Keyboard amplification

[Chris47]

Look I know this has been asked many times. Long time Roland KC user here. Used to have the 550, now the 400. Yes I know it's not perfect, pianos a bit harsh and too much bass. And at my age the 400 is too heavy. So you guys all say get a powered speaker. I've tried them numerous times and they're just not loud enough. Must be some mismatch of output from the keyboard. So then you say get a pre-amp or mixer. Can someone break this down in detail? Pre-amp or mixer? What is a pre-amp anyway? Any recommendations for speaker or pre-amp/mixer? Would really like to settle on a decent rig whilst I'm still just about young enough to gig. TIA.

[Delaware Dave]

Read this:

https://www.sweetwater.com/insync/gain-staging/

[D. Gauss]

What keyboard? That would make it easier to help.  Any of the QSC, Yamaha, Alto big boy PA speakers should be ball-shakingly loud enough with correct gain staging as Delaware Dave has mentioned. You can get a half decent super tiny mackie/behringer mixer for $50 if you need more gain on the front end.  The $29 M-Audio Audio buddy was perfect for this but sadly, they stopped making them.

 

 

 

[Chris47]

11 minutes ago, D. Gauss said:

What keyboard? That would make it easier to help.  Any of the QSC, Yamaha, Alto big boy PA speakers should be ball-shakingly loud enough with correct gain staging as Delaware Dave has mentioned. You can get a half decent super tiny mackie/behringer mixer for $50 if you need more gain on the front end.  The $29 M-Audio Audio buddy was perfect for this but sadly, they stopped making them.

 

 

 

Well with my main band I'm using a 27 year old Korg N364 but I have three other bands that I use a Kurzweil PC4-7 with. Same problem with both. I mean my main band is basically a wedding band. We're not loud by any means. But pre-amp (whatever that is) or mixer? Thanks for your interest.

[jazzpiano88]

I might hold off for the Roland KC-135 decimated Strato-Tanker.  4 Speakers @ 16,000 W. each stereo chorus.    Built in 720 degree ring modulator that surpasses any 360 degree unit by a factor of two.  

 

They modulate the base band using Vestigial Sideband Modulation, thereby achieving a lower radiation take-off angle to the girls in the front row with no extra DSP required!!  

[b3plyr]

1 hour ago, Chris47 said:

Look I know this has been asked many times. Long time Roland KC user here. Used to have the 550, now the 400. Yes I know it's not perfect, pianos a bit harsh and too much bass. And at my age the 400 is too heavy. So you guys all say get a powered speaker. I've tried them numerous times and they're just not loud enough. Must be some mismatch of output from the keyboard. So then you say get a pre-amp or mixer. Can someone break this down in detail? Pre-amp or mixer? What is a pre-amp anyway? Any recommendations for speaker or pre-amp/mixer? Would really like to settle on a decent rig whilst I'm still just about young enough to gig. TIA.

The QSC 10.2 would definitely do the job. I use two of them all the time. And I use them with a Studiologic Numa X 88 without any additional preamp. What keyboard are you using? That may help us help you. I agree with others - you may have a gain staging issue.

[JamPro]

OK.  A mixer is a device that can accept multiple signals of varying strengths (signal levels), and output a signal of a specific strength (line level).  Along with that, a mixer allows the adjusting of these different incoming signals to balance them against each other, and may also include some tonal adjustments as well (bass, treble, etc.).  A mixer can be really useful for a keyboard player with multiple keyboards that need to be heard thru a single speaker unit.  Those Roland KC amps all include a built in mixer.

 

A preamp is sort of a mixer but with only a single input.  The idea is the same: accept a signal of varying level, boost the signal to line level, and adjust volume and tone.

 

Both a mixer and a preamp can add gain to a signal to make it louder at the speaker.

 

I am surprised about your experience with powered speakers being too quiet.  With my Yamaha DXR powered speaker set at unity (no gain), I cannot set my keyboard volumes above 50% - it would kill my hearing.

[Stokely]

I only run a powered speaker or IEMs for my personal on stage.  For the audience I'd say 99% of our gigs have me going direct to a PA...I take it that is not the case, or is stage volume hella loud?   

[The Real MC]

1 hour ago, jazzpiano88 said:

I might hold off for the Roland KC-135 decimated Strato-Tanker.  4 Speakers @ 16,000 W. each stereo chorus.    Built in 720 degree ring modulator that surpasses any 360 degree unit by a factor of two.  

 

They modulate the base band using Vestigial Sideband Modulation, thereby achieving a lower radiation take-off angle to the girls in the front row with no extra DSP required!!  

 

Roland is making a keyboard amp that is a chick magnet?

