The Anti-Keyboardists

[Tusker]

21 hours ago, Legatoboy said:

Very transparent how people define themselves through their ego's in Rock and Roll..really in any art...art/music in general has alot of this type of stuff going on in it ... sometimes best to say nothing if your digging the gig or give them a crumb to make themselves feel better about themselves peridocally. I understand the 'string only mentality' all to well ... People will define you through their perceived personal 'strengths' and positions in almost anything not just music .... and often, they feel they gain strength by defining themselves by rejecting others ..... sort of 'working from fear' ... which is never good for anyone , but you can't tell folks like that that.... they need the crutch to keep going!  We all have that going on to some degree in life, but best to keep tabs on that sort of stuff if you want to grow as a person and in life in general ....     I have really no trouble with any instrument or players of ..... I play a bit of guitar.... it's a relaxing axe, easy to get in the door on..  with a beautiful tone (acoustic or non), always did...oh well! 

 

 

Yes, when it happens which thankfully is not often, it's because of insecurity. The band Queen put a No Synthesizers! label on four of its albums:

 

 

But it seems the band was insecure because a Melody Maker writer had written that they had synthesizers in the band, suggesting they were pop and not real rock. Synthesizers were new and nerdy, and Queen wanted people to give credit to Brian May for his hard work. (A brilliant guitarist and sound designer.) But the band also wanted to appear cool to rock fans. With NME (another British rag) attacking Freddie Mercury's "cosmic castrato" it was important to appear rootsy rather than nerdy. Once established, Queen embraced synths and happily made pop hits with them.

 

As you said, it's mostly in rock and when it happens, it stems from insecurity. Many of those insecurities are products of a particular time and thankfully are fading.

 

 

 

 

 

[stoken6]

2 hours ago, Tusker said:

The band Queen put a No Synthesizers! label on four of its albums:

I also heard that Queen put that on their albums not because they didn't like synths, but because some of the sonic effects and textures on their songs could be mistakenly attributed to synths, and they wanted to correct that misconception. (This explanation accompanies yours, but doesn't contradict it, of course).

 

Cheers, Mike.

[Tusker]

31 minutes ago, stoken6 said:

I also heard that Queen put that on their albums not because they didn't like synths, but because some of the sonic effects and textures on their songs could be mistakenly attributed to synths, and they wanted to correct that misconception. (This explanation accompanies yours, but doesn't contradict it, of course).

 

Cheers, Mike.

 

👍 👍 Yes of course. Firstly Queen felt defensive as a band when thought of as Pop and not Rock, and secondly the band wanted Brian May's efforts to be recognized. Perhaps I was too cryptic in my statement?

 

"Synthesizers were new and nerdy, and Queen wanted people to give credit to Brian May for his hard work. (A brilliant guitarist and sound designer.)"

 

For me, Brian May occupies that rarefied space of someone who can play like a guitarist but also like many other instruments. Pat Metheny, Frank Zappa and Fripp/Belew are similarly broad in their imagination and deserve nothing but applause. Unfortunately Queen's statement in support of the guitar was widely received as a diss of synthesizers. Such misunderstandings have happened. They don't have to.

[TJ Cornish]

3 hours ago, Tusker said:

 

As you said, it's mostly in rock and when it happens, it stems from insecurity. Many of those insecurities are products of a particular time and thankfully are fading.

 

I’m curious how old some of the stories in this thread are. Now that keys have been established for 50 years and have sounded good for the last 10 (meaning the ability to replicate other instruments like piano, Hammond, etc., obviously there have been good synth sounds for more than 50 years) I think this sentiment is either found in specific individuals who have ego problems (a concern in every generation), a legitimate concern where they maybe have had the reverse experience where keys players steal all the guitar lines, or a conscious decision to have a particular sound in the band (where hopefully they would have the sense/courtesy to not invite a keyboardist only to not let them play).

 

When I’m teaching keyboard playing - usually to folks who have only piano experience, I say the first rule of keyboards is “don’t play guitar sounds”. This doesn’t mean don’t ever play guitar lines - sometimes there isn’t a guitarist and the keys player needs to cover it, but there is a need to look at this from an orchestration perspective rather than a copy machine perspective.

