Another GEAR mistake...? (iPad vs Notebook Rig)

[dalpozlead]

I recently got what I thougth would be my perfect mobile iPad rig (case, interface, cables, and apps ($$$), but after having just my notebook with me during all weekend I started to think if the hassle of learning CamelotPro, having to program all patches and still have some sounds missing (lead tones for example...) is worth of...

Maybe a good and small notebook with my mains VSTs (patches ready to go!) and a free copy of Reaper could saved me those bucks...

Not really a bright day around here...

[Paul Woodward]

Hard to say really, depends on what you need for your live set. I couldn't imagine gigging anything more than a small gig with just an iPad, but I would still want a stage piano regardless of whatever VSTs I had. A laptop will have greater flexibility even if some iPad have more power under the hood 

[AnotherScott]

1 hour ago, dalpozlead said:

I recently got what I thougth would be my perfect mobile iPad rig (case, interface, cables, and apps ($$$), but after having just my notebook with me during all weekend I started to think if the hassle of learning CamelotPro, having to program all patches and still have some sounds missing (lead tones for example...) is worth of...

Maybe a good and small notebook with my mains VSTs (patches ready to go!) and a free copy of Reaper could saved me those bucks...

Not really a bright day around here...

 

What kind of notebook are you using (Mac or PC)? Is Reaper the host you're currently using?

[ElmerJFudd]

I would suggest always starting with your goal, budget and amount of time you want to invest in setting it up - and the answer is usually MacBook Air M1 or M2 (8gb/512gb minimum spec) with Mainstage.  Don't underestimate the robust features as well as the wide palette of sounds and FX included with Mainstage - $29.99.    As a chart reader any refurbished iPad with a screen large enough for your eyes is good enough.

 

 

[AnotherScott]

19 minutes ago, ElmerJFudd said:

MacBook Air M1 or M2 (8gb/512gb minimum 

picking up from discussion in another thread... if I were going to step up from the minimum 8/256 config, my inclination would be to go for the 16 RAM rather than the bigger drive, on the basis that, when you eventually need more room, you can effectively add it with an external thunderbolt drive at not unreasonable cost, whereas whatever you do on the RAM side, you're stuck with forever.

[ElmerJFudd]

58 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

picking up from discussion in another thread... if I were going to step up from the minimum 8/256 config, my inclination would be to go for the 16 RAM rather than the bigger drive, on the basis that, when you eventually need more room, you can effectively add it with an external thunderbolt drive at not unreasonable cost, whereas whatever you do on the RAM side, you're stuck with forever.

If the funds are there, I’d start with 16/512.  But if pinched it’s a tough call on upgrading 8gb RAM or 256gb storage.  Keeping in mind that laptops like Apple M3, Surface Pro 10,  Dell Latitude or any “System on a Chip” designs are soldering these parts onto the motherboard so there’s no upgrading them later. 

[RABid]

Just remember, if you go with 256 you really have to be conservative with installs. You need enough free memory for memory swaps in a variety of locations so you don't overly wear down your storage media.

[Ibarch]

If you are going the iPad route, most of the big sound libraries are not available. You will have to purchase new apps. Whilst there are some good ones available, plan plenty of time to find what you need. 

 

Buy with what is available now, don't rely on a promise that something is coming soon.  

 

New iPads are very capable machines from a hardware perspective but the range and quality of software is what holds them back. Choice and functionality is limited compared with a Mac or PC. 

 

 

[Reezekeys]

4 hours ago, dalpozlead said:

Maybe a good and small notebook with my mains VSTs (patches ready to go!) and a free copy of Reaper could saved me those bucks...

 

So you already have a laptop? Or you're considering a different one to use for gigs? It's not too clear. And - Reaper (or any DAW) is not what you want for a gig setup. DAWs are not built to do the things you would typically need to do on a gig.

