Bad Rap?

[retrokeys]

I think it all has to do with young folks and accessibility, Consider, when rock an roll first started, sometimes called "rockabilly," it was basic. Small ensembles, simple chord patterns, and the like. Doowop required an understanding of  harmony (gained at church) and a good reverb,     Both were easy to come by.    By the early 60's. however, production had come in. Your basic neighborhood kids would have a tough time recreating "wall of sound" studio effects and one of a kind voices like Frankie Valli or Ronnie Spector.  The British invasion returned basic accessible music.  A lot of us got started because of the Beatles or the Stones and thought "hey, I can do that." By the end of the decade though,  production was back in a big way, The studio was being used as an instrument itself. Even the Beatles couldn't produce live what was on the albums.  So psychedelia and home made hippie sounds.  Once again, though. things got polished and the kids on the block were shut out.   By the end of the 70's corporate rock pretty much guaranteed that to do pop you had better be able to play and sing at a high level.  The result   Punk.  Back to rudimentary skills. You didn't have to know that many chords in some cases it sounded like knowing how to tune was optional. Once again things got polished and kids found it difficult to make the music they were hearing.  Hence, rap. Two turntables and a microphone.  No players needed...singers either. Lyrics were all that was required.  The question. it seems to me ,is what is the next accessible form. It can't get much simpler than rap but it doesn't have to. Now everyone has a computer. Easy to make your own beats of loops and create electronic dance music among other styles.  It will be interesting to see what's next..

[Adan]

5 hours ago, jazzpiano88 said:

I was surprised that CBS Sports is now covering Poker as a Sporting Event.   Which reminded me of a New Analogy:

 

Poker is to Sports,  as

Rap is to Music. 

 

That's where we are.  Doyle Brunson versus P. Diddy for the future of your kids. 

 

Just curious, aside from tossing word salad arguments at adult strangers on the internet, what steps are you taking to save the world from rap music?

 

My young children got 99 problems and rap ain't one. My daughter listens to nothing but Taylor Swift. My son just wants to play video games (want to talk violence vectors?). I really believe exposing them to culture of all kinds is the most important thing I do in my life. German expressionism exhibit? West African dance troupe in town? Let's Go! Most of the time it feels like a losing battle, but if even a little bit rubs off on them, it's worth the effort.

[ProfD]

12 hours ago, retrokeys said:

Two turntables and a microphone.  No players needed...singers either. Lyrics were all that was required. 

Two turntables and a mic was the genesis of Hip-Hop music production. It didn't stop there.

 

Sampling technology was used to create music beds for MCs to rap their lyrics. It didn't stop there.

 

There's no shortage of gifted Black musicians who go into studios to create original music for Hip-Hop artists and tour with them as backing bands.

 

The Roots are the most well known, self-contaiined Hip-Hop band. They have also served as the house band for Jimmy Fallon for 15 years and counting.

 

Hip-Hop music has gone from two turntables and a mic to full blown music production using the full range of musical knowledge and musicianship.

 

Globally, the Hip-Hop music production aesthetic has permeated other genres of music in one way or another.

 

It's just a matter of time before we'll hear Rock and Country music using Auto-Tune and 808 drum sounds and Trap Beats.😁😎

[CyberGene]

As a non-native English speaker, I have certain difficulties fully understanding English lyrics when listening, not just rap but any music. But in any case, even with Bulgarian songs, I first listen to the music and if I like it, then I also learn the lyrics and dig deeper into their meaning where I can find the added bonus of it.

 

As a kid I knew all of Queen’s favorites by heart, without even knowing the lyrics.

I recently posted about Black Hole Sun. I still don’t know the lyrics. Boiling heat, summer stench, whatever 😀 I’ve read it once and it didn’t make sense anyway. But even if it was all sung with m-m-m it would still be one of the best songs. 

And that’s where foreign (well, American) rap fails for me. I’m hearing some guy talking something fast and rather unintelligible over some beats that are often unoriginal and repetitive. Boring. Almost no way I’d go check the lyrics.

[AnotherScott]

Yeah, even as a native English speaker, I'm "music first," and rarely pay much attention to words until/unless the music draws me in.

[MathOfInsects]

Oh man, you're missing some amazing writing. Some of best American literature of the last 50 years has come from rap.

 

"Couldn't afford a car, so she named her daughter Alexis."

 

"It's like we got Merrill Lynched."

