OT - Rant : The guitar player and his view on keyboard amps

[stoken6]

6 hours ago, niacin said:

You might assume the guitarist was hearing too much keys - remember you’re both occupying the same bandwidth - accept it as a valid concern, ignore the speaker size comment (which is just ignorant), and apologise and tell him next time if he can let you know that you’re too loud in his ears you’d be happy to angle your amp more away from him, noting the mix out front as evidenced by audience comments and the recordings was really good. You really don’t want to get into a volume war cause he turns up cause he can’t hear himself over your keys. That he didn't just turn his amp up is a pretty big plus imo. 

+120 (decibels). 

 

6 hours ago, niacin said:

Or buy the most powerful 8-inch powered speaker you can find, make a song and dance about agreeing with him and taking on his advice, put it on an pole, roll off the bottom end, aim it at his head, and fire. And invest in some ear protection cause you'll need it for the ensuing war.

And that's the point at which it gets stupid. If your band colleagues can't be sensible and mature about volume, it's time to quit, I'm afraid..

 

Cheers, Mike.

[elif]

On 12/1/2023 at 12:09 PM, Jose EB5AGV said:

The guitar player says that "I don't understand why you need such a powerful amplifier, there are smaller speakers that would do the job for a keyboard"

"Oh. Is it powerful?  I bought it because I thought it was pretty."

[gestures as if turning a knob] "It has a volume control."

"I need it for my other bands."

"I'm sponsored. They pay me to use it on stage."

[cassdad]

Kind of related:  I often play in a band where the guitarist believes he’s playing at a reasonable level (he’s not, but let’s just say he might be) - but he has his amp firing up into his microphone, that he leaves on all the time…. so he is actually quite loud out of the FOH PA (and monitors).  (More rationale supporting the use of IEMs!). This is a recent development, in that previously he fired his amp down low, through his shins, thus determining his volume by the reflection volume from the rear wall of the venue….  ugh!

[harmonizer]

Sometimes when someone other than me played keys in our band I felt their keys playing was getting in the way. Sometimes it was them playing too loud, but more often the problem was too much sustained notes (either by holding the keys down or overuse of sustain pedal), or a bad patch choice or the voicing/placement of chords they are playing. When a keys player and rhythm guitarist are both playing chords, they need to figure out how to get out of each other's way enough so that both instruments can be heard. Sometimes that means carefully figuring out the voicings and fretboard/keyboard placement used on the original. Sometimes it's figuring out your own solution, since sometimes a studio recording can be mixed in a way that sounds ok, but using that same playing live will result in mud. I really don't think the size of the keyboard amplification matters: My EV zx-a1 (8" driver) has plenty of power to create a living hell for my bandmates if I make the wrong choices for when to play, voicings, patches, or sustained notes. 

[Docbop]

29 minutes ago, harmonizer said:

When a keys player and rhythm guitarist are both playing chords, they need to figure out how to get out of each other's way

 

That's a decades old problem that boils down to a piano players favorite range to play in, is the guitar players only range they have.  Then there's the bass players like legend Ron Carter who tells piano players to stay within the S's in "Steinway and Sons".  Or legend Sonny Rollins who uses a guitar player instead of a piano his reason.... piano is too big and steps on everyone.  Everyone has to find the hole they can play in timbrely, rhythmically within a tune.    It's like mixing a record you can hear an inexperienced they try to make every track BIG AND FAT as they EQ each on separately,  then wonder why their mix sounds like mud from all the summing of frequencies going on.   

 

There is a lot more to it than the volume of a single player in the band, or the easiest to hear instrument so it seems louder.  The great rhythm sections work together most is done with listening and head nods.   

[kpl1228]

On 12/1/2023 at 11:46 AM, timwat said:

 

But if a dude told me that after a gig I burned on, I'd be helping him "understand" later in the parking lot.

 

 

 

Ha! Outstanding.

Blending with guitarists can take a while for all concerned. In my experience, a good keyboard player with good gear and an even better attitude is as rare and coveted as a lefthanded relief pitcher with a 100 mph fastball. Most guitar players are thrilled when such a keyboard player shows up, it gives the bands a lot more options than Clapton and Bad Company covers all night. We're not as common as we all think we are, especially to guitar-based bands. Your story is not uncommon, but probably nothing a discussion and a beverage couldn't fix.

At least you BROUGHT your own amp! That's showing some initiative right there. Amazed how many gigging keyboard players don't even OWN an amp or PA cabinet for themselves and always assume they can just show up and "run through the PA like I always do" (saying "here ya go" and handing nothing but a frayed 15' instrument cable to the sound guy). That stuff makes me embarrased for my own tribe.

