Samson direct box(es)

[Stokely]

Hey,

I have a Key Largo but these days I'm going all minimalistic with one keyboard...while the KL is hardly a behemoth, having another wall wart to set up when I really don't need a mixer irks me.

I was thinking after our sound engineer (not a pro any more than I am) recommended them of trying out a Samson MD2 pro stereo unit.  At 99 bucks that is far cheaper than stereo options by  Radial, especially the JDI one.   However, if it's noticeably worse in sound quality I'd rather "buy once cry once" and not look back.   Radial is a great company (really appreciated their help on something) and if I'm going to spend money for someone's products I could do worse  

Just curious if anyone has tried the Samson boxes. Reviews are good and apparently the outer build quality is rugged.  

 

Any other suggestions are welcome as well.  I'd like to be able to handle stereo, whether with one unit or two doesn't matter.  Having thrus would be good in case I want to hook up my DXR10 as an amp.

I will say that one reason I'm looking to save a bit of money is that it's very likely this minimalistic phase will pass (and return again)  So the Key Largo will be back in action if so.  I'm also considering folding in guitar, in which case I'll have an HX Stomp along with keys so I'll again need a mixer.

[timwat]

The thing with DIs is you only hear the differences between quality and pedestrian when you A/B them side by side...and we rarely have the opportunity to do that.

 

Years ago I had that opportunity (due to making purchase decisions for a church's worship ministry).

 

There are only two brands of DIs I would spend my own money on - Radial and Countryman.

 

Everyone gets to vote with their own, but since you asked. 

[mate stubb]

I've got a used JDI available in the Garage Sale...

[Baldwin Funster]

I've got monoprice,art, live tech (guitar center), behringer they all really sound the same. If you aren't recording an album in triple super HD I don't think it's worth anything to be all worried about. Are you using gold connectors and oxygen free cables? There are lots of places in your rig where any gain from an expensive DI box is going to go right down the sound hole.

[Adam Burgess]

You will notice saturation on anything bass heavy with cheap DIs like Samson/Behringer etc...

I'd go with your gut and get a Radial. I grabbed a JDI Duplex years ago and it's been brilliant.

[niacin]

i recently had much the same dilemma but just needed mono, got a Radial SB-2, has parallel out, very happy, you’d need two of them for stereo but their not so expensive.

 

[Reezekeys]

Is this for recording or playing gigs? That Samson looks perfectly fine to me, especially if it's for the latter.

[Stokely]

Only for gigs.  I'm pretty much all "in the box" with software instruments when doing recording.

Appreciate all the answers!  If I do end up with something like the Samson, I'll definitely be comparing it to the KL.  I also forgot that I have an ultra-cheapie mono DI from guitar center bought 15 years ago and used only a few times.  It cost something like 25 bucks back then.  It's been living in my backup case.

I'd heard bass can be an issue but I don't play anything in the bass registers, and in fact both the guitarist and I have high-pass EQ on our instruments when using our PA   Heathens!

[Reezekeys]

With transformers it's about how hard you hit them and the frequencies, and yes, bass can saturate and create distortion... but wait, we like that right? It's that "phat", "analog" sound, why, it will "warm up" your cold sterile digital gear! 🙂  IMO many people overthink this stuff... your DI is not going to make any major difference in how your gig goes. Of course the Radials are great – but one reason they have that rep is because they're built like tanks – that's why you see them used by sound companies that do 100+ gigs a year and throw them around like candy pieces. The average Joe Schmoe bringing their own personal gear to a few gigs a month may not need that degree of ruggedness.

 

On an AWB tour a few years back I used a cheap Peavey USB DI box to output drum loops – which had a lot of transients and low end – to FOH and monitors. The transformers (and DAC) were not exactly high-end (not for the $50 total I paid, that's for sure!). I found a thread on an audiophile web site site that reviewed this piece - it almost started a flame war between a few posters arguing whether it was total crap or well suited for it's purpose - live sound. I said my piece as well. The point is that our big tour came off without a hitch, and this cheap DI sounded absolutely fine. Of course I carried it with me - it didn't get thrown in our monitor mixer/setup guy's accessory bag and hauled around in the equipment van!

[The Real MC]

10 hours ago, timwat said:

There are only two brands of DIs I would spend my own money on - Radial and Countryman.

 

 

Same here.  You get what you pay for.

Samson is student level gear.

[Baldwin Funster]

Funny how some guys will refuse a $100 Ipad app but others will drop $250 on an audiophile level DI box.

 

I myself have spent $100 or more on iPad apps and never more than $35 on a DI box. I've never had  DI box fail and I've never heard bass distortion with one at a gig or in the studio. OK the studios usually have some Manley active DI preamp they use but even when I get the cheapo cause the Manley is taken, I can't recall ever hearing saturated bass.

 

I don't play anything with 88 keys so maybe thats why but even so a Radial would be overkill and over budget.

[CEB]

If the reviews are good and the price is nice give it a go.  If this is for typical bar and club live sound I would not sweat it.   If this was for direct recording or a quiet listening setting like a church maybe I would demand the Jensen transformers.   I’ve used about everything live and everything has sounded clean enough to work well over the noise pollution from the crowds and halls/rooms.  But that’s just me. 

