Noob Question: Getting the sounds

[Johnny V. Lee]

I'm a guitarist who is just getting into keyboards, and I am going to be playing in a cover band. I'm also a software developer so technology doesn't intimidate me. I can learn how to use features on a keyboard.

 

What's hard for me, though, is listening to a keyboard sound within a song and trying to figure out how to create a patch that sounds close to the original. I don't have the breadth of knowledge that experienced KB players do that enables them to hear a keyboard sound and think through how the musician created it.

I can dial through prefab patches listening for similarities and I'm sure that's the starting point. But if I found something remotely similar, I would not know what I need to add or subtract to get closer to the sound I am hearing.

 

SO Finally to my question: Do you know of any video or webpage tutorials that focus on this question? It's not very easy to Google this one.

And maybe there's just no such thing, and the only answer is experience?

[CEB]

For me the starting point depends on the sound. Sometimes I will tweak presets or my existing programs or combis and sometimes it is easiest to start with the default blank slate.  I know some decent online videos on subtractive synthesis, but what is your rig?

[MathOfInsects]

What is your keyboard(s)?

[Johnny V. Lee]

Sorry guys. Should have mentioned I'm getting a Kurzweil K2700. I was originally looking at Korg Nautilus 61 key to save stage space, but I also want to use the kb to record in Pro Tools at home, so I wanted more controls than the Nautilus offered. The sounds on both are excellent, but I might give the edge to the Kurz.

[JamPro]

Welcome JVLee - don't be discouraged by impolite actors online.

 

"SO Finally to my question: Do you know of any video or webpage tutorials that focus on this question? It's not very easy to Google this one.

And maybe there's just no such thing, and the only answer is experience?"

 

There is no simple answer to your question.  Sometimes you can find a keyboard preset to do the sound you want.  Sometimes you can make small adjustments to a preset to get it to sound they way you want.  Sometimes you have to create a sound from scratch.  Sometimes, it is not possible to mimic a given sound, so you have to accept using a substitute.  It will depend on the sound you want, what keyboard(s) you have, your willingness to spend time to get a given sound, your knowledge of synthesizers and synthesis.

 

The Kurzweil K2700 has a good deal of programmability, so at least you have not limited yourself by your choice of keyboard.

 

Some guys will write in to this forum to ask about a particular sound they want or are working on, to get tips and suggestions.  Sometimes forum members are able to share a particular keyboard preset to cover a wanted sound.

 

As a general suggestion, I will suggest you learn about the basics of subtractive synthesis: what an oscillator is; what a filter is; what an ADSR generator is; etc.

 

Let us know how it is going.

[NewImprov]

Are the tones you are looking to replicate synth sounds or more standard piano/electric piano/organ sounds? The 2700 should be able to cover any of the sounds you need, at least to start with, and it’s very deeply programmable. IMHO,  It’s not the easiest synth to start with, I personally never really gelled with the Kurzweil programming process, but it’s a great-sounding synth with a lot of possibilities.

Can you identify the different types of keyboard sounds, like acoustic piano vs Yamaha CP 70, or Fender RHodes vs Wurlitzer electric pianos, or Hammond vs transistor organs? The 2700 should have a good selection of emulative patches for any of these sounds, at least to use as a starting point.

 

If you are looking for synth sounds, do you understand the basics of analog subtractive synthesis? If not, there’s a bunch of tutorials out there, I remember Sound on Sound magazine ran a great series on synthesizer basics years ago, written by Gordon Reid that is an excellent course of study.

https://www.soundonsound.com/series/synth-secrets-sound-sound

 

Good luck and have fun!

[RABid]

My advice, in the beginning, stick with just using presets on your main keyboard. For learning how to program patches pick up something like the Roland Botique SE-02, a MiniMoog clone with extras. It was designed in partnership with Studio Electronics and is basically a revision of the early MiniMoog mod. The SE Mini Mod involved moving the guts of a MiniMoog into a rack case, adding oscillator sync and a separate LFO. It is a perfect synth to explore sound creation. If the small knobs on the compact unit really bother you, the next step up is probably the Arturia 2 or 2S. I learned patch creation on a MiniMoog, just spending hours experimenting. French horn, flute, a helicopter passing through the hills before suddenly appearing overhead (you really learn the filter creating this sound), the Lucky Man lead sound, it is all there. And you will learn a lot more programming on something like this than trying to program a modern K2700. In the beginning you need to learn how the various basic waveforms sound, filter basics, control of the ADSR, what happens when you crank an LFO into audible range, and the difference it makes when switching between square and saw waves at audio rate modulation.