[JoJoB3]

If this is about shows, stages/rooms first ask yourself how much do you really want to haul.  You may already have the fastest, easiest.
Or if packing a mixer of any size and sort, all cabling, and 1 to 2 powered PA speaks along with the other gear isn't a bother then go do that voodoo.

I think it's easier to go amplifier for all in one ease. Then when possible feed a mono or stereo out from that Roland amp to the house/stage monitors if you needed more.

* google or youtube, etc will answer all your mixer and preamp questions.

[Reezekeys]

Here we go again! Any powered speaker when set to mic level input, will be able to be driven to full output power by your keyboard. You do not need a mixer or preamp if you're only amplifying your keyboard and can make do with its own effects and eq, assumming the keyboard has them onboard. Some powered speakers also have EQ settings but those aren't meant to be adjusted a lot.

 

When I say full output power, for almost any powered speaker over $200 - $300, we're talking a (claimed) 1000 watts or more. Sure manufacturers can and will fudge these numbers but it's all moot because the drivers in those speakers will blow long before those class-D amps start clipping - that's why all these powered PAs have protection circuitry.

 

I've had my QSC K8s for fifteen years, and have used them doing gigs with punishingly loud bands and they held their own. My ears ring permanently so I don't take those kinds of gigs anymore. I needed to switch the input to mic level to do the gig, so I did it. These days it's set to line level or I stay home! "I've tried them numerous times and they're just not loud enough." Something is definitely wrong with this picture. Any of the current 1000 - 2000 watters out there - Alto, QSC, EV, etc., should easily work for you. Switch the input sensitivity to MIC and you will be fine! (Start with the gain all the way OFF when you do this!!).

 

(PS - I said "here we go again" because I'm probably gonna hear it from everybody here that my way is not the way to go - they will tell you to use a mixer or preamp. I've been cabling directly to powered speakers since I got Mackie 450s twenty five years ago. I've never needed a mixer or preamp that whole time.)

[JoJoB3]

I thumbed up (but yeah, yer way is often the wrong way to go. Thumb down level: imminent)

 

Add mixer at least for such PA speaks.

[Reezekeys]

Wrong why? Less stuff to buy, carry around, set up and tear down. If all you need is gain - go direct, I say.

[AnotherScott]

57 minutes ago, Reezekeys said:

Here we go again! Any powered speaker when set to mic level input, will be able to be driven to full output power by your keyboard.

One more variable to keep in mind... some powered speakers don' offer mic level on their line inputs. If your keyboard has XLR out, you can use a mic cable. But if it doesn't, you'll need to run a 1/4"  to XLR if you want to engage the mic level preamp on your line level signal.

[Reezekeys]

My Alto TX308 offers no 1/4" input at all - it's XLR for both mic and line. I think most others have combo jacks. My K8s have combos and either type of input can be line or mic level (and as I've said a few times here, the "mic/line" switch just puts a pad in the input circuit - it's not like the signal is going to separate input stages).

 

I know there are some serious "pro" powered speakers like the RCFs that have only a +4 XLR input - those would require a preamp or mixer to connect a keyboard. Aside from those, I'd rather have to buy a few adapters or adapting cables than a mixer or preamp.

[AnotherScott]

27 minutes ago, Reezekeys said:

My Alto TX308 offers no 1/4" input at all - it's XLR for both mic and line. I think most others have combo jacks.

 

Yes, the step-up TS series Altos have combo jacks.

[Reezekeys]

The TX312 and TX315 have combos - only the TX308 and TX310 are XLR-only. TS3xx all have combos and a more powerful amp. The TS4xx have bluetooth and DSP for different EQ settings.

[stoken6]

On 4/22/2024 at 2:53 AM, jazzpiano88 said:

I might hold off for the Roland KC-135 decimated Strato-Tanker.  4 Speakers @ 16,000 W. each stereo chorus.    Built in 720 degree ring modulator that surpasses any 360 degree unit by a factor of two.  

 

They modulate the base band using Vestigial Sideband Modulation, thereby achieving a lower radiation take-off angle to the girls in the front row with no extra DSP required!!  

Now available in the cloud, for an "easy" monthly subscription...

 

Cheers, Mike.

[AnotherScott]

10 hours ago, Reezekeys said:

The TX312 and TX315 have combos - only the TX308 and TX310 are XLR-only. TS3xx all have combos and a more powerful amp. The TS4xx have bluetooth and DSP for different EQ settings.

When I was talking about the step-up models to the TX308, I was thinking TS308 (which I have) and TS408 (its replacement). I never looked at the bigger ones, I always keep things as light as possible. 😉 Good info though.