[Dave Keys]

I'm very glad that the bands I play in nowadays both have decent guitarists with no egos. This thread has reminded me that it wasn't always like this and to count my blessings. To be honest it's often the hobbyists who get like this, and the pro's are just fine. 

[Legatoboy]

the guitarist is being a jackass!  

[Tusker]

Is he speaking as the guitar player or the band leader? What does the band leader say?

[KuruPrionz]

20 hours ago, Docbop said:

 

That's a decades old problem that boils down to a piano players favorite range to play in, is the guitar players only range they have.  

 

There is a lot more to it than the volume of a single player in the band, or the easiest to hear instrument so it seems louder.  The great rhythm sections work together most is done with listening and head nods.   

"That's a decades old problem that boils down to a piano players favorite range to play in, is the guitar players only range they have.  "

 

I'll never understand the false animosity on this forum regarding guitarists. Your first sentence is absurd in my experience, your last sentence is truth.

If it is the guitarist's band and you don't like the way they play, find another band. If it is your band and you don't like the guitarist, find another guitarist. 

Life is simple, making stuff up is simple too but it doesn't always reflect well. 

 

50+ years of playing in various bands and there are always going to be musicians who overplay everything. You name it, I've heard it. Drummers playing solos all the way through songs, keyboard players who play bass and melody parts and leave no silence anywhere, guitarist who know 3 licks and use them all over and over, bassists who want to toss in high lead parts at every opportunity. I'm a guitarist who plays bass if needed and when I play bass, I play bass. Too many players practice at home by themselves and learn to fill in every empty space. Recording music on a multi-track system will quickly educate the over-indulgence. 

 

All it takes is an understanding of the value of silence, nothing more. The more band members there are, the more silence should be "played" by every member. That said, I leave silence as part of the songs when I perform solo on acoustic guitar, there is no reason to strum/bang through everything all the time and I do hear that often. 

 

By far the best way to learn is to record. I used to record the performances of bands I was in and give them to all the band members. I never said a word to any of them about what they were doing, the recording would tell them clearly if there was something amiss, it's pretty obvious. 

[Jose EB5AGV]

25 minutes ago, KuruPrionz said:

 

By far the best way to learn is to record. I used to record the performances of bands I was in and give them to all the band members. I never said a word to any of them about what they were doing, the recording would tell them clearly if there was something amiss, it's pretty obvious. 

 

I do a similar thing also, recording all rehearsals with an ambient microphone and also recording my keyboard directly from my monitor output on a different track (the Zoom H6 is handy for this), so I can check all my mistakes 😬 and find out if my playing was adding to the song or not, to perfect it.

 

2 hours ago, Tusker said:

Is he speaking as the guitar player or the band leader? What does the band leader say?

 

One of our problems is that there is not a band leader. I joined the band about one year and a half ago, in March 2022. It is my first band and I am the greener musician. But the rest of the members have lots more experience. So I am learning all about it day by day. And I have learnt a lot also by reading this forum. As, for example, that a clearly defined leader should be a must. But no, the two older members (being in the band for about 13 years), bass player (father) and drummer (son) seemed to me like the leaders when I joined. Then the guitar player, which joined a month before me (February 2022) has also good ideas on arranging, but as a newcomer, is not the leader. Nor are the sax player (joined May 2022) or female singer (joined October 2022). I think our new Christmas dinner will be a good time to put this on the table!

[KuruPrionz]

7 minutes ago, Jose EB5AGV said:

 

I do a similar thing also, recording all rehearsals with an ambient microphone and also recording my keyboard directly from my monitor output on a different track (the Zoom H6 is handy for this), so I can check all my mistakes 😬 and find out if my playing was adding to the song or not, to perfect it.

 

 

One of our problems is that there is not a band leader. I joined the band about one year and a half ago, in March 2022. It is my first band and I am the greener musician. But the rest of the members have lots more experience. So I am learning all about it day by day. And I have learnt a lot also by reading this forum. As, for example, that a clearly defined leader should be a must. But no, the two older members (being in the band for about 13 years), bass player (father) and drummer (son) seemed to me like the leaders when I joined. Then the guitar player, which joined a month before me (February 2022) has also good ideas on arranging, but as a newcomer, is not the leader. Nor are the sax player (joined May 2022) or female singer (joined October 2022). I think our new Christmas dinner will be a good time to put this on the table!

