"Six on the Fifth" Barry Harris ... what's the point?

[BluMunk]

This morning I watched this video explaining the concept of "6 on the 5th".

The core of the idea seems to be that, for a given chord, instead of playing whatever flavor of 7 chord is called for, instead:

1. If it's a I chord, play it as a 6 chord instead, as it sounds more resolved.

2. If the 7 chord is not a I, instead play a 6th chord built off of various other scale degrees:
       m7 chord?  Play a 6 chord built on the 3rd of the chord (so, Cm7? Eb6 instead)

       7 chord? Play a 6 chord built on the 5th of the chord (so, C7? Gm6 instead)

After watching the video I did a little bit of searching to try to find some deeper explanations to help me understand... what's the point?

In the case of substituting for the m7, I'm not actually changing any notes- it seems like just doing some mental gymnastics to arrive at the exact same music.
In the case of substituting for the 7, there's slightly more color added, but what's the value in thinking, for example "the written chord is a C7, so I should play a Gm6" instead of just "I'll add a 9th to my C7"?

Any thoughts/insight from actual jazz musicians appreciated! (I'm very much a dilettante in the world of jazz, but usually follow explanations of harmonic approaches fairly well... this one feels a bit like complication for complication's sake to me).
 

[Delaware Dave]

43 minutes ago, BluMunk said:

In the case of substituting for so Cm7? Eb6 instead

 

it's because the the first inversion of the Cm7 is an Eb6.  Take the C in the Cm7 and move that single note up one octave, now you have Eb, G, Bb, C which is the same as an Eb6.  every minor 7th, moving the root note up one octave (i.e. playing the 1st inversion of that chord) gives you the 6th of the minor 3rd in that chord.  Gm7's first inversion is a Bb6.

[BluMunk]

I get that... my question is: what is the value of thinking about it as an Eb6 as opposed to an inversion of a Cm7? And, from a harmonic analysis standpoint, shouldn't the inversion be irrelevant? Like, in the video I lined, the guy explaining seemed to be saying "see, if I take the C from the root and put it on top, now I'm playing an Eb chord". As I understand things, the name of the chord (is this a C- or an Eb) is all about harmonic context, and what the perceived root of the chord is, regardless of whether or not that root is played below other chord tones.

 

[ProfD]

1 hour ago, BluMunk said:

After watching the video I did a little bit of searching to try to find some deeper explanations to help me understand... what's the point?

... this one feels a bit like complication for complication's sake to me).

Sometimes, there seems to be quite a bit of that when it comes to teaching music versus playing it.😁

 

But, I respect the hustle especially when musicians have to find multiple streams of income in order to pay the bills.😎

[16251]

I love exploring Barry's concepts. My motto on a lot of them is to take time at practice restricting my thought to playing through tunes and using this 6 on 5 for say 10 minutes (even if I don't understand why,) and eventually my brain will hot wire concept and then hopefully, it finds its way when I solo, or it gets discarded.  I just enjoy learning new avenues of thought, hopefully some of them will help while I'm still breathing.

[Docbop]

Part of trying to get into Barry's concepts is knowing the basics of his scales.   David Baker who first called them Bebop scales, but Barry hated that name and he calls them Major 6 Diminished,  Minor 6 Diminished and so on.  The basic scale i.e. Maj6Dim  is the four notes of the Ma6 chords combined with its Diminished chord.   So in C   C E G A and D F Ab B   so something like a CMa7 Barry would say your playing the CMaj but borrowing the B from the diminished scale.   That's quick and dirty explanation for a big topic to understand before moving forward.  

 

Also and it can be confusing watching Barry videos he talks about the scale and harmony use and linear as separate subject, but all those videos of him you don't always know which way he's talking about the Barry concepts.    Then if around the Barry world for awhile you see that most of the things he's talks about and is about looking at tiny little movements within a song not the whole song.    As some call it  "Isolate and explore".    

