UA Ravel piano software/ $49 Sweetwater etc./ Thoughts, experiences?

[mrk7421]

Someone brought this up on my recent Roland digital piano thread. I had never heard of UA Ravel piano software so I looked it up and it's out there on many sites for 49 dollars. At that price I guess it's worth a try but as I have stated many times I am a complete novice when it comes to installing software. I had a horrendous experience with VI labs Ravenscroft....it wasn't only me but it baffled two fairly skilled computer techs as to why they made installation so complicated. In the end I threw away a lot of time and money and got nothing but a lot of latency. So am curious who has tried the Ravel and what level of learning curve it requires.

[ElmerJFudd]

You can play it as part of the spark demo time. 
 

It’s just ok to me.  Many others to choose from that I find more detailed.  

[mrk7421]

What is spark demo time?...sorry....no clue what these things are

[mrk7421]

And so what would be more detailed and easy to install? Also.....can software compete with some of the current offerings from Yamaha Roland etc?. Software is somewhat of a mystery area to me though a lot on this forum seem to be adept at navigating it. I got as far as the demo with Pianoteq and that really did not sound good to me though granted.....don't really know how to interface USB midi to desktop or laptop.

[ElmerJFudd]

27 minutes ago, mrk7421 said:

What is spark demo time?...sorry....no clue what these things are

You can register to demo all their software.  Just download the one thing you want to try.  

[ElmerJFudd]

59 minutes ago, mrk7421 said:

And so what would be more detailed and easy to install? Also.....can software compete with some of the current offerings from Yamaha Roland etc?. Software is somewhat of a mystery area to me though a lot on this forum seem to be adept at navigating it. I got as far as the demo with Pianoteq and that really did not sound good to me though granted.....don't really know how to interface USB midi to desktop or laptop.

Right.  So generally speaking the PC and virtual instruments aren’t a great option for you regardless of a sale at $49 or full price at X.   
 

There are some software pianos that are offering beyond what many digital pianos are currently able to provide due to the economics of storage and processors.  
 

How did you demo Pianoteq without midi or usb on your pc? 

[mrk7421]

I was able to demo Pianoteq because I had some help from Michael at McIntosh Audio who is the local service tech for Yamaha Crumar Hammond Suzuki etc.etc.He had the necessary interface gear to go into a PC. I was using a Roland FP 10 as controller and the demo we got was not an improvement over the FP10 itself as far as I could tell. The FP10 is not bad if you use it with a good amp and phones or speakers. I have been trying to chase some kind of upgrade for it and am wondering if it is worth it. The biggest improvement I have seen is to use some good phones though you guys would laugh if I said what I came up with. Basically some cheap over the ear phones from 20 years ago

[ElmerJFudd]

2 hours ago, mrk7421 said:

I was able to demo Pianoteq because I had some help from Michael at McIntosh Audio who is the local service tech for Yamaha Crumar Hammond Suzuki etc.etc.He had the necessary interface gear to go into a PC. I was using a Roland FP 10 as controller and the demo we got was not an improvement over the FP10 itself as far as I could tell. The FP10 is not bad if you use it with a good amp and phones or speakers. I have been trying to chase some kind of upgrade for it and am wondering if it is worth it. The biggest improvement I have seen is to use some good phones though you guys would laugh if I said what I came up with. Basically some cheap over the ear phones from 20 years ago

They made some nice headphones 20 years ago, I’m sure they’re fine.  
 

Don’t worry about upgrades, especially if you’re on a budget. Time spent playing is always more valuable.  Modern software is going to require a modern computing device plus the cost of the software.   An FP90 is a $2k instrument without the stand and triple pedal.  

[drawback]

I downloaded free demos of Ravel and a couple of other UA VI plugins just to check them out, and wasn't too impressed with the experience. I thought, reading the promo, that the VIs were standalone, like Pianoteq, but the only way I could access them was within a host such as Mainstage. At least I couldn't find standalone applications (somebody correct me if I missed them somewhere) – there were only support files in my Library. Anyway, once I loaded them into Mainstage - and I didn't spend much time editing - I felt Ravel, as well as their Rhodes Suitcase and B3 Waterfall, were kind of anemic out of the gate compared to some of the other VIs I have such as Ravenscroft, Canterbury Rhodes, etc. and I lost interest in trying to make them sound as good.

