Thinking about gigging with a Mac... Mini or Macbook Air? M1, Intel?

[Reezekeys]

21 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

As mentioned, I would attach a tiny USB 3.1 SSD to get around the storage limitation, (A Crucial X9 Pro, which I also have other uses for.) But that Macbook use of external storage could be an area where the Mini has a performance advantage. Or maybe even the external SSD here is so fast that faster storage won't make a difference (for audio purposes), or any benefit is more than offset by the M1 itself.

 

You might measure faster transfer speeds with the Mini's internal SSD compared to a USB 3.1 SSD external on the Macbook - but I also think you're 100% correct that "maybe even the external SSD here is so fast that faster storage won't make a difference (for audio purposes)." I'm getting near 1Gb/sec transfer speeds using a $40 1TB NVMe gumstick SSD in a USB 3.1 case - more than fast enough for any audio work. Hook up that Crucial, load it up with your samples and go for it - you'll be fine!

[analogika]

5 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

 

Yeah... I had never considered the Mini for just that reason (screen, mouse, keyboard), until I found that Jump Desktop on my 12.9 iPad Pro (or other similar solutions) could give me wireless touchscreen that also obviated the need for keyboard or mouse... but yes, the question of a backup plan is one thing solved by the macbook (the backup screen/keyboard/mouse are right there). So to Reezekey's point, yeah... no matter how reliable the headless Mini might be (and I don't know for sure yet), there is always going to be higher potential for a glitch that I can't quickly fix, compared to the Macbook with its built-in fallback screen/keyboard/mouse.

 

 

My idea of the small vertical floorstand was that it could keep it out of the way (physically and visually/aesthetically) and still safe (raised off the floor, but placed under the keys out of any traffic path... and if by chance it got knocked over, it's just falling a a matter of inches rather than feet), plus less setup  time than dealing with some kind of shelf attachment.

 

I usually have the iPad there for the set list (with any lyrics or chord charts I might need); using the same iPad for patch selection of whatever sounds I get from the Mac seems sensible. You do need some way to choose your sounds, regardless.

 

 

Yeah, I did mention that the battery could be convenient, but yes, it's a good point that, even though I have plenty of stuff plugged in, a momentary power glitch still has me up again and playing very quickly, whereas if the Mac Mini has to reboot after a hard power cut, I suppose it might have the potential to yield a kronos-calibre delay.

 

 

I'm interested in Mac for more than the Logic/Mainstage instruments. But I didn't think Logic on iPad was really suited for live performance... but maybe I'm wrong about that. Does the iPad version of Logic actually give you the full Mac Logic sound library, including access to third party AU plugins? I didn't think that was the case.

 

Technically, yes — but only for plug-ins that have been ported to iPadOS (a single iZotope plugin, AFAIK, and none of the other heavy hitters: no UAD, no Waves, no Native Instruments, no Sonible, etc. So far.).

[ElmerJFudd]

7 hours ago, Reezekeys said:

 

You might measure faster transfer speeds with the Mini's internal SSD compared to a USB 3.1 SSD external on the Macbook - but I also think you're 100% correct that "maybe even the external SSD here is so fast that faster storage won't make a difference (for audio purposes)." I'm getting near 1Gb/sec transfer speeds using a $40 1TB NVMe gumstick SSD in a USB 3.1 case - more than fast enough for any audio work. Hook up that Crucial, load it up with your samples and go for it - you'll be fine!

For sure Apple’s soldered on storage is faster than a USB or even Thunderbolt SSD.   But it  doesn’t  matter much for MainStage.  Even the largest of piano libraries load up and play well off an external SSD.  

[Reezekeys]

1 hour ago, ElmerJFudd said:

 Even the largest of piano libraries load up and play well off an external SSD.  

 

Not positive on the timeline but around 15-18 years ago I was playing the NI "Akoustik Piano" multi-GB library off a 7200 rpm spinning-platter Toshiba 2.5" drive in an external Firewire 400 case, with no issues. A much slower computer as well, of course (the last Apple G4 Powerbook).