 

As to all the reccs so far: all I can say is that when I'm doing a gig with my laptop, I only have the software I need to make music running. Once again the choir is here, worrying about memory swapping, needing Thunderbolt speeds, etc. etc. I'll bet anything a refurb M1 Mac Air with the minimum config would make an excellent music machine for 90% or more of folks here doing a typical gig. If you do studio work, soundtracks, stuff with large orchestral libraries, etc. you probably want more juice, but for playing a cover band or tribute gig, some of the comments seem to be making much ado about not too much. IMO.

 

As far as regretting spending the bucks on your iPad rig, you seem to think it's not much of an advantage over a laptop. Sound-wise that's probably true, although there are plenty of good VIs for iOS now. For me it's all about ease of transport and setup. I carried an SKB Studio Flyer for the laptop, and a laptop bag to hold the computer and all my cables - now I leave both of those home. I have the lightest and easiest rig to schlep I've ever had in my entire working life, and it sounds great. Then again, I purposely went for the older iPad 9G for the headphone jack so I could connect it directly to my speakers. And I only have a bumper case for the iPad - it fits onto a clip stand I put on my keyboard stand. No more bringing a music stand and stand light either! Simple is better imo. iPad apps like AUM and Midiflow or Midi Layers will let you set up as elaborate a rig as you probably need.

 

4 hours ago, dalpozlead said:

the hassle of learning CamelotPro, having to program all patches and still have some sounds missing (lead tones for example...)

 

If you honestly can't find the sounds you need on an iPad, I guess that makes your decision easy - but I'm betting they're out there.

 

[Jose EB5AGV]

Although already published in other threads, this summarises my minimalist setup, with good piano action. As the KORG B2 has audio and MIDI USB, wiring is minimal. And then, if more than 15+15W is needed, the audio can be amplified using the headphones output to a regular amp (done that last Saturday and worked just fine). The iPad is running AUM and several VIs, including KORG Module Pro

 

[dalpozlead]

good points... about the host for live VSTs, any recomendation for PC?

My notebook is a Dell XPS with a new i7 (64 GB)

I'm a heavy Roland Cloud and Kontakt for main patches, therefore my sadness to find those sounds in an ipad...

[obxa]

Lots of good advice here and in other posts. I would say don't beat yourself up over it. Putting together a rig that works often entails taking an empirical approach.  Reading about other's rigs can only go so far.   What works for someone else may not for you and vice versa. 

 

I went all in bleeding edge on Ipad and didn't work for me.  Did the same with Laptop, but did end up going hybrid with hardware. I do love using Ipads for rehearsals and such.       For me, using a Laptop is cleaner &  easier in the long run.  But I have nothing to preach.  Many here have had  great success on Ipad.   Sounds like you're in PC world,  something like Gig Performer would be the place to start, rather than Reaper.    If you do Mac, Mainstage is $30.00 and highly recommended. 

 

 Again you've got to do a couple of gigs to see what works best.

[AnotherScott]

16 hours ago, Reezekeys said:

As to all the reccs so far: all I can say is that when I'm doing a gig with my laptop, I only have the software I need to make music running. Once again the choir is here, worrying about memory swapping, needing Thunderbolt speeds, etc. etc.

just to clarify, I wasn't saying you need TB speeds to use music apps with external media. What I was trying to say was that, if your choice is between an 8/512 macbook or a 16/256, I'd choose the latter, because whatever you choose to do with the computer in the future (music or otherwise), if you eventually need more storage, you can expand the storage externally without significant compromise (regardless of the task at hand), whereas if you eventually need more RAM, you're screwed.

 

So yes, even if you need more space (which you may not), you can get that at less cost, you don't need to go to TB for this application alone, as we've already discussed.

 

1 hour ago, dalpozlead said:

about the host for live VSTs, any recomendation for PC?

