Do I need a DI?

[rockinredeye]

My Kurzweil PC4 has balanced outs and a hot signal. Plugging mono TRS to XLR directly from instrument to PA, I can only move the volume slider to about halfway. Any further and I get overload distortion. Been playing like this for years but would a DI box help? Miraculously give me a strong, clean signal? I don’t really want to pay $250 for a Jensen just for a -15db pad. So, keep the volume at half or go for the DI?

[Baldwin Funster]

A di box with a 20 dB pad might help. It's the pad not the other stuff that's would possibly help. A stereo pad wouldn't really be cheaper than a di box with pads so you might as well get the di box. I got a stereo di box from monoprice for about $40.

[erik_nie]

No you don't. The -20db reduction is identical to lowering your volume slider.
Adding DI- transformers will always impact your signal (the best ones will be 99% transparent).
Improving with a DI box is not possible. Or you can use it as a effects-box that add's some distortion/warmth...
Perhaps you can pad the input from your mixer, or buy a cheap balanced attenuator (like on amazon, search "20db Balanced XLR Attenuator") that has no transformer.
Other solution is to buy a mixer that has balanced out: like Rolls pm351, that gives you also the option to mix you monitor/in-ear.

I played for 30 years in many band/stages and never needed/owned a DI box. In bigger shows in the early days, the sound guys brings his DIs.  Now most mixers are digital and have stageboxes. When the length of your cable is less than 10m (30ft), balanced is not even needed.
You already have balanced out from the Kurzweil, so you are set for long cables. Why bring something extra that cost money, extra setup time and if active you need to take care of the powersupply/battery.

This is in the Netherlands, where power is almost always stable and okay (Expect for once where there was 380V on the 230V line and 50% of the fuses blown of all our equipement, now we have power tester and a big set of spare fuses). And for live use. Being audible as a keyboard player with a hired soundengineer (Withi focus on drum/guitar/voice)  is already a challenge...

  
If you talk about high shows or television, buy the best DI (Radial) just to be sure.
 

YMMV!!!
 

[ABECK]

If you are using 1/4" outs to a DI, to your PA, the level shouldn't be significantly louder than any other line level keyboard.  I'm wondering if the XLRs are inherently hotter?  I'm assuming there's no pad on the channel inputs of the PA.  Maybe the mic pres on the board are adding something?  My K2700 isn't any hotter than my other boards (running 1/4 to a DI).

 

As an aside, my Radial Dual DI is the once piece of my rig that I would replace instantly if lost or broken.  I never use house DIs.

[Stokely]

Yeah I wouldn't think you need one either.   I don't think a passive DI is going to "clean up" a signal, if anything it might take something away though I've never noticed that happening.

Agreed with ABECK that something seems a bit odd.  Maybe the mixer preamp gains are set too high?   I used a Kurzweil pc3 for many gigs and I don't recall the levels being overly hot.  In fact, I think I raised them in the master settings--which might be something to take a look at if the PC4 has the same thing.   It may be that those master output levels got turned way up, which likely isn't the best for gain staging.   Halfway up on a master isn't that weird--I never turn one all the way up--but it does seem weird that you'd get distortion (I presume that is mixer preamp distortion?) that quickly.  I'd want more headroom to ensure that never happens.

[Tusker]

6 hours ago, rockinredeye said:

Plugging mono TRS to XLR directly from instrument to PA, I can only move the volume slider to about halfway. Any further and I get overload distortion.

 

I guess I would ask if the distortion is happening at the output stage of the instrument or the input stage of the PA. 

[Delaware Dave]

Try this inline attenuator, if you dont like it just return it.

 

Link

[Michael Wright]

Everybody needs a Di in their kit.  Don't rely of others to have one.  Cheers Mike  

[ElmerJFudd]

No pad switch on the mixer? 

[Stokely]

Again I've never seen a keyboard so hot that a pad is needed on a mixer input, and certainly not if only halfway up.  If anything, they tend to be a bit low, mine have all been lower than if I use a submixer like a Key Largo as an additional gain stage (which is understandable, it's another amp!).   Something must be cranked up somewhere above the norm, or else it's an actual malfunction.  I'd try plugging into something else, as stated above you need to isolate what is causing the issue.

[SMcD]

What is the advantage that a DI box has over, say, just turning down the volume on either the keyboard or the mixer?

 

My Soundcraft 12FX has line-level TRS inputs; I would think that'd be pretty common on most mixers.

