Best way to sum to mono (live)

[Floyd Tatum]

12 hours ago, Reezekeys said:

Your thought that the L&R samples are examined then mapped for mono beforehand makes total sense. It still begs the question - how does Nord determine which sample 'half' sounds best? And would this work for user samples or only ones from the factory? (Nord lets you load in your own samples, correct?).

These are more or less rhetorical Qs - none of this affects me, since I hardly ever encounter a mono PA system for the gigs where I'm actually going into a PA. I am curious to know if some super-nerd software engineer has made an algorithm that can look at a stereo sample and determine which side sounds "best"! 🙂 

I believe those super-nerdy Nord engineers might have such an algorithm at their disposal - they're called ears.   😁😉😊

[cphollis]

The mono button on the NS4 appears to do an incrementally better job summing to mono than the NS3.  I was playing both side-by-side for a while, trying to figure out the differences between the two.  It might have been some other factor other than "algorithm", e.g. a better-sounding DAC etc.

 

The NS3 mono function was pretty good to begin with.  The pianos had body, the leslie warbled appropriately, etc.

 

Very few bar band gigs are mono any more, as lots of guitarists are using stereo FX and have figured out this whole L and R thing.

[Reezekeys]

12 minutes ago, Delaware Dave said:

So in regard to ABECKS question of summing stereo to mono, the answer is ...........   ?

 

I think there isn't any one answer, only answers for each indvidual player. For me it's easy because I rarely encounter mono PAs. None of my sounds have any components that are hard-panned left or right except for my rhodes when I put a stereo tremolo on it (I've reduced the "width" of that effect so it's not too pronounced). I'm fully aware that some folks in the audience won't be in the sweet spot and won't get 100% of the wonderfullness of my bitchen stereo samples, but so what? I think that's a better compromise than having phase-cancelled sound coming out both sides of the PA!

 

The bottom line – again, speaking only for myself (and I know what this makes me sound like!) – is that I'm not going to rejigger my live setup with different, more mono-compatible sounds because I think there may be some hyper-critical listeners in the crowd that will somehow be disappointed and think me a lesser player. Truth is that's not gonna happen. Unless you're playing a solo concert, Joe & Jane Q Public are not going to know or give half a damn about the phase relationships of your keyboard's audio. They're listening  to a band. They're watching the guitarist make faces and the lead singer dance around the stage. I kid a little but I really do believe that if the music is happening, the stuff we're discussing in this thread is pretty insignificant in the bigger picture. Use the keyboard and sounds that make you happy, enjoy yourself on the gig, and as far as the FOH sound - hope for a good PA system, hope for a decent soundperson, then let the chips fall where they may. What else can you do? A few hours and it's history, onward to the next "phase debacle"! 🙂 

[AnotherScott]

25 minutes ago, cphollis said:

Very few bar band gigs are mono any more, as lots of guitarists are using stereo FX and have figured out this whole L and R thing.

 

Bar bands don't typically put (electric) guitar through the PA. Or likely the keys, for that matter, unless the keyboard player owns the PA. 😉

 

18 minutes ago, Reezekeys said:

 

I think there isn't any one answer, only answers for each indvidual player. For me it's easy because I rarely encounter mono PAs. None of my sounds have any components that are hard-panned left or right except for my rhodes when I put a stereo tremolo on it (I've reduced the "width" of that effect so it's not too pronounced). I'm fully aware that some folks in the audience won't be in the sweet spot and won't get 100% of the wonderfullness of my bitchen stereo samples, but so what? I think that's a better compromise than having phase-cancelled sound coming out both sides of the PA!

 

Yes... if you're sticking with stereo for yourself and you're going into a stereo PA, I agree that you want to avoid hard-panning of pieces of your sounds. I think the complication is that, while you may rarely encounter mono PAs, that's not everyone's situation. If you want stereo for your stage gear, and you're going into a PA that's mono, I think it's probably best to send just one side of your stereo to the house. As long as you follow that rule of no components being hard-panned, nothing is going to be terribly lost, and at least then you don't have to worry about whether a sound becomes problematic if collapsed to mono.