 

The main options are (alphabetically) Camelot Pro, Cantabile, Gig Performer, and VST Live (Steinberg). All have free versions or free demos. You can also see some recent discussions about these at https://forums.musicplayer.com/topic/186819-recommend-me-a-windows-vst-host-for-live-gigs/

 

 

[Reezekeys]

1 hour ago, dalpozlead said:

I'm a heavy Roland Cloud and Kontakt for main patches, therefore my sadness to find those sounds in an ipad..

 

Don't want to bust on you, but research - or asking here - would have told you there is no Kontakt for iPads, and no way to directly load Kontakt instruments to an iPad. Roland Cloud I know nothing about, but haven't heard of an iOS app associated with it. Again, I don't mean to knock you on this; I think you'll eventually be fine with your iPad. It took me a while to get my iPad system to the point where I could leave my laptop home. There are new apps coming out and developers doing some very cool things on the platform. You didn't waste your money.

 

There is an indirect way to get Kontakt sounds onto in iPad but unfortunately you're on the wrong computer platfform. Logic and Mainstage include a plugin called Autosampler. You can create a Logic sampler instrument (.exs) from any virtual instrument plugin that runs in Logic or Mainstage. The iOS app AudioLayer can import .exs instruments. That's how I got my Native Instruments piano into my iPad. Of course you don't get 100% Kontakt functionality, with their UI, scripting, etc. but for a lot of sounds it works fine.

[Reezekeys]

15 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

just to clarify, I wasn't saying you need TB speeds to use music apps with external media. What I was trying to say was that, if your choice is between an 8/512 macbook or a 16/256, I'd choose the latter, because whatever you choose to do with the computer in the future (music or otherwise), if you eventually need more storage, you can expand the storage externally without significant compromise (regardless of the task at hand), whereas if you eventually need more RAM, you're screwed.

 

Understood! I agree with this. Believe it or not there is a youtuber that upgrades SSDs on new Mac laptops - a procedure far above the pay grade of most electronics tinkerers! 

 

 

[AnotherScott]

27 minutes ago, Reezekeys said:

There is an indirect way to get Kontakt sounds onto in iPad but unfortunately you're on the wrong computer platfform. Logic and Mainstage include a plugin called Autosampler. You can create a Logic sampler instrument (.exs) from any virtual instrument plugin that runs in Logic or Mainstage. The iOS app AudioLayer can import .exs instruments. That's how I got my Native Instruments piano into my iPad. Of course you don't get 100% Kontakt functionality, with their UI, scripting, etc. but for a lot of sounds it works fine.

 

There are also automated sampling apps available for Windows and Mac that create soundfonts (e.g. SampleRobot), and iOS apps that can play them.

[JoJoB3]

On 4/15/2024 at 10:59 AM, dalpozlead said:

I recently got what I thougth would be my perfect mobile iPad rig (case, interface, cables, and apps ($$$), but after having just my notebook with me during all weekend I started to think if the hassle of learning CamelotPro, having to program all patches and still have some sounds missing (lead tones for example...) is worth of...

Maybe a good and small notebook with my mains VSTs (patches ready to go!) and a free copy of Reaper could saved me those bucks...

Not really a bright day around here...

Overall Reaper IS the best DAW out there...but that's in regard to today's DAW.  A streamlined vst player app would likely serve a bit better/easier in regard. Yes, you can use reaper for VST performance (most streamlined and stable of daws, setup projects and switch between midi channels on your controller of choice) but free or paid Cantabile will cover things well. Feature rich and easier than GP. Test it out for free.

Bang4Buck: correct, you gain real bang4buck via PC (just avoid ARM based, apple or pc. They're more for casual, average business use). I think a 2in1 (laptop/tablet) serves far better than iPad (dongle-pad). Run desktop/full applications rather than limited mobile apps. Spend way less on accessories. Minimize dongle-itis.
Again, Apple has never and will never see a dime from me. Gross ecosys, gross company. It's for those needing to be told what and how.