 

I would say the best two people's Youtubes to watch who spend a lot of time in the Barry workshop are Issac Raz and Chris Parks.   Chis Parks YouTube channel is called "Things I learned from Barry Harris".  Chris has many videos and still making them.    Issac Raz start making videos about Barry during the pandemic, but hasn't made much since then.   So I would recommend checking their videos out.   

[Reezekeys]

I've never made it more than 5 minutes into any video dealing with Barry's concepts. I did watch some of that "sixths on the fifth" video - and tuned out pretty quickly, sorry. Lets see... on a C7 I should play a a Gmin6? You mean the notes G, Bb, D, and E? Maybe I'm special because I somehow stumbled on this same voicing for a C7 chord, without knowing anything about any "concept." I call it a C13 though - doesn't everybody else? Personally, I like the sound with the E on the bottom and I also leave out the fifth - but that's my own take.

 

Of course, change the root note to a G and you have a Gmin6, so sure, Barry's concept "works", it just seems like overthinking things to an unnecessary degree. I have to assume there's more to his concept(s) and of course I would not dismiss anyone's opinion of his teachings if they believed it helped them. I guess I'm just an old dog who learned more traditional jazz theory, then followed Bird's advice in his famous quote - "forget all that bullshit and just play." (I still have trouble with the "just play" part! 🙂 )

 

I consider Barry Harris a giant of bebop piano. When I first started getting into jazz, one of the first albums I bought was this one which featured him, and I wore it out. It's all on youtube (and includes a rhythm changes tune at over 350 bpm!).

 

[Dave Number Four]

I think the point is just that:

 

-you learn a bunch of cool harmonic movements (6ths alternating with diminished 7ths, drop 2, and more advanced things you can do with those)

 

-those movements are built around a 6th voicing like GBDE if you're playing in G major.

 

-now you're playing a C maj 7 chord and want to emphasize the maj 7 (B) and 9 (D). Instead of learning new material around a 7th or 9th voicing, you can just play the stuff you learned for the G6 chord over your C root and it sounds great. Hence you're playing your 6th chord bag on the 5th note (G) of the scale (C maj).

 

And there's an equivalent relationship between minor 6th movements and dominant 7th chords.

 

It's not really a theory thing, just a simplification trick.

[MathOfInsects]

I like his comment (elsewhere) that Ma7's are really asking to resolve not up to roots but down to Ma6's. It's fun to think of a "6" as somehow the stable thing that something else resolves to, instead of the "open" thing that wants to resolve. I think that mindset really just involves deciding to hear the Ma7 as a mi9, and I'm always thinking of upper structures as what "else" they are, so I appreciate this approach.

My son says he can't hear a 9 chord as NOT the vmi(6). That upper structure ONLY functions as either the mi or something weakly subbing for it, for him. 

I appreciate Harris's conception of harmony, but at times it does strike me as just a personal mnemonic or preference. Obviously I come nowhere close to his genius either as a player or as a thinker, so take it with all the salt.

[jazzpiano88]

44 minutes ago, MathOfInsects said:

I like his comment (elsewhere) that Ma7's are really asking to resolve not up to roots but down to Ma6's

I like that too.   The 6th often doesn’t get the respect.   I remember C6 fondly it was my first blues chord when I was 8.   New Orleans Blues or something like that:

RH:  E G A C   LH:  C G. 
 

 

[CHarrell]

1 hour ago, Reezekeys said:

I've never made it more than 5 minutes into any video dealing with Barry's concepts.

 

I thought I was the only one. 😭 I feel like there was a universal subconscious switch that turned on one day and suddenly every jazz educator, particularly on YouTube, decided that Barry Harris was it. But as the Wayne Shorter tune says, there are many "Ports of Entry" into understanding, so if these are the conduit for people, then great.