 

As an aside - the problem I have is not enough of either keyboardists or guitarists that have anything beyond basic skills. I’m a church guy and the world is filled with churches that would love to have skilled musicians but don’t. In many parts of the country, this is one of the best places for playing live music. I’ll leave the faith part of the discussion out of this thread, but my life has been made full and meaningful through my involvement in church and related groups.

[jazzpiano88]

1 hour ago, TJ Cornish said:

I’m curious how old some of the stories in this thread are. Now that keys have been established for 50 years and have sounded good for the last 10 (meaning the ability to replicate other instruments like piano, Hammond, etc., obviously there have been good synth sounds for more than 50 years)……

That could be a partial factor.   Back when I was a teen I could not stand to listen to the Doors because of Maranzek’s keyboard sounds, his droning sounding solos, and the weird melodic lines (Riders on the Storm being an exception).  

But that was just one band, for me, a keyboard player.      Who knows, with keyboards being a focus of that band, exposure to the Doors could have driven non-keyboardists away in general like bad sushi.   

[Tusker]

1 hour ago, TJ Cornish said:

I’m curious how old some of the stories in this thread are. Now that keys have been established for 50 years and have sounded good for the last 10 (meaning the ability to replicate other instruments like piano, Hammond, etc., obviously there have been good synth sounds for more than 50 years) I think this sentiment is either found in specific individuals who have ego problems (a concern in every generation), a legitimate concern where they maybe have had the reverse experience where keys players steal all the guitar lines, or a conscious decision to have a particular sound in the band (where hopefully they would have the sense/courtesy to not invite a keyboardist only to not let them play).

 

 

I think it varies. As I mentioned, most of the time I am privileged to play with guitarists who treat keyboardists with respect. We are focusing here on the exceptions.

 

But to illustrate your third point (a conscious decision for a particular sound or a particular role for keyboards vs. guitars) here's a quick story. Recently I was invited to a jam and was asked to prepare this cover of Move on Up by the Delvon Lamarr Organ Trio. As we began this song, the guitarist asked me nonchalantly if I could play rhythm so he could play lead. I told him sure. I quickly switched to a clav sound and pulled it off. I know how to be a reliable sideman. But it was unexpected. 😅

 

[OrpheusNY]

I recall that Boston also put “no synthesizers, no computers” on their records, which was probably due to many of the same reasons Queen did, as Brian May and Tom Scholz were both mad scientists of guitar tone.

 

Given the amount of effort and know-how they both demonstrated, it doesn’t bother me at all. Mad scientists of guitar deserve their due.

[Tusker]

1 hour ago, OrpheusNY said:

I recall that Boston also put “no synthesizers, no computers” on their records, which was probably due to many of the same reasons Queen did, as Brian May and Tom Scholz were both mad scientists of guitar tone.

 

Given the amount of effort and know-how they both demonstrated, it doesn’t bother me at all. Mad scientists of guitar deserve their due.

 

Well deserved indeed. 👍 👍 Yet they were also channeling this weird Spinal Tap sensibility that transistors made the rock-n-roll honest.

 

[The Real MC]

4 hours ago, TJ Cornish said:

When I’m teaching keyboard playing - usually to folks who have only piano experience, I say the first rule of keyboards is “don’t play guitar sounds”. This doesn’t mean don’t ever play guitar lines - sometimes there isn’t a guitarist and the keys player needs to cover it, but there is a need to look at this from an orchestration perspective rather than a copy machine perspective.

 

Guitar is my 3rd instrument and I'm pretty competent with rhythm playing and amps.  When I got my Kurzweil ROMpler one of the sample was distorted guitar and I thought "oh cool I can play guitar chords and solos on keyboards"

Corniest damn keyboard sound I ever played.  YUCK.  None of the dynamics or expression like a real guitar.  ZERO.  Sometimes I'll double a guitar riff with a Wurly or an Oberheim brass sound and it does work from an orchestral perspective.

[TJ Cornish]

53 minutes ago, The Real MC said:

 

Guitar is my 3rd instrument and I'm pretty competent with rhythm playing and amps.  When I got my Kurzweil ROMpler one of the sample was distorted guitar and I thought "oh cool I can play guitar chords and solos on keyboards"

Corniest damn keyboard sound I ever played.  YUCK.  None of the dynamics or expression like a real guitar.  ZERO.  Sometimes I'll double a guitar riff with a Wurly or an Oberheim brass sound and it does work from an orchestral perspective.