 

So speaking to @mrk7421 – I think you'd be better off with hardware, like the FP10, than Ravel. In fact I'd suggest Pianoteq, with its standalone interface, might be as far as you want to go at least for now, until you have a better grasp on the world of virtual instruments. Better to go slowly with the easiest accessible product first.

 

Just my 2¢!

[mrk7421]

Yes.....FP10 is bare bones Roland Supernatural. As many know....no 1/4 out.....no standard midi out and the sample has 90 polyphony rather than 256 in the FP90x. The speakers suck also. You have to put it on hard key touch to get rid of the upper harmonics dominating and then bring them back a bit with EQ. Then you have something.  Playing music is the point! I do a lot of work voicing the harmonies of jazz tunes....real book type stuff because it is so accessable. Then I translate the right hand voicings to guitar. That is the reason I use these tools. It's not all about chasing gear.

[mrk7421]

I have access to some lightly used computers that are sold as surplus through the State of Oregon. Was hoping to use some of this for Keyboard sounds. Many people go the software route....which seems to make sense because in many cases the latest boards get expensive! I have heard the latest Yamaha super Montage or whatever it was at GC. Was excellent but....$4000?? No way.  I spoke to the VI lLabs Ravenscroft people at NAMM several years ago and they claimed they could offer a sample that would compete with any hardware at that time. But my Ravenscroft experience was a nightmare..... latency from hell. The other thing that I might chase in software might be a good Rhodes or good organ . If software isn't up to hardware then why waste my time?

[Jose EB5AGV]

10 minutes ago, mrk7421 said:

I have access to some lightly used computers that are sold as surplus through the State of Oregon. Was hoping to use some of this for Keyboard sounds. Many people go the software route....which seems to make sense because in many cases the latest boards get expensive! I have heard the latest Yamaha super Montage or whatever it was at GC. Was excellent but....$4000?? No way.  I spoke to the VI lLabs Ravenscroft people at NAMM several years ago and they claimed they could offer a sample that would compete with any hardware at that time. But my Ravenscroft experience was a nightmare..... latency from hell. The other thing that I might chase in software might be a good Rhodes or good organ . If software isn't up to hardware then why waste my time?

 

The computer power for most less than 10 years old desktop PCs should be more than enough (I have at home three desktop computers used for audio, and the newest one is from 2014). But there is a thing which should be added to it: a good external audio interface. Without that, it is common to have big trouble with latency, cracks and such.

 

I use mainly two: one included on my Yamaha MG10XU and an standalone Focusrite Scarlett 4i4 3rd generation. There are plenty of suitable ones. Using the internal sound devices on desktop PCs is usually calling for audio trouble, at least in my experience.

[ElmerJFudd]

1 hour ago, Jose EB5AGV said:

 

The computer power for most less than 10 years old desktop PCs should be more than enough (I have at home three desktop computers used for audio, and the newest one is from 2014). But there is a thing which should be added to it: a good external audio interface. Without that, it is common to have big trouble with latency, cracks and such.

 

I use mainly two: one included on my Yamaha MG10XU and a standalone Focusrite Scarlett 4i4 3rd generation. There are plenty of suitable ones. Using the internal sound devices on desktop PCs is usually calling for audio trouble, at least in my experience.

This really depends on the software and its requirements.  And the settings you make in the software and the OS (Windows).   The developer may say a 2.4ghz Intel dual core processor with 8gb of RAM is minimum - but an i7 is recommended. What buffer and latency do you hope to experience?  How high would you like to set the polyphony and do you intend to use the sustain pedal?  If the software uses disk streaming you’ll want an SSD for sure.  Honestly you’d want an SSD on any PC - especially older models if your time is valuable. 
 