[Reezekeys]

11 hours ago, rockinredeye said:

My Kurzweil PC4 has balanced outs and a hot signal. Plugging mono TRS to XLR directly from instrument to PA, I can only move the volume slider to about halfway. Any further and I get overload distortion. Been playing like this for years but would a DI box help? Miraculously give me a strong, clean signal? I don’t really want to pay $250 for a Jensen just for a -15db pad. So, keep the volume at half or go for the DI?

 

Do the input channels on the PA have a pad? Or at least a trim control you can adjust? If so and you've reduced the input sensitivity as much as you can, then yes a passive DI should reduce the signal level. You might try a mono (TS) cable from an output on the Kurz to a DI, then feed the PA mixer from the DI and see if that helps. I don't know enough about how DIs with transformers function with a very hot input though - could be you'd oversaturate the transformers. Any around to borrow and try?

 

 

[jazzpiano88]

5 hours ago, ABECK said:

I'm wondering if the XLRs are inherently hotter?

 

That's often the case that the keyboard XLRs are pro line level (+4dBu) and the 1/4 outs are consumer line level (-10dBV).   

Depending on your mixer one could be adding noise by inserting a pad and upping the gain (amplifying noise).

[CEB]

I need DIs.  But most likely I would not need one for this problem.   This sounds like the gain staging is whacked.  But the pad might solve your problem if you can’t figure out the gain staging.   DIs solve other problems. 

You don’t need a $250 DI. 

[Baldwin Funster]

1 hour ago, CEB said:

You don’t need a $250 DI. 

Personally I don't think anyone needs a $250 di, especially for live sound. For a recording date yeah that avalon preamp I see everywhere probably is better than the guitar center brand DI box. I still wouldn't blink if I went to a studio and they used $40 Di boxes if the playback was good.

[D. Gauss]

13 hours ago, rockinredeye said:

 balanced outs and a hot signal. Plugging mono TRS to XLR directly from instrument to PA, I can only move the volume slider to about halfway. Any further and I get overload distortion.  

 

a picture is a 1000 words (i.e. what mixer?), but lacking that, from what you say, you're plugging a line out into a mic level in. It will distort without a pad. If no pad, plug it into a 1/4" line input. That's what it is there for.

[jazzpiano88]

This is a Swiss army knife that I use for keyboards.  Radial JDI Duplex.  It pretty much does everything needed to connect into any live or studio sound.  Good to have in your tool kit.     Has the 20dB pad for XLR +4 DBu and switchable 15dB pad for 1/4" / RCA / 1/8" -10dBV as well as other nice bells and whistles, not to mention the Jensen transformer.     And it's stereo with sum to mono option.   Built like it's mil-spec.  

 

https://www.radialeng.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/DuplexMK5-Manual-WEB-09-2021.pdf

 

 

 

EDIT:  Ooops I see the OP had already considered something like this.  I'll leave it up in case it helps any others. 

[JohnH]

Yes you do. I've been using this one for a long time. On my second one. The ground lift is really helpful, but I don't need it often. 

 

https://www.artproaudio.com/product/dpdb-dual-passive-direct-box/

[ABECK]

On 3/14/2024 at 3:08 AM, rockinredeye said:

My Kurzweil PC4 has balanced outs and a hot signal. Plugging mono TRS to XLR directly from instrument to PA

OK - I read this wrong and assumed you were going XLR out of the PC4 (then I was baffled because PC4 does not have XLR out).  So, it looks like you have 1/4 TRS to XLR cables going to your PA.  I'm not a fan of those types of cables over just using a DI.  Having 1/4 thru on my DIs is always a nice option if I want to run my own powered monitor.

 

[Baldwin Funster]

Delete.

[Reezekeys]

I like this person's answer, which I found with a quick google search: https://community.gigperformer.com/t/1-4-trs-xlr-male-for-audio-interfaces/2582/6

[eric]

15 hours ago, jazzpiano88 said:

This is a Swiss army knife that I use for keyboards.  Radial JDI Duplex.  It pretty much does everything needed to connect into any live or studio sound.  Good to have in your tool kit.     Has the 20dB pad for XLR +4 DBu and switchable 15dB pad for 1/4" / RCA / 1/8" -10dBV as well as other nice bells and whistles, not to mention the Jensen transformer.     And it's stereo with sum to mono option.   Built like it's mil-spec.  

 

https://www.radialeng.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/DuplexMK5-Manual-WEB-09-2021.pdf

 

 

 

EDIT:  Ooops I see the OP had already considered something like this.  I'll leave it up in case it helps any others. 