[AnotherScott]

5 minutes ago, JoJoB3 said:

Cantabile will cover things well. Feature rich and easier than GP. Test it out for free.

 

I think it would be worth testing both out for free. 😉  I suspect people won't all agree about which is easier.

 

5 minutes ago, JoJoB3 said:

Bang4Buck: correct, you gain real bang4buck via PC.  Again, Apple has never and will never see a dime from me. Gross ecosys, gross company.

 

As a gigging platform I think iOS, while limited compared to Mac or PC, can give you best bang for buck. You can get a very capable system for well under $500 total (hardware and software). Not Kontakt-calibre, but very usable. Mac or Windows are more capable overall, but if the topic is bang for buck, what you can get for cheap is pretty impressive.

 

[JoJoB3]

5 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

 

I think it would be worth testing both out for free. 😉  I suspect people won't all agree about which is easier.

 

 

As a gigging platform I think iOS, while limited compared to Mac or PC, can give you best bang for buck. You can get a very capable system for well under $500 total (hardware and software). Not Kontakt-calibre, but very usable. Mac or Windows are more capable overall, but if the topic is bang for buck, what you can get for cheap is pretty impressive.

 

Sure, test em both. I find Cantabile to be stable and have the better UI but also it can be used free forever.

Also worth checking (system) would be a NUC or MiniPC with a cheap small touchscreen. Pop a good, sizeable NVME in, get one with 16 to 32gb ram and it should deliver max performance and flexibility (running full/real applications and VSTi).

[AnotherScott]

23 hours ago, JoJoB3 said:

Also worth checking (system) would be a NUC or MiniPC with a cheap small touchscreen. Pop a good, sizeable NVME in, get one with 16 to 32gb ram and it should deliver max performance and flexibility (running full/real applications and VSTi).

Compared to an iPad? Yeah, more capable for sure. Trade-offs... more complicated initial setup, more stuff to bring and wire up at the gig, I think pricier, no battery operation. Same trade-offs as using a Mac Mini instead of an iPad, which was something else I had considered (the Mac being in-between the iPad and Windows in initial setup learning curve). Mac has advantage of not needing an audio interface, and availability of a $30 hosting environment wih a full suite of high quality instruments (Mainstage)... but--hacks aside--if you want touchscreen, you're probably going to have to pair it with a ~$300 iPad, so that could negate economic advantages elsewhere. Though many performers already own iPads, it's very common even if just used for song charts and such.

 

A problem I"ve alluded to elsewhere with the PC+touchscreen approach is that there's still a lot of music stuff in the PC environment that just isn't optimized for your touch. You may hit some frustrations with your "cheap, small touchscreen" in terms of not being able to smoothly operate something by touch and/or also possibly not have it scale well to a readable size on that screen.

[Baldwin Funster]

Another factor that's a plus for ipad is iOS apps seem to be much less in price than PC vsti's.

[RABid]

I don't know that you could ever beat the value of the entry level M1 Air. All you have to buy is Mainstage, then install only what you really need from the Roland Cloud and NI.

[AnotherScott]

27 minutes ago, Baldwin Funster said:

Another factor that's a plus for ipad is iOS apps seem to be much less in price than PC vsti's.

 

22 minutes ago, RABid said:

I don't know that you could ever beat the value of the entry level M1 Air. All you have to buy is Mainstage, then install only what you really need from the Roland Cloud and NI.

 

Yes... In terms of Mac/PC, there are some nice low-cost (or even free) VSTs you can run on PC (which often run on Mac as well), but there's no PC equivalent for what you can get for $30 from Mainstage on a Mac, which added to the M1 performance, the lack of need for an interface, and relative ease of use, makes it a high value proposition. And for iPad, there's lots of strong apps that are especially cheap (usually far cheaper than their PC equivalents when they exist), on a platform that can be cheaper to begin with, with the bonus of pretty much everything having nice touch-oriented interfaces, in the simplest and most portable package. But if you want a full range of VSTs on a touchscreen, something like a Surface Pro is the simplest way to get there. So for different reasons, I like iPad, Surface Pro, and Mac... it's great to have all these options!