But for sure, older machines may or may not have audio chip sets that can deliver low latency performance.  You can experiment with ASIO4ALL or grab a decent usb audio interface with its own ASIO drivers.  
 

side note - I notice 4th Gen Scarlett interfaces from Focusrite class compliant no driver install.  Anyone used one yet on Windows?  
 

 

[Jose EB5AGV]

1 hour ago, ElmerJFudd said:

This really depends on the software and its requirements.  And the settings you make in the software and the OS (Windows).   The developer may say a 2.4ghz Intel dual core processor with 8gb of RAM is minimum - but an i7 is recommended. What buffer and latency do you hope to experience?  How high would you like to set the polyphony and do you intend to use the sustain pedal?  If the software uses disk streaming you’ll want an SSD for sure.  Honestly you’d want an SSD on any PC - especially older models if your time is valuable. 
 

But for sure, older machines may or may not have audio chip sets that can deliver low latency performance.  You can experiment with ASIO4ALL or grab a decent usb audio interface with its own ASIO drivers.  
 

side note - I notice 4th Gen Scarlett interfaces from Focusrite class compliant no driver install.  Anyone used one yet on Windows?  
 

 

 

I was referring to the raw computer power. Yes, optimization and SSDs do wonders on any PC and the older it is, the more needed of both. But my point is that sometimes the audio interface is ignored and the internal sound system, on PCs (Mac ecosystem is lots better on that) usually lacks, and is one primary cause of audio problems.

[mrk7421]

Audio interface.....SSD.....I am just not enough of a computer geek to be aware of these. The computer I tried to use  with Ravenscroft has 8 gig RAM at least. I would have to check other specs. As I was saying...I had two competent people try to help me with software without much luck. I know little to nothing about the internal workings of computers. So pursuing software may not be for me 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Jose EB5AGV]

26 minutes ago, mrk7421 said:

Audio interface.....SSD.....I am just not enough of a computer geek to be aware of these. The computer I tried to use  with Ravenscroft has 8 gig RAM at least. I would have to check other specs. As I was saying...I had two competent people try to help me with software without much luck. I know little to nothing about the internal workings of computers. So pursuing software may not be for me 

 

Yes, maybe it is not the way to go in your case. PCs are very powerful tools but also need some degree of competence to successfully manage them. I was lucky, back in 1982, when I was 14, to get my first computer, a Commodore VIC20. That small machine changed my life forever. In just some months I was programming it and that was the beginning of a professional life around computers and electronics (at 16 I was already doing some paid programming 😃). So for me computers are like good, old friends. But I understand not everyone has such kind of relationship with them.

 

All in all, modern keyboards have computers in them. But the interface has been adapted to one function and most of the complexity is hidden to the user. On the other hand, using a computer as a musical instrument, even if software is also hiding a great part of the complexity, still needs some knowledge to be successful. And there are some details that knowing people not in the music area, may ignore.

 

So, go with the tools which better suits you and enjoy!

[CHarrell]

Does the FP10 have the USB Audio interface that the X line has? Bit of a pain to set up, but that's one less piece of kit you'd have to worry about...it also means you'd be able to play the computer sounds through those crummy onboard speakers!

[mrk7421]

These days....there are no clocks anymore in public places. It is expected that" MOST PEOPLE" are expected to have their phone/ mini computer at ALL TIMES. ........... So no... I am not a computer guy. I did not fall in love with any of these objects at a young age. I have a vague interest in what might be possible with some of this software....   but I tend to go to other qualified people to maybe help me with this but most report back that they were unsuccessful in getting results....generally because of lack of clear directions or some missing interface gadget or whatever.................................................................... I am completely non technical because lack of clear instructions generally. My phone comes with no owners manual and some of the keyboards I have tried over the years completely leave me in the dust...i.e. many Yamaha products I have tried such as Motif and CP5. So yeah....Roland FP10 is it for now.  Pretty simple....Also I have no idea what X line is....