 

Some people think you need thunderbolt 4 enclosures & drives for audio work - or they're worried they'll have problems if they don't get the latest, greatest, fastest, etc. interface & SSD. It's "what if"... "you never know"... "good to future-proof"... etc. Spend the money I say - it's yours to spend. The peace of mind is obviously worth it to those folks. I'm confident my little 1TB Intel 660P gumstick I bought for $40, inside the $18 USB 3.1 case, is going to serve my needs just fine. So far so good, anyway. Obviously if you're doing video work at 4K or 8K, or mocking up movie scores at 192Khz, the equation changes - but that's definitely not me!

[ElmerJFudd]

1 hour ago, Reezekeys said:

 

Not positive on the timeline but around 15-18 years ago I was playing the NI "Akoustik Piano" multi-GB library off a 7200 rpm spinning-platter Toshiba 2.5" drive in an external Firewire 400 case, with no issues. A much slower computer as well, of course (the last Apple G4 Powerbook).

 

Some people think you need thunderbolt 4 enclosures & drives for audio work - or they're worried they'll have problems if they don't get the latest, greatest, fastest, etc. interface & SSD. It's "what if"... "you never know"... "good to future-proof"... etc. Spend the money I say - it's yours to spend. The peace of mind is obviously worth it to those folks. I'm confident my little 1TB Intel 660P gumstick I bought for $40, inside the $18 USB 3.1 case, is going to serve my needs just fine. So far so good, anyway. Obviously if you're doing video work at 4K or 8K, or mocking up movie scores at 192Khz, the equation changes - but that's definitely not me!

I never had any trouble from disc speed for large piano libraries - even back in the spinning days.  However 7200 vs 5400 did make a difference in load times. Also, I am trying to remember what was loaded into RAM and what was direct from disk 10+ years ago.  Either way, SSD - much much better.  
 

My issue with G4 was high polyphony low latency.  Sustain pedal use was not always great on big libraries back then when you wanted latency low.  

[B4i]

I currently use an M1 Mac mini mounted on pedalboard using an iPad pro as a screen via USB c using Duet Display. The iPad sits on the end of my Nord Stage. Its neat and out the way

 

Previously i used a Macbook Pro (2013). Where to put it was always a bit of a pain. I settled on an x stand behind the Nord Stage. 

 

Performance wise the M1 is obviously faster, but the 2013 pro did the job. The mounting improvement moving to the mini was the biggest improvement

[BluMunk]

If your budget is zero and you have both options available... I'd test both at home, and if both get the job done pick the one that feels right. It sounds like you'd sacrifice some functionality if you went with the M1 because of some software that doesn't function in the new architecture? In that case, stick with the Intel Mac. There's no reason to go with the newer machine if you don't need to.

 

(as a side note, I just listened to the video in your sig... very cool and impressive!)

[StansHands]

I use a MacBook Air M2 with 8g Ram/256 memory; stick my laptop, Focusrite soundcard, USB hub, and an iPad for ForScore, on a standard music stand; no need for AC for a 3 hour gig as my Keylab and Focusrite run on USB power from the Mac. Mac is running MainStage with Analog lab and UVI Grand as plugins. No problem yet.

 

Strap the Keylab to my back, QSC K8 in one hand, bag with wires & electronics in the other, and I'm in and out. Keyboard stand, bench, and music stand on second trip, or use my cart for all, fitting it in my Mini Cooper..Enough room for a groupie too. I travel small and light - dragged around too much gear in big cars for too long

[AnotherScott]

59 minutes ago, BluMunk said:

If your budget is zero and you have both options available... I'd test both at home, and if both get the job done pick the one that feels right.

Yeah, I might do that. It's time consuming, so I wanted to consider all the variables first.

 

I had thought it would be nice to configure a single boot drive that I could attach to either one, to test the exact same config running on one or the other (or use either one at any time), just by booting either Mac from the same drive, but as it turns out, it is not possible to create an external boot drive that will work on both an M1 Mac and an Intel Mac. I'm looking into the possibility of creating a user home folder that resides on such an external, though.

