB said:

But I got my ear from picking up an electric guitar as a kid and wanking on it while listening to records and tapes.  I don’t know if I would have been a player without the guitar.

That is how I learned to play drums. Big help with my timing and feel. No help with my ear.

[jazzpiano88]

If you play a chord chart verbatim with just the standard symbols, you'll sound like either a 7th grade jazz band student or your garden variety local jazz combo reading the standards from the real book off of music stands. 

 

The key is to transition between chords is an effortless mastery (wasn't there a book by that name?) that makes one chord blend into another with an economy of motion and sound that seems inevitable.    It's called voice leading.    It's harder to transcribe because of the economy of motion/sound, but very rewarding.

[JoJoB3]

Still wondering how 'purist or anarchist' plays into any of this.