[Reezekeys]

With all respect... you keep telling us you're "not a computer guy", "completely non-technical", etc.  So, my advice would be to give up on this quest. There certainly are digital pianos out there that sound excellent and won't break the bank. You had issues with the FP10, OK well that's Roland's bottom-of-the-line piano; there are better ones. Find a music store with a few other pianos, get a decent set of headphones, and spend some time playing a few of them (yes I know that's easier said than done these days, but the alternative is buying then returning units until you're happy, which has its own set of hassles).

 

I have a wonderful acoustic piano on my eight-year-old iPhone - but it took some doing. I've also been using a laptop-based music rig for the last 22 years, full-time for the last 16 years. Forums like this are a great way to learn and share knowledge about making these systems work but I've found there's a limit when trying to help someone who's (by their own admission) music-computer-illiterate. There are many "moving parts" in a computer-based music rig - the operating system, the software itself and how the samples are managed, midi routing, audio settings for best latency, etc. Even computer "experts" can get confused and frustrated if they're not familiar with how virtual instruments on computers work. A digital piano incorporates all these moving parts in one box; turn it on and you're good to go. That's what you should do, imo. BTW, regarding your complaint about the $4000 pricetag of the Montage - that's a completely different category of instrument from a digital piano; a full-featured "workstation" synth keyboard with thousands of sounds. Apples and oranges.

[ElmerJFudd]

Keep in mind a “hybrid” digital piano - one with an acoustic’s action and significantly better monitoring system in a piece of furniture similar to an acoustic piano - makes the $4k Montage with all its bells and whistles a reasonable price.  
 

There are many “turn on and play” digital pianos to choose from at every price point.  This would seem, for the OPs GAS, to be the most logical step if he has $ burning a hole in his pocket.  Computers and software instruments do not seem like an enjoyable path for him. 

[CHarrell]

3 hours ago, Reezekeys said:

I've also been using a laptop-based music rig for the last 22 years, full-time for the last 16 years.

 

Can I ask you something? I was too young to be on the scene during that time, but I get the sense that that was NOT a common approach back then. In fact, I suspect the idea had resistance due to a lot of factors that have been mitigated or addressed to varying degrees over the years. So during that time, what led you to taking that route?  

[Reezekeys]

53 minutes ago, CHarrell said:

 

So during that time, what led you to taking that route?  

 

I've always had a nerd side and was into sampling tech early on when I got an Ensoniq Mirage and its "advanced sampling filter." Since I'm mostly a jazz piano player I was intrigued by the possibility of a high-quality piano I could bring to my gigs. By the late 1990s the best I could do was the "Session" piano on my Roland XP50 workstation. Then I heard about this new software product, Gigasampler - the first app to implement disk streaming to play back multisamples (there were hard disk audio recording apps like Sound Tools but that's a different category). Unfortunately for me, this program was Windows-only and it was a few more years before disk streaming sample playback came to the Mac.

 

I had experimented with a laptop rig when I got my 500Mhz Titanium Powebook G4 in 2001, with a program called "Unity" by a long-gone company named Bitzhead. This app didn't stream from disk however - it loaded all samples into ram, and their piano wasn't much better than what would be in today's cheapest Sound Canvases or equivalents - probably worse.

 

When I got my second laptop in 2006 is when I got serious and started using the Plogue Bidule program with Native Instrument's "Akoustik Piano" plugin - and I've stayed with their Steinway piano ever since. To have a super-light controller and laptop to carry to gigs, with a decent stereo PPA system, playing unlooped stereo samples that included release, sustain pedal resonance and mechanical noise samples is what made me happy then and continues to make me happy today - except now I have those samples in an iPhone & iPad as well.

[Jonathan Hughes]

12 hours ago, mrk7421 said:

I have a vague interest in what might be possible with some of this software....   but I tend to go to other qualified people to maybe help me with this but most report back that they were unsuccessful in getting results....generally because of lack of clear directions or some missing interface gadget or whatever

 

You've also said "I had two competent people try to help me with software without much luck."