 

This is a GREAT DI box. I used one for many years in my live rig and still have it. The only reason I am not currently using it is because I have a Radial Key Largo in my rehearsal rack and Radial KL-8 in my gig rack...which both cover the DI aspect built into the mixer.

 

I've always been a fan of DI boxes and have had them as part of my rig going back 35 years...there are times when having the ground lift can be a lifesaver, and I've found that sound engineers smile when they don't have to supply the keyboard player with DI boxes. They rarely smile otherwise. LOL. I'm halfway kidding.  

[Reezekeys]

Nobody here has stated what I think is the obvious, regarding the issue that prompted rockinredeye to start this thread. Do you remember this part?: I don’t really want to pay $250 for a Jensen just for a -15db pad.

 

I think any decent DI box would be ideal – i.e., one does not need to spend $250 to simply pad down a signal. It seems the time-honored tradition here is to help spend as much of someone else's money as possible! 🙂

 

IMO, "moving the volume slider to about halfway" might be just fine! Yes it's not "proper" gain staging. However, unless the Kurz's analog output stage is inherently noisy, I doubt it's going to have any sonic impact on a gig.

 

The fact remains that going directly into a PA means you're giving up some control over how you might monitor your instrument. I think it's better to use a DI for the obvious reason of having a pass-through to your own monitor setup that you control. However, we haven't heard from rockinredeye as to whether this is a problem for them.

[piano39]

stupid question…. Can the problem be solved by simply using the 1/4” input on the mixer instead of the XLR? The mic pre on the mixer may be in play.

[Reezekeys]

I mentioned that in an earlier reply. Depends on the board but some have sweepable trim contols and/or pads so the XLR input can accomodate -10 or maybe even +4 level signals. That would be the very first thing I'd check.

[jazzpiano88]

38 minutes ago, Reezekeys said:

Nobody here has stated what I think is the obvious, regarding the issue that prompted rockinredeye to start this thread. Do you remember this part?: I don’t really want to pay $250 for a Jensen just for a -15db pad.

I did.  “  Ooops I see the OP had already considered something like this.  I'll leave it up in case it helps any others.”

I added it a few minutes after posting on the radial. 

[eric]

49 minutes ago, Reezekeys said:

Nobody here has stated what I think is the obvious, regarding the issue that prompted rockinredeye to start this thread. Do you remember this part?: I don’t really want to pay $250 for a Jensen just for a -15db pad.

 

Yeah, I kinda glossed over that in my zest to recommend Radial as a great option...I tend to view this as an investment that is helpful for most anyone to have in their arsenal for the long term. It doesn't have to be the quasi-boutique Radial option. I think DI boxes make things simpler in general and I guess it really depends on the quantity and variety of venues you're playing, to decide if you want to have your own DI, whether it be a $40 DI or a $250 DI.

[CEB]

The misnomer is the need for a $250 DI for weekend warrior gigs. It is probably a waste of money.  A Behringer Ultra DI would be perfectly fine for this.   It depends on applications.  

PS - I cross posted with Eric. Listen to Eric.  

[ABECK]

16 minutes ago, CEB said:

The misnomer is a $250 DI for weekend warrior gigs is probably a waste of money.  A Behringer Ultra DI would be perfectly fine for this.   It depends on applications.  

PS - I cross posted with Eric. Listen to Eric.  

I have an old whirlwind DI that cost $80.  Had it for 20 years and it works fine. 
I don't think $250 on a DI is a waste though.  If you have a $1k-$4K instrument, how much sense does it make to cheap out in the last mile?

[Reezekeys]

51 minutes ago, ABECK said:

If you have a $1k-$4K instrument, how much sense does it make to cheap out in the last mile?

 

Not to bust on you in particular – but while what you're saying makes sense, lots of folks here seem to have no problem sending a phasey summed stereo signal to a mono PA, or just the L or R output. Will a $250 DI box make that "last mile" sound better? Go to any gig anywhere and tell me you can hear the quality of the DI boxes used. There's a hell of a lot more going on in the signal chain that can eff up the sound. A shit sound engineer will do a lot more damage than a cheap DI box imo!

 

if you're recording live in a top-flight recording studio, you want your A+ game when it comes to sound quality so maybe one of those Radials makes sense. Those kinds of studios are probably well-equipped with quality DI boxes to begin with - at least I've always found that to be the case the few times I've done those kinds of sessions.