Hammond XK-5 Top Board Only + Controller For Lower Manual Versus SK-Pro 2 Manual Versus IK MM APP & Controllers For Gigging

[Skyscrapersax]

For gigging, which of course includes schlepping, which combination should I get:

 

1.  Hammond XK-5, but the top board only, paired with a MIDI controller for the lower board; or

2.  Hammond SK-Pro, 2 manual; or

3.  IK Multimedia Hammond App with my MacBook Pro and 2 MIDI controllers?

 

#1 and #2 are $4,000 each (new).  #3 is basically free to me since I already own all of that stuff.

 

Note:  My main axe is saxophone (51 years).  But my first instrument was Hammond Organ (I still own a 1969 E-112).  So, my "double" is keyboards, rather than flute or clarinet, etc.  This is for gigging, and I live on the third floor of a no-elevator apartment in La La Land, so the goal is to gig with this with heavyweight studio players.  I like the IK MM app but I suck at setting up stuff like assigning knobs, faders, etc. and deem the whole thing a bit fiddy when the other musicians will have dedicated instruments. I also think there is a visual aspect of all of this that a computer just doesn't convey, as well as real-time manipulation.  But the weight aspect isn't' *too* different between #2 and #3, except #3 comes apart for easier schlepping up those stairs.  Given how long I've played saxophone, you can see that I'm not exactly a "spring chicken," but I'm in good shape for my vintage.  #1 and #2 weigh about the same, except for the second board (12-15 pounds, depending on which one I would bring).  I *might* add pedals (probably spinet type) to this since I at least used to be able to do that. 

 

Compressed YT videos have me liking the XK-5 more than the SK-Pro as far as authentic grease & grit go, and I like the idea of the multi-contacts for chewy.  Maybe it's the tube, but it appears to have more soul, which is what it's all about.  I don't see spending the additional 2K for the lower board anytime soon and 65 pounds is out of the question, but it does come apart (is that even practical for schlepping?).  Of course the XK-5 is "organ only," so I'd have to bring the computer anyway (but it's AP and EP are better than the SK-Pro's).  I really like the idea of "plug & play" with the SK-Pro (at least once set up).

 

I'd really appreciate some organ players thoughts on this.  Thanks!

 

 

[Baldwin Funster]

The Xk5 probably sounds a little better than the others, I'm guessing especially in the percussion. I play the IK MM app for hours everyday and I've not heard any demos of the sk or xk sound that much better for a 4k price. However im sure the sk keybed is better than my roland controller and I'm positive the multi contacts in the xk5 are much better than that.

But if you are not a full time organ player that's all wasted capability in my opinion. I say get a Roland A800pro controller and use b3x and see if you grow into needing more. 

[Skyscrapersax]

11 minutes ago, Baldwin Funster said:

The Xk5 probably sounds a little better than the others, I'm guessing especially in the percussion. I play the IK MM app for hours everyday and I've not heard any demos of the sk or xk sound that much better for a 4k price. However im sure the sk keybed is better than my roland controller and I'm positive the multi contacts in the xk5 are much better than that.

But if you are not a full time organ player that's all wasted capability in my opinion. I say get a Roland A800pro controller and use b3x and see if you grow into needing more. 

 

I'll count that as the first vote for #3!  Yeah, it's a LOT of money for the other choices, but since this is for gigging, I would appreciate the "one box" concept (as opposed to the computer, setting it up, routing everything [which I don't understand at all]), etc.  Like sitting down to play an acoustic piano - sit and play.  I'm also trying to deal with real heavyweight players here, so I don't want to show up looking otherwise.  Then again, I saw Ravi Coltrane's keyboardist use a computer for LH bass (no bass player) at the Blue Note NYC last month...

 

How in the heck does one use 2 manuals with the IK app and have the controller's drawbars actually work? I agree the presets sound great.  (I have a few controllers, no old Rolands, though...).  And none with waterfall; that's of course part of it.

 

[stoken6]

You mention "gigging" - there's a reasonable hassle factor in wiring up two controllers to a Mac (variable, depending on whether you use  a MIDI and/or audio interface), compared to just powering up a SK2 or similar. 

 

You like multi-contacts - so you might be someone who appreciates the high trigger of "real clonewheel" action (vs MIDI controllers). 

 

Would a two-manual Crumar Mojo (Classic or Suitcase) be of interest? Round about £1400 here, so estimating $1500? 40lb though. Crumar 61 + its lower manual is another consideration for more $$ but easier shlep.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[Stokely]

Not sure it's a concern, but in all 3 scenarios you have one sound source--so one point of failure.  Probably a small chance, but its there.   I've been in the same boat, and ironically did something similar to scenario 1 yesterday by midi-ing up my Nord stage 3 compact to another board to play its piano.  However, the other board in my case has its own sounds, so not just a controller.