 

One technique/exercise that I've enjoyed lately is taking a simple chord voicing, and experimenting with substituting the notes--particularly the inner ones--while keeping their function as their chord degrees. So for example, take the C E G B in a Cmaj7, and substitute the E and G for their neighbors, Eb and Ab, but still treating them as the 3 and 5 of the chord. It creates an immediate tension in the inner voices that you can resolve and play around with in so many ways: keeping the Eb and moving the Ab down to the G, then down to the F#, or even just simply bringing them back down to their "normal" notes. 

[ProfD]

8 minutes ago, CHarrell said:

I feel like there was a universal subconscious switch that turned on one day and suddenly every jazz educator, particularly on YouTube, decided that Barry Harris was it.

Reminds me of having a bunch of folks sitting around in a room smoking sticky green.  Then, one of them starts to philosophize. 

 

All of sudden, the higher folks get, they start nodding in agreement and believing in the *concept*. 

 

Before you know it, folks are running around drinking Cheez Wiz from red cups and proclaiming the Enlightened One has arrived. 🤣😎

[CyberGene]

WTF is this sh1t 🤦🏻‍♂️

[CHarrell]

7 minutes ago, ProfD said:

Reminds me of having a bunch of folks sitting around in a room smoking sticky green.  Then, one of them starts to philosophize. 

 

All of sudden, the higher folks get, they start nodding in agreement and believing in the *concept*. 

 

Before you know it, folks are running around drinking Cheez Wiz from red cups and proclaiming the Enlightened One has arrived. 🤣😎

 

This is entirely hypothetical, I assume.

[jazzpiano88]

15 minutes ago, CHarrell said:

I thought I was the only one. 😭 I feel like there was a universal subconscious switch that turned on one day and suddenly every jazz educator, particularly on YouTube, decided that Barry Harris was it

Has it become that way in academia?    I’ve watched his videos lamenting how Jazz education is all wrong.  Have his concepts become the new norm is jazz education as you suggest?   YouTube, to me isn’t a good metric as you have the copycat syndrome for clicks.  

[CyberGene]

I came up with another approach. If you have an m7 chord, you can actually play an m7 chord that is a semitone higher but transpose each of its notes a semitone lower.

[CHarrell]

Just now, CyberGene said:

I came up with another approach. If you have an m7 chord, you can actually play an m7 chord that is a semitone higher but transpose each of its tones a semitone lower. 

 

The diminished-augmented minor 7 chord has opened up my playing like you wouldn't believe.

[SMcD]

Sometimes I like to sub a C-7 for a Bmaj7#5(#1).

[CHarrell]

1 minute ago, jazzpiano88 said:

Has it become that way in academia?    I’ve watched his videos lamenting how Jazz education is all wrong.  Have his concepts become the new norm is jazz education as you suggest?   YouTube, to me isn’t a good metric as you have the copycat syndrome for clicks.  

 

I couldn't tell you that with any degree of informed honesty. I've seen some--ahem, videos of students in their classes with instructors that have mentioned Barry Harris, but it'd be ignorant for me to assume that's what you'd find in schools all over. 

 

That said, for most lay people, or even musicians looking to transfer/gain skill sets without wanting to pay the $$$$$$$$$ for more official schooling, I would argue YT is the number one platform where people learn. For better and worse.

[CyberGene]

I’ve found that when I’m harmonizing songs where I have the tonic chord and the tonic note in the melody, then 6 chords work better than maj7 but that’s the only exception where I’d prefer them. And I like a voicing that’s more quartal, e.g. top to bottom:

 

C E A D G C

[MathOfInsects]

I just told this privately, but I'll share it publicly. I might have told this story before, but when I first started playing my original music in NY, there were a bunch of jazz-school guys in my neighborhood (Bklyn) who were hungry for gigs, and I always ended up with bands made up of those guys. One day we were rehearsing in my pad and I could tell I'd dropped the guys off my chart, so I played an off-the-rack C triad in root position--C, C-E-G--to show where we were. The bass player leaned over to look at my hands and said, "Ooh, that's a nice voicing. What is that?"