I'd like to suggest that these people aren't actually competent or qualified. We're almost a quarter of the way through the 21st century. None of this stuff is new technology. Like Reezekeys, I've been using computer-based instruments for over 20 years. (Whenever some mentions that something happened 20 years ago, it takes me a second to remember that that's the early 2000s and not the 1970s). These companies wouldn't be in business if no one was able to use their software. I don't have Ravenscroft, but the installers for all of these things are always straightforward. You either download the whole thing and then there's a few clicks to install it, or you do a few clicks to install it and then it downloads. You don't need to know "the inner workings of a computer" to install them. You're using a computer right now to post on this forum. You had to set up an account, and then use e-mail to verify your account. You probably do all sorts of other things on your computer every day. Maybe you're worried that you're going to "break" something and you need more confidence, but there are actual experts in this forum who can certainly help you out more than whoever you talked to.

You do need an audio interface, though. The fact that you don't is most likely the source of your latency. Audio interfaces are cheap, will probably give you better sound quality than your headphone jack (especially if you're hooking up speakers), and will almost certainly solve your latency issue. 

It could very well be that you'd be better off sticking with hardware, but if you want to upgrade from the FP10, you certainly don't need to spend anywhere close to $4000.

[AnotherScott]

On 1/9/2024 at 10:51 PM, Jonathan Hughes said:

I don't have Ravenscroft, but the installers for all of these things are always straightforward. You either download the whole thing and then there's a few clicks to install it, or you do a few clicks to install it and then it downloads. You don't need to know "the inner workings of a computer" to install them. You're using a computer right now to post on this forum. You had to set up an account, and then use e-mail to verify your account.

Setting up a VST can be a lot more complicated than setting up, say, a gmail account and a forum login. For Windows, you probably have to go to the manufacturer's site to download the VST (where you may have to choose from multiple versions, e.g. 32-bit vs 64-bit) and then properly extract and place the resulting files; then there will probably be some activation procedure which, itself, is non-standardized and may require going to some other site and downloading and setting up some other software... maybe its iLok, or Steinberg eLicenser, or UVI Workstation, or Native Access (Kontakt), or a UAD account, etc... and being non-standardized, this is something that can easily be a different process for your different VST installs. Then probably go somewhere else to get ASIO4ALL and figure out how to install and configure that. In some cases, you'll also need to download/install/configure some kind of hosting app (especially if you may want to be able to play more than one VST at a time). And then, after all that if latency is problematic, there are a whole series of things to do to try to address that. It's simpler on a Mac... no ASIO complication (likely no need to install any drivers at all), no "aggregate device" limitation, fewer things to impact latency, less need to keep track of what you're installing where... but it can still be somewhat complicated because you still probably need to deal with registration/activation and/or hosting environments, in addition to the VST(or AU) itself (unless maybe you just stick with Mainstage). I understand why this can be daunting for people not so comfortable with computers. (iPad/iPhone are simpler, for someone who just wants to dip their toes into software instruments; especially if you have one with a headphone jack.)

 

On 1/9/2024 at 10:51 PM, Jonathan Hughes said:

You do need an audio interface, though. The fact that you don't is most likely the source of your latency. Audio interfaces are cheap, will probably give you better sound quality than your headphone jack

Yes for (most?) Windows systems, typically not necessary on Mac (though you often still want audio interface on Mac for other reasons, e.g. bringing mic/line audio into the computer or looking for additional channels of I/O or the convenience of additional connectors and controls). Another variable here is the increasing number of keyboards which, themselves, include audio interfaces.

[Reezekeys]

Definitely no need for an audio interface on a Mac if you don't need to input anything and just want stereo output. The headphone out is fine.

 

As to installing, my experience is mostly with NI and there are definitely a few steps to go through – like first downloading and running Native Access, entering the serial #, then downloading & installing the actual instrument files; pretty straightforward actually. For some sample-based products, you may want to move the samples to an external drive (if the installer doesn't allow you to do it during the initial install). I found the instructions NI gives you pretty clear - but there's really no standardized or common practices that we can rely on all music software devs to follow. I've never used Ravenscroft on a Mac so have no idea what if any hoops there are to jump through to get that particular piano installed.