My other thought is to bring another keyboard and leave it in the car for the gig for the off chance the NS3 acts up.

[Reezekeys]

In my experience, schlepping gets old faster than we do. However, if your wallet and back can handle it, my advice is to do what makes you happy on the bandstand. At the end of the day that's what it's all about. I've been doing gigs in the NYC area most of my life and remember humping >100 lbs of Mackie PPAs up & down flight of stairs to enjoy $50 gigs with great players. I made my peace with small & light controllers and went with a laptop 18 years ago, now for local hits it's an iPad. Organ is not my instrument and I know players that are primarily organists can be very discriminating wrt keyboard feel and sound. I also know IK has B3X for iOS devices, and that it's a pretty well-regarded app (from the posts I read here anyway). The knock on laptops regarding setups that involve cables, dongles, OS versions, etc. is the age-old hard vs soft debate we have here. Personally I don't find running a USB cable from my Roland controller to my iPad's CCK, then hooking up the power cube, to be that big a deal. Laptops can be more of an issue of course but if you're talking free vs ~$4K, it might be worth a try, don't you think? Why not do a few gigs with your laptop and see how it goes?

[AnotherScott]

Picking up from what Reezekeys said, it sure sounds like the XK5 is what will make you happiest, if your budget and muscles can handle it. For a lower manual, you might want to put some thought into how to keep the manuals as close to each other as possible (e.g. what kind of stand to use. and choosing a controller which has little to nothing you must access behind the keys so you can allow the XK5 to come pretty far forward toward the rear of the lower keys). One possibility... with some effort, you should be able to use the lower manual option for the Crumar Mojo, that might be a nice option here, if not the lightest/cheapest/simplest solution. See the post and comments attached to this video... https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=1107123282829541

 

If you choose option 3, keep in mind this B-3X quirk, IIRC... while the upper and lower manuals will be set for different MIDI channels, the drawbar controls for each manual must all be on the same channel (the channel of the upper manual). Not every pair of controllers will necessarily give you the flexibility you need to do 2-manual drawbar adjustment.

 

14 hours ago, Skyscrapersax said:

I also think there is a visual aspect of all of this that a computer just doesn't convey

 

You could create a nice visual aesthetic out of the 2-controller approach by using one of these pieces...

 

https://marsbuilt.com/product/custom-dual-manual-keyboard-console/

 

 

 

14 hours ago, Skyscrapersax said:

Of course the XK-5 is "organ only," so I'd have to bring the computer anyway

 

Not necessarily, For your "paired with a MIDI controller for the lower board" scenario, you don't need to pick a soundless controller, you can also choose a board with sounds that can likewise function as a controller. In the lightweight under-a-grand category, there are the Numa Compact series (if you don't mind the extra width), Yamaha CK61 (if you don't mind your lower manual having slightly narrower keys than your upper), Yamaha MX61 (ditto), Roland Juno-DS, Korg Kross 61. I believe all of those allow you to easily switch between playing a patch that plays an internal sound (without triggering the XK-5)  and a silent patch that functions only as an XK5 lower manual controller. Some of the control panels are deeper than others, but just to switch patches at a gig, you don't necessarily have to keep the entire panel visually accessible. Actions vary... if you're going to be playing a bunch of piano on them, that could be another differentiating factor.

 

Related, I also played around with using a Casio CT-S500 as a lower manual for a Hammond, using the CME WIDI devices to create a bluetooth connection between them (since the Casio lacks 5-pin MIDI), and that worked fine. Despite the nuisance of no 5-pin connector, it's also worth considering... it's a very low-cost and very lightweight option, with an above average action. I think it plays better as a "piano" than most (probably all) of the ones I mentioned in the previous paragraph.

 

 

[JoJoB3]

16 hours ago, Skyscrapersax said:

For gigging, which of course includes schlepping, which combination should I get:

 

1.  Hammond XK-5, but the top board only, paired with a MIDI controller for the lower board; or

2.  Hammond SK-Pro, 2 manual; or

3.  IK Multimedia Hammond App with my MacBook Pro and 2 MIDI controllers?

 

#1 and #2 are $4,000 each (new).  #3 is basically free to me since I already own all of that stuff.

 

Note:  My main axe is saxophone (51 years).  But my first instrument was Hammond Organ (I still own a 1969 E-112).  So, my "double" is keyboards, rather than flute or clarinet, etc.  This is for gigging, and I live on the third floor of a no-elevator apartment in La La Land, so the goal is to gig with this with heavyweight studio players.  I like the IK MM app but I suck at setting up stuff like assigning knobs, faders, etc. and deem the whole thing a bit fiddy when the other musicians will have dedicated instruments. I also think there is a visual aspect of all of this that a computer just doesn't convey, as well as real-time manipulation.  But the weight aspect isn't' *too* different between #2 and #3, except #3 comes apart for easier schlepping up those stairs.  Given how long I've played saxophone, you can see that I'm not exactly a "spring chicken," but I'm in good shape for my vintage.  #1 and #2 weigh about the same, except for the second board (12-15 pounds, depending on which one I would bring).  I *might* add pedals (probably spinet type) to this since I at least used to be able to do that. 

