Real Life Shlep Weight = Keys + Case + Stand

[cassdad]

Just thinking out loud, but reading about the weight of the new Korg GrandStage X triggered this:  Obviously - the real weight of a keyboard is the keyboard itself + the transport case one is using + the stand to place it on (+ maybe the bench if one plays seated).

 

I’m not sure there really is any easy solution, but I wish there was some easy way to, when analyzing a keyboard choice, all these variables could be easily considered / summed.  In actuality, I know I consider all that (just adding up all the weights).

 

My point is:  Some designs really favor a reduced shlep, but don’t seem to readily get credit for it.  For example, this new Korg being discussed has “legs” on it = a design I always loved because it meant I didn’t have to carry a separate stand (although yes, one has to carry the legs, and then assemble them).  But my K & M 18820 stand alone weighs some 21 pounds!  My Yammy MOXF8 weighs some 31 pounds.  And the plastic SKB roller case I use for the keys weighs some 32 pounds.  So, the “real life” shlep weight for my 31 pound portable keyboard = 84 pounds!

 

I agree with many that a 50+ pound keyboard is a non-starter, but if that weight included the legs, and/or eliminated having to shlep a 21 pound stand, perhaps the real life total shlep weight is in practicality more reasonable.

 

I’d also add that, for a portable keyboard, I’ve always like the “suitcase” design whereby the keys themselves comprise the “bottom” half of the case, and a separate (removable) “top” just clips on, thus eliminating the need for a separate case.  Add in that if its “legs” were stored in the top / cover, the total real life weight might be less than all separates.  However, I also understand that one can only lift so much weight at one time, thus there might be a transport advantage to all separate components.

 

And then there are other intangibles to consider, such as how does the shape impact ease of mobility, or handle locations, etc.

 

Just thinking out loud as I get ready to shlep it all (add in the amps!) to the next gig!

[Mighty Motif Max]

I don't count the weight of keyboard stands into the equation, since I would generally use the same one or two stand variants for any keyboard rig (unless I went beyond 3 keyboards live). For me it's just the combination of the keyboard and its case that I care about. I.e. when I was gigging my 63.5lb Motif XF8, the 30-ish pounds for the Z-stand I used was pretty negligible once I added the hardshell Yamaha case that brought the keys + case to over 100 lbs.

[Stokely]

I prefer a heavy stand and at least a somewhat weighty keyboard--20 pounds or so.  I did one windy outdoor gig last year with my Modx7 on an X stand where I had to 1) weight down the feet of the stand as the wind was tipping the whole ensemble and 2) wrap something around the Modx7 to make sure it wouldn't get the wind under one end and tip off.

My current Omega Pro stand isn't perfect but it folds up pretty nicely especially in single tier mode.  Certainly not ideal for loading on a cart though.

Form factor/shape is more important to me than weight.  A lot more important.  My Moxf8 at 30-ish pounds was much more awkward to move around than my Forte7 at 41 pounds.  The chassis on the Forte was easier to grab, and it was more compact by a lot (fits into a 61-key case).  That compactness matters when taking it to the car, loading in and out of the car, and on tight stages it's nice.  It means a lighter case too.

I have a cart which can handle weight; but if something has an oddball shape or is really big, the cart is going to be difficult to maneuver, especially if you have to deal with elevators.

I was highly impressed with the Montage M8x I played, but at 62 pounds and a ginormous chassis which needs a big case, that will mean a lot of banged-up doors and torn-up car interiors.   As I said in a Montage thread, if I owned a van my thinking might be different.

[CEB]

I only count things I would be having to lift in a single carry.  I would never carry my stand and stage piano at the same time.  But I will be lifting the piano while in the case.  
 

Cases are definitely a major thing.   When I was a younger working player I had road cases that were way heavier than their boards. I was younger and had to have them.  No way in hell I handle that now.  The Anvil road cases for the XK3c  rig were nuts.  

[16251]

The part of shlep weight I don't see discussed is getting gear into and out of your house/apartment.  So instead of two moves, it's really four moves. Sure, some people might have garages, but I was never that lucky.

[AnotherScott]

I won't use a stand that tops about 10 lbs. And an advantage to lightweight boards is that you can protect them decently with only a lightweight carry bag.

 

And as I've said before, wheels only help so much. There's still lifting the gear in and out of the car, on and off the stand, and in my case, often having to carry it a flight of stairs just to get it in and out of my house... all that before the variable of possible steps or otherwise difficult terrain at the venue.

 

I do have a cart I bring, and it's great for some gigs, but for others, I don't bother using it.