 

59 minutes ago, BluMunk said:

It sounds like you'd sacrifice some functionality if you went with the M1 because of some software that doesn't function in the new architecture? In that case, stick with the Intel Mac. There's no reason to go with the newer machine if you don't need to.

though apart from any possible performance difference, there were also some advantages to the Macbook approach that have been discussed (i.e. built-in battery backup, keyboard, trackpad... all things that should not be needed, but could be nice to have for any time something unpredictable happens).

 

59 minutes ago, BluMunk said:

(as a side note, I just listened to the video in your sig... very cool and impressive!)

thanks!

[Stokely]

Not sure what internal drive my 2016 MBP has (I'm on my work computer), but when I moved libraries like Garritan's CFX Lite to external 3.1 usb ssd the difference was massive.  Loading times went from 2-3 minutes to 10-15 seconds.

Certainly loading times weren't as annoying on smaller libraries, even the "lite" version of that plugin is large if you use the good quality samples.

[RABid]

I would never depend on a a Mac internal drive of less than one TB. It is a constant battle for space. I always use the option, when given, to install samples and other data to external drives. NI and Spectrasonics are good about this. Akai MPC software will not let you specify external drives for samples, and now they have started hiding storage location to keep the user from moving it. So with NI Komplete, a bunch of Spectrasonics, Ableton Live Studio, Bitwig Studio, Reason 12, Logic Pro, FL Studio 21, Roland Cloud and a few others, despite moving as much as I can to an external 4TB drive velcroed to the back of my monitor, this is the info from my internal drive. Glad I decided to step up to 1TB, which is what I had on my previous MacBookPro 6 years ago.

 

[ElmerJFudd]

8 hours ago, B4i said:

I currently use an M1 Mac mini mounted on pedalboard using an iPad pro as a screen via USB c using Duet Display. The iPad sits on the end of my Nord Stage. Its neat and out the way

 

Previously i used a Macbook Pro (2013). Where to put it was always a bit of a pain. I settled on an x stand behind the Nord Stage. 

 

Performance wise the M1 is obviously faster, but the 2013 pro did the job. The mounting improvement moving to the mini was the biggest improvement

Is there a way to toggle between the view of the Mini’s Finder and the iPad’s own interface? 

[AnotherScott]

13 minutes ago, ElmerJFudd said:

Is there a way to toggle between the view of the Mini’s Finder and the iPad’s own interface? 

yes. Anything that lets you use the iPad as a Mac screen does it using an iPad app as the remote viewer (there is no way to use an iPad without it running its installed OS and its native apps at some level), so all you have to do is switch out of the remote viewing app to access whatever other iPad app you want to access (or its home screen, whatever),  the same way you switch out of any other app. I'm thinking that the best approach, if you have a compatible iPad model, is probably to use Stage Manager, to most quickly switch between the Mac Mini screen and whatever iPad apps you might commonly need to get to.

[David Emm]

1 hour ago, RABid said:

I would never depend on a a Mac internal drive of less than one TB. It is a constant battle for space. I always us the option, when given, to install samples and other data to external drives. NI and Spectrasonics are good about this. Akai MPC software will not let you specify external drives for samples, and now they have started hiding storage location to keep the user from moving it. So with NI Komplete, a bunch of Spectrasonics, Ableton Live Studio, Bitwig Studio, Reason 12, Logic Pro, FL Studio 21, Roland Cloud and a few others, despite moving as much as I can to an external 4TB drive velcroed to the back of my monitor, this is the info from my internal drive. Glad I decided to step up to 1TB, which is what I had on my previous MacBookPro 6 years ago.

 

 

Boy, are you singing my song! With only 500 GB internally, I'm having to dance around like a wombat on a hot sidewalk. I'm hating it, because my general work flow would be pretty happy with 1 TB. Making outboard safeties, sure; having my internal doings depend on external drives, GNARGH! Its working just fine, but it still keeps me a bit nervous. As I growl and stash money for a bigger Mac, I'm even considering taking the hit for 2 TB. Its a bitter pill in one sense, but growing pains are called pains for a reason. I wish I knew how to synthesize a little more peace of mind! 😜🤨

[LarsHarner]

I purchased 2 years ago a M1 with 64gb and 2 TB- I find it helpful to have those specs for when I am in Studio one and have multiple different VST's available on different tracks.