[Docbop]

I just typed "synthesizer lessons for beginners" into a search engine and one of first links was video below on basic components and sound they create.   I'm a very visual learner so like the how a lot of soft synths show the wave  and how it changes when you do X  so I have a visual to try to the sounds.    Serum synth he uses in the tutorial is popular soft synth, but there a many out there and a lot of soft synths that are clones of vintage synths.    Using the presets on synths I think is another approach you have known sound  now start tweaking knobs and see what happens and develop a feel for the component that make up sounds.   Nice thing with preset is you can screw things up as much as you want and get back to normal and start messing around gain.     Synths are an instrument like you guitar your going to have to spend time learn to play it and with a synth that is changing the basic components of a sound so got get your "Seat time" in with headphone (so you don't drive other nuts) and experiment until you got the fundamentals under your fingers. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[cphollis]

Guitarists train their ears to recognize certain guitar tones: pickups, effects and so on.  Keyboard players do the same thing, we learn to recognize and recreate piano sounds, organ sounds, synth, horns, strings, etc.

 

The suggestion to start with preset surfing is a good one.  If you can download an inexpensive (or free!) soft synth, it will likely have hundreds of presets to explore and discover how they were created.  Along the way, you'll learn about different wave types, filtering, LFOs and all of that.

 

Just running through an online course likely won't be as satisfying as exploring on your own.

[Johnny V. Lee]

1 hour ago, The Real MC said:

Hey guitar player, stay in your lane.  This forum is for keyboard players.  We don't share our techniques so that guitar players can replace us.

Funny.  Actually I started learning music by ear on piano.  Also, my keyboard parts will be IN ADDITION to the main keyboard player.  Think of me as an extra track.

[Johnny V. Lee]

53 minutes ago, NewImprov said:

Are the tones you are looking to replicate synth sounds or more standard piano/electric piano/organ sounds? The 2700 should be able to cover any of the sounds you need, at least to start with, and it’s very deeply programmable. IMHO,  It’s not the easiest synth to start with, I personally never really gelled with the Kurzweil programming process, but it’s a great-sounding synth with a lot of possibilities.

Can you identify the different types of keyboard sounds, like acoustic piano vs Yamaha CP 70, or Fender RHodes vs Wurlitzer electric pianos, or Hammond vs transistor organs? The 2700 should have a good selection of emulative patches for any of these sounds, at least to use as a starting point.

 

If you are looking for synth sounds, do you understand the basics of analog subtractive synthesis? If not, there’s a bunch of tutorials out there, I remember Sound on Sound magazine ran a great series on synthesizer basics years ago, written by Gordon Reid that is an excellent course of study.

https://www.soundonsound.com/series/synth-secrets-sound-sound

 

 

Great question.  I'm generally covering rock, but it could be anything from 60s to 2000s.  I'm not too worried about the pianos and EPs, or even the organs. Even though I am not familiar with the different models of EPs, I know the K2700 already has great sounding patches for those things.

 

I guess it's more about the synth and yeah I absolutely plan to learn the ropes. But let me try to think of an example to illustrate.  On Styx's "Too Much Time on My Hands" there's a keyboard sound that comes in during the intro, right when the A chord hits on guitar.  It sounds like a fairly basic synth sound, but it sounds like there's a phase shifter effect on it.  Or something.  

 

On my guitar rig (currently using Helix and Variax for cover songs), I pretty much know how to find a sound that's pretty close and then tweak. 

 

On keyboard I intend to go through all the available patches and familiarize myself, but if I found something close I would not know the next step to tweaking it.  Part of that is familiarizing myself with how the K2700 works, obviously, and I've read and watched some videos. But of course, the target audience of that type of thing is usually someone that's already familiar with the concepts, not a n00b.

[Johnny V. Lee]

49 minutes ago, Docbop said:

I just typed "synthesizer lessons for beginners" into a search engine ...

 

This looks potentially great. Thanks I will check this out today.  Probably will get easier when I can get my hands on the new board.

Thanks for the responses. I'm really LF2 getting deep into this.

[Docbop]

1 minute ago, Johnny V. Lee said:

 

This looks potentially great. Thanks I will check this out today.  Probably will get easier when I can get my hands on the new board.

Thanks for the responses. I'm really LF2 getting deep into this.

 

Why wait for your new board if you have ProTools it comes with a synth and there are lots of soft synths some free you can download on your computer and start experimenting with.   Like playing any other instrument you got get the fundamentals then you can go to any other synth and apply it. 

[RABid]

45 minutes ago, Johnny V. Lee said:

But let me try to think of an example to illustrate.  On Styx's "Too Much Time on My Hands" there's a keyboard sound that comes in during the intro, right when the A chord hits on guitar.  It sounds like a fairly basic synth sound, but it sounds like there's a phase shifter effect on it.  Or something. 

That is hard sync, syncing one oscillator to another and then having an envelop generator bend the secondary oscillator to create that phased growl while the primary oscillator plays the desired notes. Modern synths may offer both hard and soft sync. I remember trying to play this song on a MiniMoog that did not have the sync feature. Finally had to go out and buy a second synth, mostly to cover this song.