 

Compressed YT videos have me liking the XK-5 more than the SK-Pro as far as authentic grease & grit go, and I like the idea of the multi-contacts for chewy.  Maybe it's the tube, but it appears to have more soul, which is what it's all about.  I don't see spending the additional 2K for the lower board anytime soon and 65 pounds is out of the question, but it does come apart (is that even practical for schlepping?).  Of course the XK-5 is "organ only," so I'd have to bring the computer anyway (but it's AP and EP are better than the SK-Pro's).  I really like the idea of "plug & play" with the SK-Pro (at least once set up).

 

I'd really appreciate some organ players thoughts on this.  Thanks!

 

 

Pretty sure you already know the answer in regard to schlep/ease - go with option 3 (BX-3 or acousticsamples B5 highly encouraged).


I own the XK3c but have tried the XK5 a few times. The multi-contact sim is (for working organists) a necessary piece in the clone realm in trying to capture the vintage original. That aspect may or not matter to you in this case.  What I've found is that the modular system goes a LONG way though in bang 4 buck as sometimes you don't need double manual, and/or you need organ on-hand above/below a different board or instrument.
This is one of the strongest reasons in considering the XK line.  Lightweight however they are not. It's a haul.

Then again even a cheap, 12lb VR09 organ may get the job done without issue.

But option 3 definitely cuts the schlep and the latest virtual clone apps sound pretty damn great.

 

[drawback]

Based on the OP’s leanings toward the real deal Hammond, I’d go with the XK-5 as the main board and add a lightweight keyboard with good onboard sounds. The CK61 would be good, and by now you can get a used YK61. Good pianos, EPs, etc. Placement on top of the Hammond. Basically, a traditional organ player setup without having to fiddle with MIDI. 
 

Another way to work it would be a Hammond XK-4 on top, CK61 on bottom. Or, there’s a CK61 / MSolo combination for weight but not the aesthetics. 

[JoJoB3]

12 minutes ago, drawback said:

Based on the OP’s leanings toward the real deal Hammond, I’d go with the XK-5 as the main board and add a lightweight keyboard with good onboard sounds. The CK61 would be good, and by now you can get a used YK61. Good pianos, EPs, etc. Placement on top of the Hammond. Basically, a traditional organ player setup without having to fiddle with MIDI. 
 

Another way to work it would be a Hammond XK-4 on top, CK61 on bottom. Or, there’s a CK61 / MSolo combination for weight but not the aesthetics. 

Oh, and the XK line MIDI features are a BIG bonus in regard as well. I would hope the XK4 follows similar suit.
I also think the internal leslie sim on the XK4 is quite decent.

[drawback]

50 minutes ago, JoJoB3 said:

Oh, and the XK line MIDI features are a BIG bonus in regard as well. I would hope the XK4 follows similar suit.
I also think the internal leslie sim on the XK4 is quite decent.

Yeah, the XK-4 looks like a winner at the price point, and I’d probably go with that and an iPad if I were looking at something for myself. 

[John Tweed]

What about a Yamaha CK61 (or 88) which has plenty of its own sounds but which you can easily integrate an iPad or computer for better organ or other sounds. It’s very light and the onboard sounds are surprisingly good, as long as you don’t want to extensively edit things. 

[niacin]

i think only you can decide which you’re going to hate more:

 

1. the weight of a 2-manual board that is a bit of a pain to move, but once you’ve moved it it’s plug and play happy days,

 

or

 

2. a rig that is easier to move but leaves you with two manuals that aren’t going to be quite as close together as you’d like, some sort of 2-tier stand, and the bother of hooking it all up to your sound source before you can play.

 

I’ve seen pros touring with a 2-manual clonewheel and I’ve seen others using 2 generic midi controller keyboards and a midi pedalboard hooked up to something running the latest greatest vst.  I prefer to go slow with the heavier lug and then plug and play, but I can’t guess which will make you happier when you have it set up and play that first note at a gig.

 

I’ll add i didn’t like the SKpro out of the box, too bright, lacked warmth etc, but after lowering the crossover point for the drive, adding more key click, widening the angle of the leslie mikes etc. it purrs real nice, imo.

 

As mentioned there are alternatives to Hammond-Suzuki’s offerings and they’re rather less expensive: Crumar Mojo, Viscount Legend Soul, and MAG organs are the top contenders.