[The Gig Man]

On 4/21/2024 at 8:29 PM, Chris47 said:

Look I know this has been asked many times. Long time Roland KC user here. Used to have the 550, now the 400. Yes I know it's not perfect, pianos a bit harsh and too much bass. And at my age the 400 is too heavy. So you guys all say get a powered speaker. I've tried them numerous times and they're just not loud enough. Must be some mismatch of output from the keyboard. So then you say get a pre-amp or mixer. Can someone break this down in detail? Pre-amp or mixer? What is a pre-amp anyway? Any recommendations for speaker or pre-amp/mixer? Would really like to settle on a decent rig whilst I'm still just about young enough to gig. TIA.

 

I ALSO say, "...get a powered speaker" - lol!

 

I use a pair of QSC K8's with a small mixer.  OR a Motion Sound KP-408S stereo keyboard amp.

 

I use my Kurzweil PC4 on most gigs.  But sometimes use a Yamaha MoFX8 w/a Korg Kronos instead.  And sometimes I use a Roland RD-300GX.  

 

Both setups - a pair of QSC K8 active speakers w/small sub-mixer OR the Motion Sound KP-408S are PLENTY loud enough, especially since I use them for stage monitoring & still run L/R connections to the Main PA Front of House system as well.

[David R]

I have a question on a similar topic.

 

I sold my trusty Yorkville 100KB keyboard amp last year since 98% of the time I am performing through a provided PA and monitors. I have a couple of wedding gigs this summer & fall where I have to bring my own amplification, and my Mackie SRM150 isn’t going to cut it.

 

I don’t have the space to store something the size of even a QSC K8. I would love something in the form factor of the Roland Cube that has a more FRFR type speaker. Does such a thing exist? 

[Reezekeys]

Alto TX308 for lightweight gigs (ceremonies, cocktail hours, etc.). Not a cube but very easy to travel with. These days they’re $120 apiece, can’t beat that. 

[ProfD]

@Reezekeys nails it with the powered speaker recommendation.  Add a mixer if there is more than 1 KB in mix.

 

Besides, if a KB amp is too heavy, it's time to find and get used to a light-weight powered speaker.  No way around if the objective is to continue gigging. 

 

There is the option of switching over to headphones or IEMs and a mixer or talking the sound person into bringing a KB monitor.😎

[kram21]

I just never could get a satisfying acoustic piano sound( i can with headphones only),with Yamaha CP4 and Roland RD88

through 2 QSC10"s  despite  eq'ing.

[jazzpiano88]

1 hour ago, kram21 said:

just never could get a satisfying acoustic piano sound( i can with headphones only),with Yamaha CP4 and Roland RD88

through 2 QSC10"s  despite  eq'ing.

 

That is a bit strange since this is one of the more common setups.   EQing is definitely required out of any amp/speaker with AP.    I EQ the CP4 (CP300, etc)  at the source and run the Amp flat, if that helps at all. 

 

[DroptopBroham]

Powered speakers blow, I can attest. The KC400 is the amp you need and you have it. I'd hit the gym and take some creatine if I were you because you are going to be disappointed going with powered speakers. Yeah they're lighter, but way more bulky, more trips to the car, more cables, more outlets needed, weaker sound (no body), and a pain to use with multiple keyboards.  I had the worst time of my life gigging with powered PA speakers. They just don't sound as good and aren't as flexible as having a keyboard amp with DI's to go out to FOH and the KC400 you have is excellent. I use both the 400 and 600 now depending on the gig and haven't looked back. Takes me about 10 minutes to set up and break down.

 

I'd look to strengthen myself up a bit and try to put some casters on it like they have on the KC600, they make a world of difference plus you can stack stuff on the amp and roll it it all in on one trip. Easy peasy.

[D. Gauss]

5 minutes ago, DroptopBroham said:

 I had the worst time of my life gigging with powered PA speakers. They just don't sound as good and aren't as flexible as having a keyboard amp with DI's to go out to FOH

 

Since PA speakers "don't sound as good," are your sound guys using KC400's for the FOH PA mains?

 

[cphollis]

6 minutes ago, D. Gauss said:

 

Since PA speakers "don't sound as good," are your sound guys using KC400's for the FOH PA mains?

 

 

 

Yes, as sound tech for my band, I'm building a PA system out of unwanted KC 400s salvaged from the town dump. 

 

Plenty to choose from, but they smell a bit off.

 

[Delaware Dave]

57 minutes ago, DroptopBroham said:

Powered speakers blow, I can attest. The KC400 is the amp you need ......

 

Did you happen to write this on the afternoon of 4/20 but just got around to posting it now?

 

[pianomikeoct]

Someone was telling me about in ear monitors , you run the cord up the back of your shirt and yo can monitor the whole band through the mixer, so you would just run your keyboard through the mixer and not have to worry about an amp monitor.