[Stokely]

Well, I'm giving the Samson a try.  I'll do a 3-way recording (with volume matching best i can) between the KL, the Samson and my Live Wire cheapo box.  If the KL sounds noticeably better, back the Samson will go.  If the Live Wire sounds similar, then back the Samson will go and I'll just get another mono DI.

I think it's kind of likely the Key Largo will be back in action at some point, relegating whatever I get to backup duty, so as I gave it some thought that started to factor in more.

That, and an amazon gift card for the exact amount of the Samson.     

I'm very careful with gear...don't like it getting scratched let alone banged up.  Nothing ever gets thrown or tossed.   I have a rug that I use for non-carpeted stages for example     So that said, while reliability is tops I won't be abusing this like a sound company would.   I will say that I'm considering cancelling the order and going through Sweetwater to get the 2-year warranty, I'll see if Samson has anything from the manufacturer.  Edit: Samson also has a 2-year warranty, and I can return this through the end of Jan...so I'll stick with the order.

[KuruPrionz]

I own and use a Tech 21 Para Driver DI and a Q-Strip DI. 

Both are more than direct boxes. The Para Driver has a semi-parametric midrange (2 knobs) plus bass and treble controls. It also has a Drive and Blend controls for the SansAmp so you can blend in as much (or little) harmonic distortion as you want. It is mono, has both XLR and Line Out, great features in a small box with a footswitch. 

So you can switch the Drive in and out as needed.

I also have a Tech 21 Q-Strip DI, which is a DI with a 4 band EQ. Lo-Mid and High Mid are both quasi parametric. It's a fantastic box for bass, that and a good PA is all you need. 

I don't play keys but these might be worth trying out. 

[stoken6]

5 hours ago, Reezekeys said:

With transformers it's about how hard you hit them and the frequencies, and yes, bass can saturate and create distortion... but wait, we like that right? It's that "phat", "analog" sound, why, it will "warm up" your cold sterile digital gear! 🙂  IMO many people overthink this stuff... your DI is not going to make any major difference in how your gig goes. Of course the Radials are great – but one reason they have that rep is because they're built like tanks – that's why you see them used by sound companies that do 100+ gigs a year and throw them around like candy pieces. The average Joe Schmoe bringing their own personal gear to a few gigs a month may not need that degree of ruggedness.

Agree with both the points here.

 

I think the Samson you're looking at will be fine for this use case. They are not not like a no-name brand with too many vowels selling suspiciously cheap on Amazon.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[Mighty Motif Max]

Never used a Samson DI but I use one of their SM-10 line mixers when I have multi-board rigs but a limited number of channels at the mixer. While I also have a nice higher-end Ashley LX-308B for my rack, I don’t notice enough of a difference that would make it through a live venue’s mixer, sound tech person, and whatever PA they have. The LX does make everything that touches it sound better though.

 

For DI’s I’ve exclusively owned and used Rapco-Horizon boxes since I started gigging in 2010 (I’ve owned mine since 2015 and have had zero issues) - typically the DB-1’s but also they have a nice stereo box with mono summing which is a nice touch. Not sure what the general consensus is on those, but I’ve been more than happy with them.

[cassdad]

Hmmm…. (or hummm?):  I have 2 stereo boxes that in the past I’ve used as DI boxes, but now I’m questioning whether that is correct or not!  They are “Ebtech Hum Eliminator” stereo boxes.  I can use them to switch from 1/4 inch to XLR and vice versa.  Soooo….  do any of you know:

[Short Question summary:  Can a hum eliminator box serve as a “DI box”?  And can the line outs from an amp serve as a “DI box”?}

 

1). Can a “Hum Eliminator” adequately serve as a valid DI box?

2). Does anyone know if the specs are any good on these Ebtech Hum Eliminator boxes?  (I think maybe they are now made by “Morley”, they look identical).

Anyone know?

 

3) Also, one more related question:  I recently purchased a new Motion Sound KP-612SX amp, which, among other outputs, has “Left Out” and “Right Out” (both XLR line outs).  I went back to Motion Sound and asked them if phantom was accidentally turned on, would it hurt my amp.  Their written response was that no, it will not hurt the amp.  Accordingly, I intend to use those as my “DI” outs.  Is that a correct usage?

[Stokely]

No expert, but from Radial's site on a DI:

"What exactly is a Direct Box? A DI box, also called a direct box, converts the unbalanced, high impedance signal output of an instrument to a balanced low impedance mic-level signal. This enables the signal to travel distances of 100 meters (300 feet) without adding appreciable noise."

If your amp, or a keyboard, has balanced outs I wouldn't think you'd need a DI (though most likely you'd have line level, not mic level).  Whether it's mic or line level probably won't matter to FOH, they either have a mic/line switch or the preamp just handles it in my (somewhat limited) experience.