[YashN]

1 hour ago, Johnny V. Lee said:

On keyboard I intend to go through all the available patches and familiarize myself, but if I found something close I would not know the next step to tweaking it.  Part of that is familiarizing myself with how the K2700 works, obviously, and I've read and watched some videos. But of course, the target audience of that type of thing is usually someone that's already familiar with the concepts, not a n00b.

 

Programming the K2700 is for someone who is not only versed in synthesis but already familiar with V.A.S.T..

 

Starting with a K2000 for learning would have been better and easier, and the way to proceed would be to start learning Subtractive Synthesis on it.

 

You're going to run into a lot of difficulties.

[Konnector]

There's oodles of synth tutorials on YT for those just getting their feet wet. Understanding the basics of subtractive synth architecture is probably the first place to start. Knowing what different wav forms sound like, how envelopes and filters works, LFO's etc are the first things you need to know. Once you're familiar with that, you may want to have a look at additive synthesis (Yamaha FM synths for example) and get a basic understanding of FM. It's not anything like standard subtractive synthesis.

 

Knowing all this will help you know what to tweak on a patch to get to where you want to go. You'll also need to understand the synth engine architecture of the synth you're using as they're not all the same by any stretch. Buying a K2700 will give you instant brain damage if it's your first foray into synthesis.

[KuruPrionz]

3 hours ago, The Real MC said:

Hey guitar player, stay in your lane.  This forum is for keyboard players.  We don't share our techniques so that guitar players can replace us.

Foof! 

Profoundly different instruments and techniques. One cannot replace the other. 

And he wants to learn keyboards so this is the correct forum for his current question, no?

[David R]

I echo a lot of the sentiments here. The same way guitarists can tell single coil vs humbucker, Fender vs Marshall vs Vox, just on listening, you need to train your ears for the major characteristics between analog & digital. I’d argue the biggest giveaways in synths are filter types - Moog vs Prophet vs ARP.

 

Look up live video of the tunes/bands you need to cover and see what they used back in the day (before things got hidden in racks or do it all workstations took over).

 

I find Anthony Marinelli’s channel quite specific (focused on Michael Jackson) but the way he dissects the sounds is helpful. Matt Johnson has a few good videos about his sounds. Mitchell Sigman’s columns in Keyboard from the turn of the century about how to copy sounds were also quite helpful to me.

[CEB]

3 hours ago, Johnny V. Lee said:

Sorry guys. Should have mentioned I'm getting a Kurzweil K2700. I was originally looking at Korg Nautilus 61 key to save stage space, but I also want to use the kb to record in Pro Tools at home, so I wanted more controls than the Nautilus offered. The sounds on both are excellent, but I might give the edge to the Kurz.

 

FWIW I think the Korg VA engines are easier to program than VAST but that is probably because that is what I'm used to.

[YashN]

An easy and cheap way to start is getting a 'knobby' MIDI controller (sliders work too) and exploring a free VSTi doing Subtractive Synthesis. The more knobs the better but even a Paged set of 8-10 knobs or sliders can do the trick.

 

Youtube has plenty of free tutorials on Subtractive and for synthesizing particular sounds.

[Steve Nathan]

Welcome, and it's good you're asking.  I'd assume it took you some time to recognize a Strat from a Les Paul, from a Country Gentleman, and even longer to hear and feel confident you were hearing a Twin or a Marshal or an AC30.  We all spent years listening to records and turning knobs until it sounded closer or further away, until we eventually got to know what filters, oscillators and ADSRs did.  There's not really a shortcut, but some of the tutorials above should be helpful in getting you started.  

[K K]

7 hours ago, Johnny V. Lee said:

And maybe there's just no such thing, and the only answer is experience?

 

Bingo.  

[CEB]

The information access that is available today as opposed to 1975 helps a hell of a lot though.

[jazzpiano88]

.

[TJ Cornish]

6 hours ago, Johnny V. Lee said:

 

Great question.  I'm generally covering rock, but it could be anything from 60s to 2000s.  I'm not too worried about the pianos and EPs, or even the organs. Even though I am not familiar with the different models of EPs, I know the K2700 already has great sounding patches for those things.

 

I guess it's more about the synth and yeah I absolutely plan to learn the ropes. But let me try to think of an example to illustrate.  On Styx's "Too Much Time on My Hands" there's a keyboard sound that comes in during the intro, right when the A chord hits on guitar.  It sounds like a fairly basic synth sound, but it sounds like there's a phase shifter effect on it.  Or something.  

 

On my guitar rig (currently using Helix and Variax for cover songs), I pretty much know how to find a sound that's pretty close and then tweak. 