 

"I can hear sweat trickling down your cheek/Your heartbeat sound like Sasquatch feet/Thundering, shaking the concrete."

 

"First ship ’em dope and let ’em deal to brothers/Give ’em guns, step back and watch ’em kill each other/'It's time to fight back,' that's what Huey said/Two shots in the dark, now Huey's dead."

 

"I bomb atomically, Socrates' philosophies and hypotheses/Can't define how I be droppin' these mockeries/Lyrically perform armed robbery/Flee with the lottery, possibly they spotted me/Battle-scarred Shogun, explosion when my pen hits/Tremendous."

 

“Goin’ through public housing systems, victim of Munchausen’s Syndrome / My whole life I was made to believe I was sick when I wasn’t”

 

And on and on and on. So much great writing out there. 

[jazzpiano88]

14 hours ago, Adan said:

17 hours ago, jazzpiano88 said:

I was surprised that CBS Sports is now covering Poker as a Sporting Event.   Which reminded me of a New Analogy:

 

Poker is to Sports,  as

Rap is to Music. 

 

That's where we are.  Doyle Brunson versus P. Diddy for the future of your kids. 

 

Just curious, aside from tossing word salad arguments at adult strangers on the internet, what steps are you taking to save the world from rap music?

 

My young children got 99 problems and rap ain't one. My daughter listens to nothing but Taylor Swift. My son just wants to play video games (want to talk violence vectors?). I really believe exposing them to culture of all kinds is the most important thing I do in my life. German expressionism exhibit? West African dance troupe in town? Let's Go! Most of the time it feels like a losing battle, but if even a little bit rubs off on them, it's worth the effort.

 

 

 

[AROIOS]

16 hours ago, ProfD said:

...It's just a matter of time before we'll hear Rock and Country music using Auto-Tune and 808 drum sounds and Trap Beats.😁😎

It's actually been around for quite a while.
 

 

 

[Cliffk]

Love this thread!

[ProfD]

6 hours ago, AROIOS said:

It's actually been around for quite a while.

I know. Couldn't resist being facetious especially in this thread.🤣😎

[AnotherScott]

14 hours ago, MathOfInsects said:

Oh man, you're missing some amazing writing. Some of best American literature of the last 50 years has come from rap.

 

 I'm told Bob Dylan has written some pretty good lyrics. I couldn't tell you what any of those are, either. 

 

Also, btw, I am poetry-challenged.

[Adan]

1 hour ago, AnotherScott said:

 

Also, btw, I am poetry-challenged.

That makes me look at your signature in a somewhat different light.

[AnotherScott]

5 minutes ago, Adan said:

That makes me look at your signature in a somewhat different light.

 

 

My singer/co-writer had the idea to adapt the poem, and wrote the "first draft" of most of it in singer-songwriter mode on acoustic guitar, and then we worked together to finesse it.

 

The funny thing is, though, that we have lots of other stuff (including other albums we've done) where I wrote a lot of the words! But whether my lyrics could be called poetry is debatable. 😉  

[stoken6]

On 6/8/2024 at 10:11 AM, retrokeys said:

The question. it seems to me ,is what is the next accessible form. It can't get much simpler than rap but it doesn't have to

Prompt engineering for AI-generated songs?

 

Cheers, Mike.

[stoken6]

On 6/8/2024 at 10:11 AM, retrokeys said:

The question. it seems to me ,is what is the next accessible form. It can't get much simpler than rap but it doesn't have to

Prompt engineering for AI-generated songs?

On 6/8/2024 at 1:12 PM, ProfD said:

It's just a matter of time before we'll hear Rock and Country music using Auto-Tune and 808 drum sounds and Trap Beats

Surely that ship has already sailed...

Cheers, Mike.

[Docbop]

I played Country for awhile yes I know it's a shock.   But that was at the tail end of the Disco and even Country artist started pumping up the drums in the mix and drums thumping out four on the floor bass.   I remember many Disco clubs were becoming Country line dance clubs,  so if there's money to be made all genres of music will start doing there version of it.    Like Beastie Boy, Vanilla Ice,  Eminem, crossing over but then M.C. Hammer crossing over and even your grandma grabbing her cookies and singing "U Can't Touch This".   Again anything that is successful and bring in the $$$$$ is going to get others to copy it to try and cash in.    

 

As Frank Zappa and the Mothers third album put it......   