[PianoMan51]

Of course it’s the total schlep. Which is why the K&M 18880 at 3.2kg is popular here. Expensive, yes…

[cassdad]

19 hours ago, Stokely said:

I prefer a heavy stand and at least a somewhat weighty keyboard--20 pounds or so.  I did one windy outdoor gig last year with my Modx7 on an X stand where I had to 1) weight down the feet of the stand as the wind was tipping the whole ensemble and 2) wrap something around the Modx7 to make sure it wouldn't get the wind under one end and tip off.

My current Omega Pro stand isn't perfect but it folds up pretty nicely especially in single tier mode.  Certainly not ideal for loading on a cart though.

Form factor/shape is more important to me than weight.  A lot more important.  My Moxf8 at 30-ish pounds was much more awkward to move around than my Forte7 at 41 pounds.  The chassis on the Forte was easier to grab, and it was more compact by a lot (fits into a 61-key case).  That compactness matters when taking it to the car, loading in and out of the car, and on tight stages it's nice.  It means a lighter case too.

I have a cart which can handle weight; but if something has an oddball shape or is really big, the cart is going to be difficult to maneuver, especially if you have to deal with elevators.

I was highly impressed with the Montage M8x I played, but at 62 pounds and a ginormous chassis which needs a big case, that will mean a lot of banged-up doors and torn-up car interiors.   As I said in a Montage thread, if I owned a van my thinking might be different.

 

Great points, thank you.  Just FYI - I do have a van!  The seats all fold down into the floor, access is low to the ground, and with wide side and rear doors, it’s perfect for transporting music gear (and for soccer Moms)!

 

[cassdad]

17 hours ago, PianoMan51 said:

Of course it’s the total schlep. Which is why the K&M 18880 at 3.2kg is popular here. Expensive, yes…

Is it rock stable?  (Have you ever used the 18820 for comparison?)

[Stokely]

1 hour ago, cassdad said:

 

Great points, thank you.  Just FYI - I do have a van!  The seats all fold down into the floor, access is low to the ground, and with wide side and rear doors, it’s perfect for transporting music gear (and for soccer Moms)!

 

We had a Honda Odyssey for many years.  Great vehicle though not as good for gear as a "kidnapper van" (as I call my buddy's white no-windows van that he uses for his PA and gear  ).   One big downside for me--the back hatch was perfect forehead-bashing height for my head, I'm 6'3".   Any vehicle either needs side open doors or must now pass the "moron forehead test".   I used to get a kick out of fellow soccer families shoehorning kids and equipment into SUVs because "minivans aren't cool"...pssst, toting a bunch of 9 year olds in cleats has already disqualified you from "cool"....:D    We don't want another vehicle payment right now but I'd like to get a van again.

As others have pointed out, in addition to weight, size and chassis shape there are considerations for stairs and what I'd call "loading environments".   Based on my non-musician experiences in NYC, wow that would make for some tough load-ins just with the parking, and then with the weird tight entryways.   I have done a Wile E Coyote hanging in midair when I stepped on ice in Wisconsin, I can only imagine gigging in winter up north has to be a challenge.   Here in FL the biggest hassle gigs tends to be resorts, they almost always involve a long haul that needs a cart--winding through the place with patrons getting in the way,  and sometimes over grass or even sand which SUCKS.   Thankfully we don't do too many resort type gigs, though they tend to have good pay.   I'd say 90% of my gigs I can park within 50 ft of the stage  and don't even bother with a cart.   This is flat FL and stairs aren't often a thing.

[CEB]

1 hour ago, cassdad said:

Is it rock stable?  (Have you ever used the 18820 for comparison?)

 

Is it stable ... yes for the most part.  I use the 18880.  I like it if I need to go three tiers.  If you set it up the first time it will scare the hell out of you when it is empty.  There will be sideways play.  You put weight on it it will feel more stable.   More weight less wiggle.    I have rode a lot of weight on mine with no issues.  I also like the 18800 as a single tier stand for my stage organ when I set up in an L.  (SKx Hammond).  It is "stable"  it is not like the keys are moving targets when you play but it may worry you a little when you first get it.

 

The biggest pain in my opinion with the tiers are the spring pins that stop the board from sliding forward for two reasons:

1)  They will come loose.  It's no big deal you may not even need them.  I think some guys even run their tiers backwards.  In the picture below I put a yellow circle around a loose spring pin.  

2) Depending on action height and your playing plane you could scratch your wrist on the spring pins, especially if you lose the plastic cover cap.  K&M are great about replacing hardware parts you need.  I buy my K&M stuff from Thomann in Europe.  It is faster than needing anything from the US distributor.  The US distributor is Connelly Music and it takes them forever to get stuff to the dealers.  I don't think it is Connelly's fault.  They don't get stuff as fast as Thomann and then they need to ship it to the US dealers.  Connelly will not sell directly to end users, but they are helpful when trying to find out who in the US has items in stock.  They provide great service.  