 

On keyboard I intend to go through all the available patches and familiarize myself, but if I found something close I would not know the next step to tweaking it.  Part of that is familiarizing myself with how the K2700 works, obviously, and I've read and watched some videos. But of course, the target audience of that type of thing is usually someone that's already familiar with the concepts, not a n00b.

Welcome to the forum. The K2700 is a wonderful keyboard with incredible power and nuance. Unfortunately, that complexity and Kurzweil's unique structure makes it a very difficult synth to start on to learn synthesis. To get started, grab a virtual analog soft synth of some kind that is simple in structure to learn on and drive it via MIDI from your K2700. MainStage/Logic has a couple; there are others. YouTube is a wonderful place to start; there are books on synthesis as well, and most of them will start you out with general subtractive synthesis concepts that will be easier to visualize in a simpler system. The K2700 has all of those buttons too; they are just nestled in a spider’s web of menus and layers. Once you have a feel for synthesis, you can learn VAST (the Kurzweil synth structure).

[stoken6]

Some good advice above. If it's "synth" sounds you want, there isn't an "instant noob method" to get from a song to a sound. You really should start by listening to e.g. square/triangle/sawtooth waves (and PWM), oscillator sync, low/band/high-pass filters (2-pole and 4-pole), ADSR envelopes and so on. The Sound on Sound articles that @NewImprov mentioned above are a great tutorial for starting at the "sound" end of the journey. 

Unfortunately the Kurzweil board you're getting, while a superb instrument, is not the best platform for learning about subtractive synthesis from square one. Do you have a PC/Mac/iPad that you could run a VA app on? That might make things easier. 

 

Finally - your Helix will be a fabulous synth-effects platform. 

 

Cheers, Mike.

[hrestov]

Start to different the sounds, and listen to it, on YouTube or your keyboard. 
I think there are categories and sub categories of sound:

 

KEYBOARD SOUNDS:

- acoustic piano

- electric pianos:

     - rhodes

     - Wurlitzer    
     - clavinet
     - cp80

- digital piano:

     - dx7 yamaha electric piano

- organ

     - hammond

     - transistor organ (vox continental, farfisa)

- Synth: there is a lot of synth type of sounds, it’s too long to explain…

 

NON KEYBOARD SOUNDS (that often keyboardist play)

- strings

- brass

 

Each category has their rules and are like a different instrument, with their parameters. And also with their effect chains. For example acoustic piano only reverb, electric pianos are similar to a guitar often (so amp simulator, sometimes chorus, delay, wha wha), hammond have the drawbars, so can make very different sounds, etc etc. 
 

Start to do what you need, and for each song make a research in Google or ask a question here. 

 

[hrestov]

Also, for learning, you can try to buy some multitrack backing tracks, that you can achieve in site like “karaoke version”. So you can have, for each song, the multitracks with isolated sounds, and with their name of category. So it could be simpler to achieve the sound you want, and different the different sounds in a song. 
(sorry for my poor english)

[J.F.N.]

Any K2700 owners who have used the Soundtower editor?

 

Personally I have absolutely zero confidence in Soundtower due to first hand catastrophic experience, but if the K2700 editor works, it would definitely be a better approach to use it for the visual overview, I do believe this will make VAST programming quite a bit less confusing, not using the word "easy" here, for good reasons, however, VAST is an amazing synthesis, extremely versatile and powerful.

 

I would start with one VAST layer, and try creating very basic sounds until you get the hang of it, and take it from there.

 

This was my own approach, and I have programmed synths since way long before I kissed a girl, still VAST is something I don't feel being in my back pocket yet, unfortunately spent way too little time with it.

 

Got my first Kurzweil, a PC3, a couple of years ago only, extremely satisfied with it, though I had access to a K2000 back in the days when it was released, the Piano player in one of my bands back then (I played Hammond), I fiddled around with it a lot but never really sat down programmed with it.

[Tusker]

10 hours ago, TJ Cornish said:

Welcome to the forum. The K2700 is a wonderful keyboard with incredible power and nuance. Unfortunately, that complexity and Kurzweil's unique structure makes it a very difficult synth to start on to learn synthesis. 

 

Bingo. You need a simpler framework to begin with. Then you can explore sounds, asking questions as you go. The sync sound you mentioned is unusual. Even a keyboardist might be asking that question. It's a great question. Keyboardists aren't any different from you: we are all trying to figure out how to create great sounds. 

 

Three major distinctions in a basic framework are: how do I make a sound bright or dark? how do I make a sound slow (like a pad) or fast (like a pluck)? and what kinds of "wiggles" do I have available while the sound is sounding? Every sound you encounter will fit somewhere within those distinctions: bright/dark, fast/slow, smooth/wiggly. When you encounter a sound that is close to what you want, you will be able to get it closer by knowing where to start tweaking. Good luck.