The secret to playing guitar sounds on a keyboard (other than not doing it at all) is to voice them like they would be voiced on guitar strings. A simple major triad chord never comes out of a guitar.  Some of the challenge is you need to spread your hands a long way to match the string spread.

 

My favorite “Why is the universe this way?” Moment is the fact that one of the most recognizable synth sounds - the Oberheim saw strings on Jump - was played by a guitar player. In the other direction, one of the most famous bass lines - all of the stuff on Seinfeld - was played on a Korg M1.  

[counterpoint]

While I am a fan of both Queen and Boston, it is a thin argument to classify the electronic wizardry May and Scholz used to create their sounds as something materially different from "synthesis".  I know I regret many of the "purist" attitudes I carried about many different things in my younger years...I wouldn't be surprised if May and Scholz also mellowed as to this issue. 

 

Funny...one of my closest friends, a guitarist I have played off and on with for over 45 years, recently purchased a Fishman Triple Play so he could play classic 80's synth sounds from his guitar...wondering if I should I be resentful or proud...

[ProfD]

IMO, Rock music has been dominated by guitar for so long that despite advancements in KB technology, most KB players have been relegated to 3rd fiddle.

 

In the 1980s, synth technology opened up sub-genres of Rock music in which KBs were either front and center or heavily influenced the music.

 

In the 1990s, the Grunge movement kicked KB players out of the band.

 

Thankfully, folks like Trent Reznor decided to take matters into his own hands. 

 

As a KB player, it really comes down to finding a band that wants to play music that respects and values KBs. 

 

Unless so desired, KB players should not go into a relationship, er, band situation being the other woman i.e. side piece. 😎

[Threadslayer]

17 hours ago, ProfD said:

Unless so desired, KB players should not go into a relationship, er, band situation being the other woman i.e. side piece. 

<sob!> I feel so USED

[HammondDave]

I can only say one thing after watching this:  Nugent is a supreme a**hole.  
 

(I was really hoping that Darwin’s Theory would hold and he would have shot his left hand off with his pistol)

[Stokely]

I've heard road stories from a drummer who was on tour with Nugent (with Rick Derringer iirc) that made anything I've ever read about him look tame.   The thread will get locked if I say much about that "man".

[mate stubb]

Maybe The Nuge has forgotten that before he embraced his caveman clown act, he did some of his best music in the Amboy Dukes, partnered with the smokin' organ player Andy Solomon.

[Docbop]

1 hour ago, HammondDave said:

I can only say one thing after watching this:  Nugent is a supreme a**hole.  
 

(I was really hoping that Darwin’s Theory would hold and he would have shot his left hand off with his pistol)

 

One of the artists I did sound for a while the singer sang for one of the later versions of Nugents original band the Amboy Dukes.   I couldn't believe all the crap he said that band did bouncing around the country in a van.    So I have zero respect for Nugent and all his "hey man he plays fast" type fans.  After working with the singer I have no doubt his Nugent stories were true. 

[SamuelBLupowitz]

On 1/6/2024 at 9:52 AM, ProfD said:

I saw a performance by American punk rock band Green Day on a New Year's Eve TV show.

 

Sure enough, Green Day's touring KB player Jason Freese is set up behind a stack of guitar amps.

 

It's only by accident that the KB player was in any band shots as the camera pans. Every now and then there was a glimpse of his hat. He looked like an off-stage-hand. Any KB parts were buried in the mix.

I think we're looking at a different beast when a well-established band like Green Day, who rose to fame as a punk-influenced guitar-bass-drums power trio, adds a touring keyboardist so that they can play some of the more eclectic songs from their catalog. A lot of Queen or Beatles songs are entirely guitar driven, but you couldn't do Bohemian Rhapsody or Let It Be without a piano. If Billie Joe Armstrong can't drop his guitar and sit down at the keys, somebody's gotta do it, and if they're getting paid, they might as well be up there to beef up the sound on all the other tunes, even if it's way down in the mix. I'm sure, in this case, Mr. Freese gets paid well enough that he doesn't mind, much like Rami Jaffee in the Foo Fighters who is almost always inaudible behind their wall of three guitar players ... until there's a moment in the set that features piano or Mellotron strings and that just has to be there.