[hrestov]

Yes, but also if you use stereo a 30% of crowd will listen only L and 30% only R, because you mainly listen the nearer speaker.  A 40% listen both, but I think only 10/20% could listen both in a good stereo sweet spot. (Obviously it depends from the gig and the speakers position). 
So finally the question could be not which is the best way to get a mono good sound, but which keyboard have a good sound also if you listen only one side, because most people will listen only one side. 
For me nord pianos is not good if you only listen one side. They are too much wide. Yamaha is less wide. Roland and Korg and other I don’t know. 

[The Real MC]

On 2/9/2024 at 2:08 PM, CEB said:

Not sure if it’s relevant but I monitor my Keyboard submix in mono even when to FOH is stereo. and it sounds great. I use Shure mono mix mode. This is the easiest way for me to take a monitor send from a desk that has no keyboards and mix in my keys myself and have great control over hearing myself. 
 

Maybe because I personally test all my sounds sounds with a mono mix helped me avoid any issues.  

I do the same thing.  Stereo to FOH, at my stage mixer I route stereo sources to a mono aux buss then send to my mono monitor.  I get a separate monitor send from FOH with no keys and run that in the same monitor with keys.  That way I always have control of my keys in my monitor.

I also personally test my stereo patches in mono.  The worse offenders seem to be piano, Rhodes, Wurly.  Stereo synth patches sound OK in mono (I use my own stereo processing patches), but some on board stereo piano sounds just sound terrible in mono.  It's not just phase cancellation, but the stereo processing put in mono causes tone suck that is embarrassing to play.  I found that most stereo chorus presets in FX units sound awful in mono.  I programmed a lovely Rhodes stereo tremolo - tremolo disappears in mono.  I programmed a piano sound that duplicates the string scaling of a real piano - single vs dual vs triple stringing with some slight panning.  Great in stereo, awful in mono.

 

DPs seem to be notorious for this.  I used to play in a jazz band at work, they provided the Yamaha CP33 and Roland keyboard amp.  Stereo piano into mono amp just never sounded right, not even just a sole left or right output.  One day I tried the mono piano - huge improvement.  Even with that Roland amp that everybody loves 

 

Guitar amps/modelers have the same problem too.

[AnotherScott]

5 minutes ago, The Real MC said:

I also personally test my stereo patches in mono.  The worse offenders seem to be piano, Rhodes, Wurly.  

Piano is understandable, but the EPs are inherently mono instruments to begin with, the samples should be mono (except maybe for some unusual in-room mikings), so the only thing that would be stereo would be any stereo effects you apply. And of course, any such effect that depends on motion (like auto-pan) isn't going to give you that effect, regardless of whether you sum (which should yield a sound with no perceptible effect) or you take just one channel (where instead the sound would appear to come and go).

[CEB]

The problem with EPs always come from the way they implement stereo effects.    

 

Mono is cool.  Mono has more balls when it barks.

[cassdad]

2 hours ago, hrestov said:

Yes, but also if you use stereo a 30% of crowd will listen only L and 30% only R, because you mainly listen the nearer speaker.  A 40% listen both, but I think only 10/20% could listen both in a good stereo sweet spot. (Obviously it depends from the gig and the speakers position). 
So finally the question could be not which is the best way to get a mono good sound, but which keyboard have a good sound also if you listen only one side, because most people will listen only one side. 
For me nord pianos is not good if you only listen one side. They are too much wide. Yamaha is less wide. Roland and Korg and other I don’t know. 

 

I respectfully disagree.  Although I understand this whole thread is going nowhere (not sure this is only one answer), allow me to throw this concept into the mix:

 

My personal stage amp is a combo unit, with stereo left and right coming out of left and right speakers, but angled a few degrees, thus “spreading” the stereo left and right (as opposed to simply straight forward).  Even when I was using 2 separate PA amps (DXR-10’s), I would try to angle out the stereo spread (left and right).