I would have gone to 4TB but at that point had spent enough. I was originally using my normal Intel 16gb computer for music but would have dropouts sometime.

 

I do have a external thunderbolt SSD, I am wondering would I still have a seamless experience if I put any libraries on that. 

 

[Reezekeys]

I'm curious what kind of projects you're doing - as far as track count and number/types of VSTs – that led you to think you needed 64GB of ram. That is quite a lot of ram for audio work!

[AnotherScott]

Here's a new wrinkle to the Mac Mini vs. Macbook question... As far as I can tell, with any method of using an iPad as the one and only screen for a "headless" Mac Mini, the Mini has to be set for Automatic Login (no passcode). That's fine when I'm doing remote access, i.e. my Mini is safe at home. But if the Mini is going to be at the gig, there is some chance of theft, and if that happened, I would not want someone else to be able to get into it without a passcode. So that means having to boot the Mac with a real monitor every time. That's a nuisance with the Mini, where you'd have to bring in, power up, and wire up the monitor to get it going, and keep it available in case you need it in event of a power glitch, none of which is an issue with a Macbook.

[ElmerJFudd]

9 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

Here's a new wrinkle to the Mac Mini vs. Macbook question... As far as I can tell, with any method of using an iPad as the one and only screen for a "headless" Mac Mini, the Mini has to be set for Automatic Login (no passcode). That's fine when I'm doing remote access, i.e. my Mini is safe at home. But if the Mini is going to be at the gig, there is some chance of theft, and if that happened, I would not want someone else to be able to get into it without a passcode. So that means having to boot the Mac with a real monitor every time. That's a nuisance with the Mini, where you'd have to bring in, power up, and wire up the monitor to get it going, and keep it available in case you need it in event of a power glitch, none of which is an issue with a Macbook.

https://www.maclocks.com/macmini-security-cable-lock-a.html

[AnotherScott]

9 hours ago, ElmerJFudd said:

https://www.maclocks.com/macmini-security-cable-lock-a.html

 A security lock doesn't help without my also having something sufficiently non-steal-able to lock it down to. 🙂 I look for anything I gig with to be as light and as fast to set up as possible. That's not compatible with bringing the Mini pre-mounted to something hard to steal, or somehow mounting it to something after I'm there (which, as an aside, can also still lead to periods of vulnerability). The Mac would not be 100% dedicated to music (as I said, these are Macs I already have at my disposal from other usage), which is why I realized that the possibility of someone getting into them w/o a passcode could be a concern.

[D. Gauss]

IMO, so much stuff all cobbled together, and more chances for things to go wrong?  Perhaps, ignoring evil Apple and their crippled, "we think our users are idiots", eco-system, and going to the dark side of Windoze and a single box is the simpler solution?   i.e. internal slot for adding second internal SSD (yeah Apple, you suck on that point alone), blazing fast CPU, thunderbolt, ports, ports, and more ports (talking to you Apple and yer shitty single port nonsense). During the pandemic lockdown, I went from a Macbook Pro to something similar to this and run my whole studio off it. Costs a third of what my Mac did.  I have no allegiance to either Mac or PC, they both suck, but more and more Apple seems to be sucking more money out of you and giving you less.

 

https://www.microcenter.com/product/676655/lenovo-thinkpad-e16-gen-1-16-laptop-computer-graphite-black

 

The one above is kinda big (16"), but there's also smaller screen versions with touchscreen as well.

[ElmerJFudd]

1 hour ago, AnotherScott said:

 A security lock doesn't help without my also having something sufficiently non-steal-able to lock it down to. 🙂 I look for anything I gig with to be as light and as fast to set up as possible. That's not compatible with bringing the Mini pre-mounted to something hard to steal, or somehow mounting it to something after I'm there (which, as an aside, can also still lead to periods of vulnerability). The Mac would not be 100% dedicated to music (as I said, these are Macs I already have at my disposal from other usage), which is why I realized that the possibility of someone getting into them w/o a passcode could be a concern.