[Baldwin Funster]

39 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

Yes... In terms of Mac/PC, there are some nice low-cost (or even free) VSTs you can run on PC

I actually have at least a few hundred interesting and usable FREE synths for windows I harvested from KVR a number of years ago. Including Organized Trio from GSI. An early form of VB3. I have barely tried the first 20 of them. Problem is they are all 32 bit and getting less stable as windows gets updated, I'm not even sure how many still work in windows 11. And the flow of all the freebies died out about 5 years ago. The culture of homemade synths from the synthedit platform that was going on back in the pre 2016 era ended.

It's a shame because I have a couple of really good mellotrons like redtron, that are ridiculously good for free. 

[ElmerJFudd]

On 4/16/2024 at 10:22 AM, dalpozlead said:

good points... about the host for live VSTs, any recomendation for PC?

My notebook is a Dell XPS with a new i7 (64 GB)

I'm a heavy Roland Cloud and Kontakt for main patches, therefore my sadness to find those sounds in an ipad...

try before buy

https://www.steinberg.net/vst-live/

 

https://gigperformer.com/download

[AnotherScott]

39 minutes ago, Baldwin Funster said:

I actually have at least a few hundred interesting and usable FREE synths for windows I harvested from KVR a number of years ago. Including Organized Trio from GSI. An early form of VB3. I have barely tried the first 20 of them. Problem is they are all 32 bit and getting less stable as windows gets updated, I'm not even sure how many still work in windows 11. And the flow of all the freebies died out about 5 years ago. The culture of homemade synths from the synthedit platform that was going on back in the pre 2016 era ended.

It's a shame because I have a couple of really good mellotrons like redtron, that are ridiculously good for free. 

 

I thought jbridge still worked to allow you to run the 32-bit plugins? Though I wouldn't be surprised if stability could be an issue.

[Baldwin Funster]

1 hour ago, AnotherScott said:

 

I thought jbridge still worked to allow you to run the 32-bit plugins? Though I wouldn't be surprised if stability could be an issue.

My biggest issue was windows, hence my strong move to ipad which I wish I did years earlier. Although NOW is the sweetspot to get in to ipads as the 9th Gen ipad has the power to be extremely reliable. 

[dalpozlead]

So many great inputs above.

Now, with more sobriety and after spending 1 week programing my iPad, my 2 cents.

- Thanks to some great apps I’ve managed to recreate 80% of my favorite patches. However, that costed me…, Pianoteq for Pianos/Harpsichord, Korg Polysix, THU for FX, B-3X and OB-Xd are not cheap.

- Free goodies are “King of FM” and “PureSynth 2” proved to be great options to program specific waveforms.

- I’m using Camelot to prepare setlists and to wire synths to FX. So far no issues, but will have to go deeper on how to set the program change with my controller.

- Overall, the “iPad” experience, (lack of mouse and in my case, a not super large screen), it’s a little irritating…some apps consider the double tap, other press&hold, to show options…

- I’ll start working in a dedicated rack with power supply, USB hub and interface asap. The goal is to have a super tiny box with only 1 USBC and 2 TRS as outputs.

[Baldwin Funster]

Wireless USB and Bluetooth mouses work fine.

[AnotherScott]

2 hours ago, dalpozlead said:

it’s a little irritating…some apps consider the double tap, other press&hold, to show options…

 

Yes, that's a flaw, that some developers use double-taps for things that really don't make sense and/or are unnecessarily inconsistent in the iOS/touch environment. It makes some apps feel like you're trying to solve a puzzle. Regardless of environment, a double-click/tap should only be a shortcut for something that could also be done some other way. As I see it, if it's the only way to do something, someone in UI screwed up.