 

I have had no problems with the 18880 plus stackers setup.  When I got it I was doing 90-110 dates a year.  I usually rode either a S90XS or Kronos 2-88 on bottom, XK3c in the middle and another synth on top.  FA-06 or GAIA- or Prophet-08 etc ....  Don't let this post put you off too much.  I like to post the negatives even when I like the gear.  That is what I want to hear when I ask for opinions.   Online marketing materials will give you all the positives.  I would definitely buy it again.

 

 

 

[PianoMan51]

The 18880 is very lightweight and seems flimsy when setup by itself, even with the knobs snugged down.

 

Once the keyboard is placed on top, from the players position kick each of the two legs outward an inch. This will create enough tension to tighten up the rig while the weight of the keyboard holds that tension in place.

 

I don’t do gymnastics on my keys, but I’ve had this stand for more than 10 years and used it for over 500 gigs. Let’s call my playing two-fisted piano. A fresh spray of flat black paint every five years…

 

Admittedly not very sexy. But Velcro an ultra light seat to it and I can carry both in one hand easily, while carrying the keyboard under my other arm. 
 

And I sing, so a mic stand is attached to the 18880 with a pair of hose clamps. Tres chic! Lol.

[stoken6]

17 hours ago, PianoMan51 said:

And I sing, so a mic stand is attached to the 18880 with a pair of hose clamps.

Pics? Enquiring minds want to know...

 

Cheers, Mike.

[Stokely]

mic boom adapter is a requirement for any stand I use.  I have one on the two stands I tend to use (both K&M) and an onstage adapter that works on most open-tube stands, but just in case yeah I'd be interested to see what you did   

If I have to bring something that doesn't fit in my main case (like a mic stand), it's only a matter of time before it either gets left behind or left at a gig.

[cassdad]

11 hours ago, Stokely said:

mic boom adapter is a requirement for any stand I use.  I have one on the two stands I tend to use (both K&M) and an onstage adapter that works on most open-tube stands, but just in case yeah I'd be interested to see what you did   

If I have to bring something that doesn't fit in my main case (like a mic stand), it's only a matter of time before it either gets left behind or left at a gig.

 

I also have wanted to eliminate having to carry an extra mic stand.  However, when I connected the mic to my K&M stand (using their accessories), every “hit” on my keyboard came through my mic - it was terrible and unacceptable.  I could not isolate the mic to an acceptable level no matter how I tried.

[CEB]

You can tell from the picture.  I gave up on mic stands a longtime ago.  I love headsets.  

[Stokely]

9 hours ago, cassdad said:

 

I also have wanted to eliminate having to carry an extra mic stand.  However, when I connected the mic to my K&M stand (using their accessories), every “hit” on my keyboard came through my mic - it was terrible and unacceptable.  I could not isolate the mic to an acceptable level no matter how I tried.

I've never had that happen for whatever reason.  I typically haven't used a big heavy keyboard, that might be why.

I've had "droopage" issues but that's common to mic stands in general.   

For anyone using mic stand attachments with threads, super handy tip--get the quick connect adapters.  No more winding and unwinding the damn booms.  Just press the button and *shoop* the boom goes on or off.

[eric]

I love to create efficiency in the movement of gear and have been using a cart for around 20 years in various configurations, multi keyboards and amps, more slimmed down rigs, etc. What I like to do is make it possible for ALL of my gear to load in with a single trip...all on a cart. This can be complicated if the venue has steps that don't allow for a cart, though I've found that 90% of the gigs I play are cart-friendly. I keep all my gear loaded on the cart in my garage gear closet. When it's time for the gig, I roll it out and around back of my Subaru to load it up...then repeat at the gig. This has worked pretty well for me over the years.

 

Here's my current live rig sitting in my gear closet.

 

[Old No7]

1 hour ago, CEB said:

You can tell from the picture.  I gave up on mic stands a longtime ago.  I love headsets.  

 

Interesting -- Can you tell us which brand/model has worked the best for you?

 

Thanks!

 

Old No7

[CEB]

27 minutes ago, Old No7 said:

 

Interesting -- Can you tell us which brand/model has worked the best for you?

 

Thanks!

 

Old No7

It depends.  If the whole band is on IEMs and everything running direct with modest stage levels nothing beats my Countryman.  It’s a condenser and sounds great but is literally unusable with wedges.  
 

I have a Shure WH20.  It’s dynamic, basically a SM58 element mounted on a mini gooseneck so you can adjust mic position.  There may be better but this is the one I got first and it works. 
 