 

It wouldn't be my ideal gig (paycheck aside), but I understand and appreciate it. These cover bands some of y'all have played in where they seem to resent your very presence, that I will NEVER understand.

 

 

3 hours ago, Stokely said:

I've heard road stories from a drummer who was on tour with Nugent (with Rick Derringer iirc) that made anything I've ever read about him look tame.   The thread will get locked if I say much about that "man".

 

If anyone is feeling particularly intense ire about Ted Nugent, there's a wonderful clip from the 70s floating around on the internet of Patti Smith punching him live on the radio.  

[JohnH]

On 1/7/2024 at 9:06 AM, Tusker said:

 

Well deserved indeed. 👍 👍 Yet they were also channeling this weird Spinal Tap sensibility that transistors made the rock-n-roll honest.

 

Scholz has this bizarre obsession with thinking people think his guitars sound like violins. Only he thinks that. He put that notice on several albums. Tom Scholz guitars sound like layered guitars. I've never listened to his music or any other that made me think " Gee who is the violinist? " Same as Kansas, you would have to be on your first day in music to think that the violin parts of Robby Steinhardt or David Ragsdale were playing guitars on the Kansas

albums. NO.

[Stokely]

That's hilarious!  I think I recall something about violins from the first album, but I thought it just meant that he was trying for an ensemble violin type of sound.  I didn't realize that was an actual concern  

Seems very quaint now with all the canned stuff that bands play.

[ProfD]

1 hour ago, SamuelBLupowitz said:

...adds a touring keyboardist so that they can play some of the more eclectic songs from their catalog.

They could use a track or trigger samples if it's a prominent part or drop the KB part altogether it's inaudible in the mix anyway.

 

1 hour ago, SamuelBLupowitz said:

If Billie Joe Armstrong can't drop his guitar and sit down at the keys, somebody's gotta do it, and if they're getting paid, they might as well be up there to beef up the sound on all the other tunes, even if it's way down in the mix.

That perception has reduced Rock KB players to an auxiliary side piece.😁

 

1 hour ago, SamuelBLupowitz said:

I'm sure, in this case, Mr. Freese gets paid well enough that he doesn't mind, much like Rami Jaffee in the Foo Fighters who is almost always inaudible behind their wall of three guitar players ...

Sure. Those KB players getting paid very well is one thing. However, it doesn't help to make KB players essential to the band.

 

1 hour ago, SamuelBLupowitz said:

These cover bands some of y'all have played in where they seem to resent your very presence, that I will NEVER understand.

That's definitely a head scratcher especially considering the KB rigs some folks schlep around.😎

[SamuelBLupowitz]

1 minute ago, ProfD said:

They could use a track or trigger samples if it's a prominent part or drop the KB part altogether it's inaudible in the mix anyway.

😎

Well, what I'm saying is that there *are* songs in the catalog with prominent keys parts. It's just not every song. If the choice is between "only bring the auxiliary guy out for a few songs" and "sure, play all night, even on songs where the keys will be mixed under the guitars as more of an extra sauce," I'd personally prefer the latter. And I'd certainly prefer it to hearing a prerecorded track or sample! Pay a musician to be up there.

 

4 minutes ago, ProfD said:

it doesn't help to make KB players essential to the band.

In this instance, these are bands that had no keyboards for many years of their multiple-album history, choosing to augment their sound with an additional player because some songs in their catalog DO feature, or benefit from, keys. Blissfully, they have the budget to have a guy onstage all the time instead of playing to a track for four songs out of the set. Would it be cool for the keyboard player if a band like that reworked all of their arrangements to feature more keys? Sure, but that's not the gig. It's still a far cry from "let's hear Jump without the keyboards." And we've all heard what can happen when you perform Jump with a track instead of a live keyboard player... 😉 

[ProfD]

1 hour ago, SamuelBLupowitz said:

If the choice is between "only bring the auxiliary guy out for a few songs" and "sure, play all night, even on songs where the keys will be mixed under the guitars as more of an extra sauce," I'd personally prefer the latter. And I'd certainly prefer it to hearing a prerecorded track or sample! Pay a musician to be up there.

We're not in disagreement.

 

I'm just a huge proponent and advocate for KB players and using musicians in general.

 

To that end, if a band has a KB player onstage for 1 song or a medley or whatever they should be seen and heard.