 

We're Only in It for the Money

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ProfD]

35 minutes ago, Docbop said:

...at the tail end of the Disco and even Country artist started pumping up the drums in the mix...

 

...even your grandma grabbing her cookies and singing "U Can't Touch This". 

 

Again anything that is successful and bring in the $$$$$ is going to get others to copy it to try and cash in.    

 

As Frank Zappa and the Mothers third album put it......   

 

We're Only in It for the Money

Wu-Tang Clan....C.R.E.A.M....Cash Rules Everything Around Me...get the money...dollar, dollar bills.🤣

 

While artists struggle to make their art and musicians practice to perfect their chops, there's no shortage of suits aka businesspeople looking for the most lucrative way to monetize it. 

 

Music is serious business from several angles. Pick a lane.😎

[NewImprov]

Geez, I spend a week away from the forum, and this topic rears its ugly head once again! I kinda can't believe we're still having this conversation in 2024. Anyway, really enjoying reading the responses here.

 

How hip-hop music changed my life: About 25 years ago, I was going through a kind of musical/life crisis, I was closing in on 40, a band I'd dedicated most of my energy towards for a decade had just crashed and burned (on the night of the release party for our 2nd CD, which I'd funded), and, for the first time in my life, I was questioning whether it was worth it to continue playing music. I was pretty depressed.

 

A band of guys in their 20's asked me to audition on bass (my main instrument at the time), they were doing a fairly original mix of funk and live hip hop, they were good players, and I'd known some of them since they were literally kids. These guys were deeply into the hip-hop culture, especially the alternative stuff that was starting to come out at the time. They turned me on to a bunch of cool music, relatively mainstream stuff like Beastie Boys & Public Enemy, and more underground stuff like Mike Ladd, DJ Shadow, Blackalicious, Lyrics Born, The Roots, etc. I could see where this music came out of the funk and jazz stuff I'd grown up listening to, and it was taking it in new directions. These guys had huge respect for and deep knowledge of the records I loved, and they respected the stuff that I, as a slightly older musician, could bring to their music.

 

At the time, I wouldn't say I hated hip-hop, but I pretty much ignored it, as I do most popular music. I had no idea that there was a progressive underground in the music, and just like rock and jazz, that was where the really interesting music lived.

 

A quarter century later, I'm still playing with these guys. The drummer is one of the best I've ever played with, and he's a professional DJ/turntablist as well, he gets paid a Hell of a lot more as a DJ than as a drummer, and, he earns it, his sets really flow and he constantly turns me onto new music. Our MC has a kind of verbal dexterity that astounds me, I record and mix all of our stuff, and sometimes it takes me a number of times listening to catch all the references and internal puns buried in his flow. He's also a really good singer, and a great front man. The band has gone through about 4 different revisions, members have come and gone, some unfortunately permanently, our long-time percussionist died in a car accident in 2020.

 

We were actually booked to do a show opening for Grandmaster Flash and the Sugar Hill Gang on March 20th, 2020, the show cancelled that morning, because it ended up being the day the world shut down due to COVID.

 

Anyway, I know I get long-winded, but I'm in my mid-60's now, and still playing, and still playing with a lot of these guys. And, imho, we are sounding better than ever.

And, just because somebody said that no hip-hop gets posted here. I'll post some stuff in the Shameless Self-Promo forum.

 

 

I see the "hip-hop is not music" argument from musicians of my generation and older a lot, and, frankly, it annoys the crap out of me. Nobody says you have to like the music, but to dismiss the entire movement based on the worst stereotypes is kinda like hearing The Archies and saying all rock music sucks, or hating Jazz after only hearing Kenny G.

[CrossRhodes]

On 6/10/2024 at 5:34 PM, NewImprov said:

Geez, I spend a week away from the forum, and this topic rears its ugly head once again! I kinda can't believe we're still having this conversation in 2024. Anyway, really enjoying reading the responses here.

 

How hip-hop music changed my life: About 25 years ago, I was going through a kind of musical/life crisis, I was closing in on 40, a band I'd dedicated most of my energy towards for a decade had just crashed and burned (on the night of the release party for our 2nd CD, which I'd funded), and, for the first time in my life, I was questioning whether it was worth it to continue playing music. I was pretty depressed.