Ya I was thinking what would I lock it to.  Was also thinking maybe racking a Mini - in which case, I’d lock it to the rack.  But even then theft is always possible, even if unlikely. 
 

I also tend to use my MacBook on wall

power, set it not to go to Lock Screen while I’m using it, not to sleep the display while I’m using it, etc.  So same problem - I guess if I’m not able to sit with it, I pick it up and keep it with me - which I also do with the iPad.   The mini is pretty small, I suppose you can bag it and keep it on your shoulder in those situations where you are on break.  

[ElmerJFudd]

22 minutes ago, D. Gauss said:

IMO, so much stuff all cobbled together, and more chances for things to go wrong?  Perhaps, ignoring evil Apple and their crippled, "we think our users are idiots", eco-system, and going to the dark side of Windoze and a single box is the simpler solution?   i.e. internal slot for adding second internal SSD (yeah Apple, you suck on that point alone), blazing fast CPU, thunderbolt, ports, ports, and more ports (talking to you Apple and yer shitty single port nonsense). During the pandemic lockdown, I went from a Macbook Pro to something similar to this and run my whole studio off it. Costs a third of what my Mac did.  I have no allegiance to either Mac or PC, they both suck, but more and more Apple seems to be sucking more money out of you and giving you less.

 

https://www.microcenter.com/product/676655/lenovo-thinkpad-e16-gen-1-16-laptop-computer-graphite-black

 

The one above is kinda big (16"), but there's also smaller screen versions with touchscreen as well.

$999 is $999.  The thinkpad only avoids apples prices on RAM and storage.  But you don’t “need” a 1tb ssd and 32gb of RAM to run MainStage which is $30 - all sound and fx included.  As opposed to building a VST ccllection and buying Cantabile or GigPerforner.  

[D. Gauss]

5 minutes ago, ElmerJFudd said:

$999 is $999.  The thinkpad only avoids apples prices on RAM and storage.  But you don’t “need” a 1tb ssd and 32gb of RAM to run MainStage which is $30 - all sound and fx included.  As opposed to building a VST ccllection and buying Cantabile or GigPerforner.  

 

He said he was considering his Windoze surface, so I figured he already had the software as well.

[AnotherScott]

29 minutes ago, ElmerJFudd said:

Ya I was thinking what would I lock it to.  Was also thinking maybe racking a Mini - in which case, I’d lock it to the rack.

I don't even use a rack. Again, my approach is small/light/fast. That's why I'm talking about just dropping the Mac into this 6 ounce stand that would be on the floor under my keys... 

 

 

 

29 minutes ago, ElmerJFudd said:

I also tend to use my MacBook on wall power, set it not to go to Lock Screen while I’m using it, not to sleep the display while I’m using it, etc.  So same problem

 

You can set it so that, only when on battery, it goes to the lock screen after one minute. So if someone were to unplug it and walk off with it, there would only be a one minute window where they could possibly get into it. You can also choose to intentionally lock it whenever you walk away from it. The problem with doing that on a headless Mini (no wired monitor) is that you can't unlock it without attaching a monitor. On a Macbook, the monitor is always there if you need it.

 

 

14 minutes ago, D. Gauss said:

49 minutes ago, D. Gauss said:

https://www.microcenter.com/product/676655/lenovo-thinkpad-e16-gen-1-16-laptop-computer-graphite-black

 

The one above is kinda big (16"), but there's also smaller screen versions with touchscreen as well.

21 minutes ago, ElmerJFudd said:

$999 is $999.  The thinkpad only avoids apples prices on RAM and storage.  But you don’t “need” a 1tb ssd and 32gb of RAM to run MainStage which is $30 - all sound and fx included.  As opposed to building a VST ccllection and buying Cantabile or GigPerforner.  

 

He said he was considering his Windoze surface, so I figured he already had the software as well.

 

I'm not looking to buy a new computer here, so the only Windows option would be the Surface Pro 7.  I do have music software for it, but no library as extensive as what's in Mainstage... though I don't necessarily need that. 

[ElmerJFudd]

1 hour ago, D. Gauss said:

 

He said he was considering his Windoze surface, so I figured he already had the software as well.