[Reezekeys]

My impression is that Barry, like Lennie Tristano, has become sort of a cult figure in jazz education, famous for his weekly clinics expounding his concepts with a roomful of students. Curiously (to me), I don't think he had an official teaching position at any academic institution - where I assume his status and life experience would have easily gotten him a position. Or am I wrong?

[CHarrell]

3 minutes ago, Reezekeys said:

My impression is that Barry, like Lennie Tristano, has become sort of a cult figure in jazz education, famous for his weekly clinics expounding his concepts with a roomful of students. Curiously (to me), I don't think he had an official teaching position at any academic institution - where I assume his status and life experience would have easily gotten him a position. Or am I wrong?

 

This seems like a really good article on him, written after his passing a few years ago.

 

https://www.thenation.com/article/culture/barry-harris-obit/

[jazzpiano88]

6 minutes ago, CyberGene said:

I’ve found that when I’m harmonizing songs where I have the tonic chord and the tonic note in the melody, then 6 chords work better than maj7 but that’s the only exception where I’d prefer them. And I like a voicing that’s more quartal, e.g. top to bottom:

 

C E A D G C

 

I hear a lot of 6th chords in here when he gets going.  This would be a good one to transcribe.   Master class in chordal voice leading:

 

 

[GovernorSilver]

2 hours ago, Docbop said:

Chis Parks YouTube channel is called "Things I learned from Barry Harris".  

 

Parks has good stuff.   Open Studio thought highly enough of him to bring him onboard, and now he has a couple of courses there.

 

I've noticed Adam Maness incorporates Barry Harris stuff into some of his courses - eg. the Bebop Chords for Beginners course.  He does it without making the course look like it's all about Barry Harris.

 

While Chris Parks I'm sure is benefiting financially from his relatively new relationship with Open Studio, he did put up all that content on his Youtube channel for free, for several years in fact.

[ProfD]

17 minutes ago, Reezekeys said:

Curiously (to me), I don't think he had an official teaching position at any academic institution - where I assume his status and life experience would have easily gotten him a position. Or am I wrong?

Barry Harris had one *problem* as it relates to American academia.

 

Europeans seem to be a bit more forgiving in that regard especially when it comes to music.

 

Of course, now that Barry Harris is no longer with us, certain folks will monetize his concepts.😎

[Jazz+]

Page 1 is from my teaching syllabus

Page 2 not shown, gives examples for Cmi7 b5,  C7,  and C7 ALT (#9 b13)

 

 

 

[Reezekeys]

Since I'm totally ignorant of Barry's teachings, I'm curious - is his stuff geared specifically to playing bebop piano? Or could his concepts be applied by those looking to play more in the Chick/Herbie/McCoy vein? I say this because - and here comes another opinion 🙂 - I see very little utility in learning to play, or concentrating on playing, bebop. It's history, made 80 years ago now. Learn about it, listen to it, understand its significance and impact - yes, yes and yes. Try to go out there and do gigs or make any kind of living doing it - well, good luck. I say this as someone who did listen to a lot of bebop, play (and continue to play) standards the bebop guys played, and very much enjoy playing it occasionally - but I could never have it be the sole focus, or even the major focus of my playing. There's been a lot of development in jazz since the 1940s, and unless you're dedicating yourself to being a "preservasionist" (like Dick Hyman), I can't see anyone, especially younger folks, concentrating solely on developing bebop piano chops. It makes no sense to me.

[Jazz+]

Block chording is a jazz piano technique taught in the Mark Levine books and by Barry Harris, myself, and many others. It is standardized, is in widespread use throughout jazz piano, and is used by jazz band arrangers for the horn sections. Although it has been around for a long time, it is not out of date. The "melodic minor 6th diminished scale" in block chords has a very modern sound favored by Herbie Hancock and Chick Corea.

[Reezekeys]

I studied block chords with John Mehegan, and listened to a lot of Red Garland. If my jazz history is correct, it was Milt Buckner that pioneered this style.