Ironically, my cable runs to the main mixer (no snake) are short enough that I might not need a DI even with unbalanced keyboard outputs, but it's a just-in-case thing for me.   Any gig with a sound company they provide them but I like to be prepared just in case.  I haven't had any hum or buzz in many years so don't fix what ain't broken

I found a forum post about hum eliminators vs dis.  Being a forum post, grain of salt   They said that the HI box converts line unbalanced to line balanced, while the DI goes from line to mic balanced.   The HIs are similar to passive DI boxes in other respects.  Both can get rid of hum.   I'd say those should work though I'd use your ears to see if any "tone suck" is happening.

[Mills Dude]

Using your amp XLR line outs should work fine, I assume they are balanced outs.  However there are a few advantages to using a quality DI.

1. Electronic isolation - protection from phantom power and ground loops.
2. Level normalization - lowering your signal from line level to mic level

Not sure what the purpose of the 'Hum Eliminator' is but a quick google search seems to indicate it has isolating transformers which should address #1. 

 

In the past I had used an RD700SX, which had balanced XLR line level outs, in certain situations direct into a mixing board. This board didn't have any isolation, phantom didn't bother it but it could be susceptible to ground loops.  The real issue at times though was the line level output.  In certain situations, dealing with 'less experienced' sound personnel, they see XLR and just assume mic level.  In those situations attempting to explain the differences did no good, those were the types that also seemed not very open to letting me adjust the gain staging properly.

 

I don't regret buying a Radial JDI Duplex, yeah its a bit pricey but it serves its purpose really well. For the local guy with a PA, hired to do some community show, it gives them a level they expect and we can both get on with our respective jobs with minimal hassle. I have that extra protection knowing that I'm shielded from their system.  For a professional sound person running around like crazy and running low on their set of DIs, I just show them my Radial. They know its quality stuff and there won't be many issues coming from me.

 

I also have a pair of Whirlwind DIRECT2 DIs. I used to play with a drummer that used a Roland TD electric kit with individual outs, hence the 4 channels - kick, snare, toms and cymbals.  Never had any issues with these and they worked and sounded great. I wouldn't have any issue using the Samson mentioned by the OP. For my personal rig, happy to have the Radial and the peace of mind it brings.

[Baldwin Funster]

Simple and in few words.

Balanced or unbalanced line level is going to be high impedance.  If the mixer is more that 25 feet away the impedance load will degrade the signal. Convert to low impedance and you can go 300 ft.

That's probably why xlr cables have a M and F end and can be hooked together for long distance and 1/4 ended cables typically dont.

 

[Stokely]

I'm actually using 35 foot balanced XLR from my Key Largo to the main mixer in my custom split-sleeve snake ...that makes me wonder if I'm getting a less than optimal signal, as iirc the outputs are line level.

If I actually get the energy to do some testing, it might be worth putting that snake into the test.
I could record the following, all playing the same midi recording (so no difference in performance):
keyboard alone (unbalanced short cables)
Key largo (short cables, then with snake)
Samson DI
Live Wire DI ($25 emergency el cheapo)

 

No promises, all that takes work   I'll have to fumble around with getting Logic to work with external instruments, I've only done it once and it was a bit unintuitive.  Hopefully I saved that session  

[Reezekeys]

3 hours ago, Stokely said:

I'm actually using 35 foot balanced XLR from my Key Largo to the main mixer in my custom split-sleeve snake ...that makes me wonder if I'm getting a less than optimal signal, as iirc the outputs are line level.

 

Why would a signal be "less than optimal" because it's line level?

[D. Gauss]

you can find used Radial ProD2 for 100 bucks maybe a bit more. if not they're 200 new.  samson is probably fine.  the Radial ProD2 i've used many times, and it just works.

[cassdad]

5 hours ago, Reezekeys said:

 

Why would a signal be "less than optimal" because it's line level?

I think the issue is “impedance”?

[Reezekeys]

The Key Largo' XLR outputs are transformer-coupled low impedance - is there an issue there I'm not aware of? Do low-impedance XLRs have to be mic level?

[cassdad]

2 hours ago, Reezekeys said:

The Key Largo' XLR outputs are transformer-coupled low impedance - is there an issue there I'm not aware of? Do low-impedance XLRs have to be mic level?

I do not know, way beyond my level.  Hoping someone knowledgeable can help.

[timwat]

Impedance and level (mic or line) are two different things. Balanced or unbalanced is yet another variable. There are plenty of interwebz articles discussing the fundamentals of Ohm's law, instrument vs. microphone vs. line level, the characteristics of high vs. low impedance and how balanced lines work and why they are useful. 

 

Here's one from SWAMP.

 

Many devices output a balanced, line level signal - the main XLR outputs of a mixing desk are a common example.

 

And many amplifiers accept unbalanced and balanced signals - you may note that a Yamaha DXR powered speaker, for example, accepts unbalanced 1/4" inputs, as well as balanced XLR inputs - with a toggle switch to accommodate low microphone level signals as well as higher level line level signals (like from your mixer, or, in this example, your Key Largo).

[Baldwin Funster]

I've seen XLR inputs that were line level balanced on a Carver power amp. Meant to be fed by the XLR outputs of a mixer that are probably high impedance but I could be wrong. But I don't think I am.

That's the only usage of line level high impedance I've seen. I'm sure the odd 90s lexicon or other studio rack piece could have anything.