 

My point is:  For the most part, once you create a really good sound, well…. you have a good sound that can be heard far greater than just left or right.  Add in acoustic reality, ie. each channel’s sound inevitably gets to bounce off walls and floors, thus just the stereo sound is actually heard in a much greater space than just the “sweet spot”.  The stereo piano samples get me to the “good sound source” part…. then that sound, somewhat akin to an acoustic piano soundboard, spreads throughout the venue.  YMMV.

[CEB]

Another thing I've wondered about is ... It isn't 1980 anymore.  When I was gigging up to last January, the sound reinforcement systems were  large flown line array systems.  Modern systems are designed to evenly distribute sound through a venue.   

 

 I'm just a honky tonk piano player and am not sure of what the exact impact of current sound  reinforcement technology is keyboard sound through FOH but, I can't help but think it improves the L to R situation as well as F to B.  But this is just conjecture.   

[Baldwin Funster]

2 hours ago, CEB said:

Another thing I've wondered about is ... It isn't 1980 anymore.  When I was gigging up to last January, the sound reinforcement systems were  large flown line array systems.  Modern systems are designed to evenly distribute sound through a venue.   

 

 I'm just a honky tonk piano player and am not sure of what the exact impact of current sound  reinforcement technology is keyboard sound through FOH but, I can't help but think it improves the L to R situation as well as F to B.  But this is just conjecture.   

I big room just doesn't need stereo and the stereo coming out of your KB probably won't sound good on a large scale. Do you want the left side of your stereo piano to only be heard by the audience on the left? 

[SMcD]

On 2/10/2024 at 2:56 PM, ShadowMan said:

Instead of converting your patches to mono, you could also take a look at the Radial  Stage Bug 2 DI box… which seems to do a dual 1/4” to XLR sum for the house. 

 

 

Again, I'm not sure how this would differ, in a physical sense, from summing within the keyboard. Unless the Stage Bug has some Nordesque algo that's fancier than straight summation of the channels?

[kpl1228]

I have this very question with my Crumar Mojo 61. Not convinced that (L) is defaulting to mono.

[Reezekeys]

20 hours ago, Baldwin Funster said:

I big room just doesn't need stereo and the stereo coming out of your KB probably won't sound good on a large scale. Do you want the left side of your stereo piano to only be heard by the audience on the left? 

 

Stereo, mono, big room, small room, whatever .... to me it only matters that you're not starting out with phase-cancelled boxy summed L&R. Pick a side, or just go stereo from keyboards to house and accept that some on the left won't hear everything coming out the right side and vice-versa. Actually I don't think that's true, given how sound bounces off walls and other reflective surfaces. Nobody can account for all the variation in room acoustics you're gonna see from gig to gig, so why even try? Also, what kind of stereo patch on a keyboard is going to have distinctive elements only on the right or left side? None, I say (ok maybe a stereo tremolo on my Rhodes patch - which is why I reduce the width when I use that). That's why I'll always run stereo. Those on the extreme right or left side of a room aren't gonna miss much, and as I've said ad-nauseum, they won't be getting either 1) phase-cancelled boxy sound or 2) only right or left side (if you choose that option) - which I think is inferior to stereo reproduction even if the audiences on the extremes of each side aren't in the sweet spot - stereo still sounds better than the other options, imo.

 

I realize I'm talking about choosing stereo over mono when going into a stereo house PA. If the house is mono that's a different story - in that case you just need to make the best of a bad situation. This is our cross to bear - guitars, basses, vocals, drums, etc. are single point sources and don't care about a PA being stereo or mono. Many of our sounds start off as stereo, and we listen to them in all their glory at home over headphones or studio monitors, then get to a gig and listen to them turn to crap on a mono PA. You do what you can to the best of your abilities to lessen the crap factor, play the gig and go home. I will say that I might take the time to work up mono-compatible patches if a significant percentage of my gigs were in venues with mono PAs - but that's nowhere near the case. Two clubs in the last 10 years of touring has been my experience.