Forumite counterpoint is successfully using his Surface Pro as his VST rig.  I like that it is a tablet and as such can fold and do double duty as sheet music or chart reader (the resolution, not being 16:9 works well for a page of music).   I wish Apple would do the same with the MacBooks (convertible with touch screen) and negate the need to also use an iPad.  Or better yet, just bring MainStage to iPad OS.  

[The Real MC]

Not sure if anyone mentioned this, but starting in 2016 MB/MBP the SSD and internal RAM can no longer be upgraded.  Those components are soldered to the mainboard and there's no expansion ports.  Plan as much SSD/RAM space that you will need and order it through Apple when you purchase the MB, because it has to be built to order out of the factory.

 

I doubt that custom MB orders can be done though Walmart or Best Buy, they probably only offer the base model. 

[ElmerJFudd]

1 minute ago, The Real MC said:

Not sure if anyone mentioned this, but starting in 2016 MB/MBP the SSD and internal RAM can no longer be upgraded.  Those components are soldered to the mainboard and there's no expansion ports.  Plan as much SSD/RAM space that you will need and order it through Apple when you purchase the MB, because it has to be built to order out of the factory.

 

I doubt that custom MB orders can be done though Walmart or Best Buy, they probably only offer the base model. 

That’s quite true.  There is a performance gain with the SoC. But you have to get the upgrade upfront if you need it.  Windows machines using an SoC will be doing the same.  

[Ibarch]

3 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

 

 

3 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

I'm not looking to buy a new computer here, so the only Windows option would be the Surface Pro 7.  I do have music software for it, but no library as extensive as what's in Mainstage... though I don't necessarily need that. 

 

If you were considering the Surface, Steinberg's VST Live may be worth a look. It is a VST Host built around a set list, with a lot more besides. It's far cheaper than the likes of Gig Performer, at about $60. It also includes a light version of Steinberg's Halion Sonic and a couple of their other instruments which could fill out that library. 

 

 

I've watched this topic from a distance, as not had much to add. From my experience, the best format of computer to gig with is a tablet. A laptop or mini mac style box just don't make it easy. Most of the posts have helped to confirm this. Unfortunately for those wedded to Apple hardware /software a MacOS tablet doesn't look an option that is ever going to be available.

 

I'm currently repurposing the screen from my old Microsoft surface book 2 laptop for use as a 13.5 inch tablet. This is the one that was detachable from the main body. A power surge destroyed the body a while ago but as the screen held the processor, memory and SSD, it has become a giant Windows tablet. With an 8th gen i7 chip and 16GB ram it is not a bad option. It seems to perform well enough running my Fantom patches via the magic of Zenology Pro. 

 

One thing that makes it work is the virtual touch pad. I can't believe I've only just discovered this given how long I've used a Surface Pro for. Suddenly the thought of delving into the depths of Windows plugin screens with just a touch screen and no attached mouse or track pad has got a lot less scary. 

 

Windows may not be to everyone's taste and is far from perfect but having a full computer available in tablet form is pretty amazing. No worries over headless PCs and the like here. 

 

[AnotherScott]

20 minutes ago, Ibarch said:

From my experience, the best format of computer to gig with is a tablet. A laptop or mini mac style box just don't make it easy...Unfortunately for those wedded to Apple hardware /software a MacOS tablet doesn't look an option that is every going to be available.

I agree, I want the tablet format for any live display or interaction.  And what started me even considering a Mac here was discovering how well Jump Desktop let me use my Mac from a remote iPad, something I discovered for an entirely different application, but I realized could make a Mac-based gig environment more feasible. Though I have yet to try actually running a music environment that way to confirm there won't be some unpleasant surprise.

 

 

[D. Gauss]

8 hours ago, The Real MC said:

Not sure if anyone mentioned this, but starting in 2016 MB/MBP the SSD and internal RAM can no longer be upgraded.  Those components are soldered to the mainboard and there's no expansion ports.  

 

Apple sucks more and more every day. Jobs was a major, albeit talented, dick, but even he wouldn't have let it get this bad.