 

A band of guys in their 20's asked me to audition on bass (my main instrument at the time), they were doing a fairly original mix of funk and live hip hop, they were good players, and I'd known some of them since they were literally kids. These guys were deeply into the hip-hop culture, especially the alternative stuff that was starting to come out at the time. They turned me on to a bunch of cool music, relatively mainstream stuff like Beastie Boys & Public Enemy, and more underground stuff like Mike Ladd, DJ Shadow, Blackalicious, Lyrics Born, The Roots, etc. I could see where this music came out of the funk and jazz stuff I'd grown up listening to, and it was taking it in new directions. These guys had huge respect for and deep knowledge of the records I loved, and they respected the stuff that I, as a slightly older musician, could bring to their music.

 

At the time, I wouldn't say I hated hip-hop, but I pretty much ignored it, as I do most popular music. I had no idea that there was a progressive underground in the music, and just like rock and jazz, that was where the really interesting music lived.

 

A quarter century later, I'm still playing with these guys. The drummer is one of the best I've ever played with, and he's a professional DJ/turntablist as well, he gets paid a Hell of a lot more as a DJ than as a drummer, and, he earns it, his sets really flow and he constantly turns me onto new music. Our MC has a kind of verbal dexterity that astounds me, I record and mix all of our stuff, and sometimes it takes me a number of times listening to catch all the references and internal puns buried in his flow. He's also a really good singer, and a great front man. The band has gone through about 4 different revisions, members have come and gone, some unfortunately permanently, our long-time percussionist died in a car accident in 2020.

 

We were actually booked to do a show opening for Grandmaster Flash and the Sugar Hill Gang on March 20th, 2020, the show cancelled that morning, because it ended up being the day the world shut down due to COVID.

 

Anyway, I know I get long-winded, but I'm in my mid-60's now, and still playing, and still playing with a lot of these guys. And, imho, we are sounding better than ever.

And, just because somebody said that no hip-hop gets posted here. I'll post some stuff in the Shameless Self-Promo forum.

 

 

I see the "hip-hop is not music" argument from musicians of my generation and older a lot, and, frankly, it annoys the crap out of me. Nobody says you have to like the music, but to dismiss the entire movement based on the worst stereotypes is kinda like hearing The Archies and saying all rock music sucks, or hating Jazz after only hearing Kenny G.

Great post and echoes my experiences anytime I have collaborated with Hip Hop artists and producers over the past three decades. Like you said, cool if you don't dig something but mass generalizations about any music or culture, especially one as diverse as Hip Hop is just intellectually lazy.

Rap turned Hip Hop has been part of the soundtrack to my life since I was a kid in the 80's. A lot of the artists and producers are musicians themselves and have been recording and performing with other musicians in addition to sampling and programming for decades now. I'd put my favorite Hip Hop albums right alongside my favorite jazz, blues and rock albums any day of the week. 

A few of my favorite artists:
 

 

[AROIOS]

On 6/12/2024 at 11:52 AM, CrossRhodes said:

Great post and echoes my experiences anytime I have collaborated with Hip Hop artists and producers over the past three decades. Like you said, cool if you don't dig something but mass generalizations about any music or culture, especially one as diverse as Hip Hop is just intellectually lazy.

Rap turned Hip Hop has been part of the soundtrack to my life since I was a kid in the 80's. A lot of the artists and producers are musicians themselves and have been recording and performing with other musicians in addition to sampling and programming for decades now. I'd put my favorite Hip Hop albums right alongside my favorite jazz, blues and rock albums any day of the week. 

A few of my favorite artists:
 

 

Great share. Mac Miller's "What's the Use" and Tyler's "Stomach King" are dope AF.

[NewImprov]

On 6/12/2024 at 11:52 AM, CrossRhodes said:

Great post and echoes my experiences anytime I have collaborated with Hip Hop artists and producers over the past three decades. Like you said, cool if you don't dig something but mass generalizations about any music or culture, especially one as diverse as Hip Hop is just intellectually lazy.

Rap turned Hip Hop has been part of the soundtrack to my life since I was a kid in the 80's. A lot of the artists and producers are musicians themselves and have been recording and performing with other musicians in addition to sampling and programming for decades now. I'd put my favorite Hip Hop albums right alongside my favorite jazz, blues and rock albums any day of the week. 

A few of my favorite artists:
 

 

Thanks for posting those tracks, I hadn't heard Tobe Nwigwe before, what a great performance! I need to check out more of his stuff.