 

You also need to know how to set up the computer's audio system correctly for playing a VI. NI lets you adjust the buffer size pretty easily but you still need to know what "buffer size" means in the virtual instrument world, why it's an important setting, how it relates to your computer's processing power, and how to adjust it – as in where that setting is located! Sometimes it's not very obvious. I'll go out on a limb and guess that most of this info is readily available with a little searching - provided you know the terminology to search on!

[drawback]

56 minutes ago, Reezekeys said:

You also need to know how to set up the computer's audio system correctly for playing a VI. NI lets you adjust the buffer size pretty easily but you still need to know what "buffer size" means in the virtual instrument world, why it's an important setting, how it relates to your computer's processing power, and how to adjust it – as in where that setting is located! Sometimes it's not very obvious. I'll go out on a limb and guess that most of this info is readily available with a little searching - provided you know the terminology to search on!

 

I don't know where the OP and his helpers had problems with Ravenscroft, but even though it's been a long time since I did it I don't recall having any problems with installation, latency, or any other issues and this was on a 2010 Macbook Pro. UVI Workstation is one of the clearest hosts to run – its GUI, if not easily understood, has a good instruction manual – and Ravenscroft's interface is still one of the easiest out there.   

 

As I mentioned earlier, for an easy introduction into general MIDI instruments installed on a computer and controlled by a keyboard, something low-CPU and stand-alone is the free demo of Pianoteq. Start there, iron out what you don't understand about interacting with a computer for music, and move ahead or just move on.

[CHarrell]

1 hour ago, Reezekeys said:

Definitely no need for an audio interface on a Mac if you don't need to input anything and just want stereo output. The headphone out is fine.

 

As to installing, my experience is mostly with NI and there are definitely a few steps to go through – like first downloading and running Native Access, entering the serial #, then downloading & installing the actual instrument files; pretty straightforward actually. For some sample-based products, you may want to move the samples to an external drive (if the installer doesn't allow you to do it during the initial install). I found the instructions NI gives you pretty clear - but there's really no standardized or common practices that we can rely on all music software devs to follow. I've never used Ravenscroft on a Mac so have no idea what if any hoops there are to jump through to get that particular piano installed.

 

You also need to know how to set up the computer's audio system correctly for playing a VI. NI lets you adjust the buffer size pretty easily but you still need to know what "buffer size" means in the virtual instrument world, why it's an important setting, how it relates to your computer's processing power, and how to adjust it – as in where that setting is located! Sometimes it's not very obvious. I'll go out on a limb and guess that most of this info is readily available with a little searching - provided you know the terminology to search on!

 

I snagged a few UVI products on their holiday sale such as the VI Labs Modern U, and the iLok thing has a pretty clear step-by-step process, but I can see it be intimidating for someone with a low threshold for tech.

52 minutes ago, drawback said:

 

I don't know where the OP and his helpers had problems with Ravenscroft, but even though it's been a long time since I did it I don't recall having any problems with installation, latency, or any other issues and this was on a 2010 Macbook Pro. UVI Workstation is one of the clearest hosts to run – its GUI, if not easily understood, has a good instruction manual – and Ravenscroft's interface is still one of the easiest out there.   

 

As I mentioned earlier, for an easy introduction into general MIDI instruments installed on a computer and controlled by a keyboard, something low-CPU and stand-alone is the free demo of Pianoteq. Start there, iron out what you don't understand about interacting with a computer for music, and move ahead or just move on.

 

I'm at a point now where I specifically look for products that run in UVI as opposed to Kontakt, I love UVI's general host interface, and its extreme easiness in mapping any parameter to a control surface. Seems way less resource-hungry, too.

[Fleer]

And then there’s (the) Falcon,,,

[Bill Heins]

I use Falcon to host the Ravenscroft

 

Bill