In both cases I run the mic wireless. It passes through a Radial ABo footswitch.  The Radial acts as either 1) a kill switch or 2) if I’m on a vocoder combi it routes the mic to either the FOH or the Kronos.   You can always shut the mic off at the transmitter pack but if I need a cough switch and I’m playing keys I need a footswitch.  
 

In the pic I’m using the Shure. 

[Stokely]

I can definitely see some advantages for a headset with that other gear described--I'd want to shut the mic off at times and adjust for harmony vs lead distance (both addressed above).

It would make it much easier to play while singing, and also if wireless would help with a potential issue I'll have if I do some guitar with vocals on some songs...right now I'd need a 2nd microphone.

[AUSSIEKEYS]

On 1/22/2024 at 4:26 AM, cassdad said:

I do have a van!  it’s perfect for transporting music gear (and for soccer Moms)!

 

 

You have a collection of soccer mums?

[stoken6]

1 hour ago, AUSSIEKEYS said:

You have a collection of soccer mums?

"Well, it's only a little hobby. I've got three at the moment, so they go in the van without any difficulty. I'm on the looking for a 1992-era, preferably defense or goalkeeper, if anyone is looking to trade..."

 

Cheers, Mike.

[ewall08530]

Not one item over 36 lbs. What you can’t see we’ll is the Bose Pro 8 sub on the left side of the cart. It takes a few minutes to stack the cart and bungee but it’s worth it for those gigs where I need it all.  Quite often I can pair it down to carrying what I need in 2 trips.  It helps that most of my gigs are either restaurants with ramps to comply with the Americans With Disabilities Act or music venues that have House PA’s and well thought out load in/out design.  
  I’m 73, slight build and reasonably good health but with some arthritis in my hands and some back issues in the past I’ve been devoted to lighter gear for the last 20 years and feel better for it. 

[Stokely]

The bottom of the rock n' roller style carts can be a problem depending on your stuff.  You can of course add a bottom, what I do though is to take the furniture blanket I always have in the car and fold it up and make a bottom.   

With only 3 things (stand, keyboard, gear toolbox-on-wheels) I rarely need my cart these days.  The Nord Stage 3 compact gigbag can be a backpack so I can get all 3 in one trip if I want.  I really like that toolbox--it's a Husky 26" model from Home Depot.  Waterproof, stackable if need be, black so it can sit on stage as a table if I need one, big enough to hold all my cables, mic boom, pedalboard and more.   For quickie gigs where i need less cabling and monitors are provided I sometimes use a big backpack for gear...doesn't work well on a cart but obviously easy to carry!

If I can't use in-ears then I add a DXR10 powered speaker to the load but that's not that big or heavy.   I also optionally bring a rug and a fan, but it depends on the stage (if carpeted I don't bother) and the weather.   Then I also have my "outdoor bag" with grill cover, towel and water bottle.   So my "one trip walk in" option is situational.   I try to find out before hand whether I need my cart, but the way it works is:  If I bring my cart, I won't need it.  If I don't, I will  

[BluMunk]

23 hours ago, eric said:

I roll it out and around back of my Subaru to load it up

Do you have a plywood ramp or something to roll it into the car? I don't imagine you lift that fully-loaded cart?

[Stokely]

That's what I hate about carts...they themselves are awkward and heavy and you have to take the time to load them up, then unload them.

Our drummer keeps his big ol hardware case on his cart and just levers the whole thing up into his suv.   He's hurt his back doing it before.   As an aside, if I played drums I'd definitely get an electronic kit for live use....soooooo much easier to carry, set up and instantly be ready to mix.  Quiet on stage too.  Our bandleader who owns the PA has considered getting a "band drum set" that is electronic; we have our main drummer but also some subs, and whoever plays would just use it.   We have so many lower-volume gigs that this would be quite helpful.

[cassdad]

My issue with headset mics is that much of my singing style involves moving closer or farther from the mic as I sing = hard to do when the mic is a fixed distance from one’s mouth, I think.

[AnotherScott]

5 hours ago, Stokely said:

That's what I hate about carts...they themselves are awkward and heavy and you have to take the time to load them up, then unload them.

 

This Timber Ridge model on Amazon (and presumably elsewhere) is light, and since it has sides (unlike the ones that require you to use bungee cords to keep everything from falling off), load time is pretty quick.

 

Illustrated and discussed in more detail at https://forums.musicplayer.com/topic/185061-rudimentary-question-cart-and-loading/?do=findComment&comment=2938931 

 

and then

 

https://forums.musicplayer.com/topic/185858-busking-proof-of-concept-any-ideas-for-carting-gear-around/?do=findComment&comment=2953541

 

 

[Stokely]

I remember you were going to be a pioneer for that cart    I have a smaller and simpler version I got for soccer tournaments primarily, also works at the beach!

How's that cart working for you?