 

Now, if the KB player chooses to turn the volume down and/or pantomime playing...that's on them.😁😎

[TommyS]

This discussion reminds me of the three  instances I was in  where the incredibly loud and busy/ frantic guitar player  absolutely  demanded  the drummer leave his cymbals, other than the hi-hat, at home......

[stoken6]

On 1/8/2024 at 8:19 PM, JohnH said:

Scholz has this bizarre obsession with thinking people think his guitars sound like violins. Only he thinks that. He put that notice on several albums. Tom Scholz guitars sound like layered guitars. I've never listened to his music or any other that made me think " Gee who is the violinist? " Same as Kansas, you would have to be on your first day in music to think that the violin parts of Robby Steinhardt or David Ragsdale were playing guitars on the Kansas

albums. NO.

I've heard a Brian May part that sounds like a cello. Of course I can't find it now...

 

Cheers Mike.

[Stokely]

Someone mentioned big rigs getting shlepped around.  Which reminded me of something I've heard from multiple non-keys players in multiple bands (including my own, talking about a sub keys player they had for me during covid):

Non-keys players are not impressed by big rigs.  In fact, they strongly dislike them is my takeaway   They take up a lot of space--and at our level, space is often an issue--and they tend to take a while to set up and clutter up the stage while doing so.  We players are the ONLY people impressed by our keyboard gear, I know that for a fact.  Other than stands, on which I've gotten a few compliments over the years.   I had been using one keyboard in the band for a year when the singer asked me "is that a new keyboard?"     

In other words, they notice our rigs when we inconvenience them.  And to be fair, I used to notice our guitarist's big 'ol cab when it had to be jammed back into my space due to lack of room on stage, so I get it.   Thank the stars for direct rigs I say!

[SamuelBLupowitz]

43 minutes ago, Stokely said:

Non-keys players are not impressed by big rigs.  In fact, they strongly dislike them is my takeaway   

The space consideration is a real thing. But I will say that my guitar player always liked when I brought out the Wurlitzer and the clavinet because he thought it made the band look cooler/more legit. But then, that's why I've worked with that guitar player in almost every project I've gotten involved in for *checks calendar* the last ten years.

 

And now that I think about it, a touring band I've played with on and off was always more than happy to help move a Leslie and (when my predecessor was in the band) a Hammond chop in and out of the trailer, because, again, it just added an extra sheen of legitimacy to the project ("Grace Potter would lug her B3 in and out of tiny clubs before she made it big!").

 

So I think it comes down to that thing it ALWAYS comes down to, which is the luck of finding collaborators who support your insanity rather than merely tolerate or resent it. I've been lucky that I haven't had to deal with a lot of the "guitar is cool, keyboards are not" attitude that seems to plague a lot of the bands y'all have worked with.

[Threadslayer]

On 1/5/2024 at 1:43 PM, BenWaB3 said:

"The Anti-Keyboardists" Yeah, and they all end up making their wishes come true by becoming sound-men

I was about to say that in all my years of gigging, I had never experienced any real anti-keyboardism, but seeing this, I do recall a couple of soundmen with apparent anti-keyboard ears. I was in one band where the guitarist's wife would go over and pester the soundman to turn the keys up.

[ProfD]

1 hour ago, Stokely said:

Non-keys players are not impressed by big rigs.  In fact, they strongly dislike them is my takeaway   They take up a lot of space--and at our level, space is often an issue--and they tend to take a while to set up and clutter up the stage while doing so. 

IMO, it's an extension of anti-KB sentiment.  Especially if they either 1) don't appreciate KBs or 2) don't hear enough sound(s) coming out of them to justify schlepping so many KBs around.  Regardless of level it ultimately comes down to respect for the musician. 

 

Now, a case could be made against KB players bringing a monster KB rig only to play some sh8t that could be accomplished on a 61-note ROMpler.😎

[Stokely]

To be fair, I don't like big rigs myself    I mean, I can see the appeal of a fortress of keyboards like Tony Banks has, but someone has to move all that stuff in and set it up, and that someone would be me.

Also--and this is another subject where I hear little offhand digs all the time--the more gear I have, the harder it is to level patches unless that gear is kind of do-one-thing keyboard like a rhodes.   The band loves to mention how the keyboards jump up and down in volume, and the band I subbed with recently said the same thing about their regular guy, so it's not just me!