A great leader works with his band members to achieve successful results. It may be best to delegate the various leadership responsibilities to individuals who have the experience and talent to execute the needed tasks. In other words, maybe one band member is good at arrangements, another is a "people person" and would be good at booking gigs, etc. Not a bad thing to have a "hub" (leader) but that could just result in overloading one person. Be a team!!!!

[Jose EB5AGV]

1 minute ago, KuruPrionz said:

A great leader works with his band members to achieve successful results. It may be best to delegate the various leadership responsibilities to individuals who have the experience and talent to execute the needed tasks. In other words, maybe one band member is good at arrangements, another is a "people person" and would be good at booking gigs, etc. Not a bad thing to have a "hub" (leader) but that could just result in overloading one person. Be a team!!!!

 

Yes, this is the way it works now, sharing responsabilities. But for sure is not the best not to have a leader over all of us. Take that as an example: yesterday we shot a video for an upcoming band song. Well, I had no clue until yesterday what I was going to do there... Nobody knew exacty except one of the members who decided all (he is the drummer and one of the band founders). And, well, all band members had an spot on several takes, except myself. I was just on the final full band take. Did I feel ignored?. Sure!. Would it be different with a real band leader, overseeing this kind of things?. I guess it would be

[KuruPrionz]

4 minutes ago, Jose EB5AGV said:

 

Yes, this is the way it works now, sharing responsabilities. But for sure is not the best not to have a leader over all of us. Take that as an example: yesterday we shot a video for an upcoming band song. Well, I had no clue until yesterday what I was going to do there... Nobody knew exacty except one of the members who decided all (he is the drummer and one of the band founders). And, well, all band members had an spot on several takes, except myself. I was just on the final full band take. Did I feel ignored?. Sure!. Would it be different with a real band leader, overseeing this kind of things?. I guess it would be

Gotcha, yes it is good to have a consensus. It sounds like something you could bring it up in a positive light and promote the drummer as the central hub. You could all still pitch in but more organized. Moments like the one you mention are probably not so numerous as to be a problem. 

[Tusker]

2 hours ago, Jose EB5AGV said:

I think our new Christmas dinner will be a good time to put this on the table!

 

Politically speaking of course it's not. 😅 Always better for someone else to bring up the subject (if they dare) that you are too loud.  Some of these volume issues may fade away in rehearsal or in performance. Bands almost always have volume conversations. Much better to spend your airtime at the Christmas dinner talking about what you unites you, rather than what separates you. Better for the band. Better for you. 

 

 

[Jose EB5AGV]

25 minutes ago, Tusker said:

 

Politically speaking of course it's not. 😅 Always better for someone else to bring up the subject (if they dare) that you are too loud.  Some of these volume issues may fade away in rehearsal or in performance. Bands almost always have volume conversations. Much better to spend your airtime at the Christmas dinner talking about what you unites you, rather than what separates you. Better for the band. Better for you. 

 

 

 

Yes, I see your point. BTW, I wanted to write "next" Xmas dinner, not "new", but you understood correctly. Well, I mentioned that dinner because it is the next time, on 14th December, we will meet on, let's hope, good mood, and so maybe there is a moment when we can talk about the future of the band, and that could include the leadership question. For sure I would introduce also the arrangement topic, as it is not clearly stablished how we do them.

 

All in all, I use to be cautious so, if there is no place for those topics, I will not push them. I tend to listen more than speak.

 

Thank you ALL for your comments on this. I now have a broader view and hope will be able to get some lessons from it. All in all, I play just for fun. But, well, we are living beings with feelings and they can be hurt even if this, for me, is just a hobby 😅

 

Also, please, take into account that I am Spanish and is hard for me to explain subttleties as feelings and delicate situations 🙏

[Baggypants]

I once told a guitar player I thought his signal was clipping quite a bit and he should back off his preamp to get a cleaner tone.

 

He didn't appreciate it.

[Delaware Dave]

On 12/1/2023 at 12:35 PM, Stokely said:

Opinions are like ***holes.  Everybody has one.

 

and they all stink ..

[Stokely]

2 hours ago, Tusker said:

 

Politically speaking of course it's not. 😅 Always better for someone else to bring up the subject (if they dare) that you are too loud.  Some of these volume issues may fade away in rehearsal or in performance. Bands almost always have volume conversations. Much better to spend your airtime at the Christmas dinner talking about what you unites you, rather than what separates you. Better for the band. Better for you. 

 

 

Boy is this ever true.  At least volume issues are band/music related.  It's an unspoken law, but our band almost never veers into divisive subjects and hasn't for the 12 years I've been in it.  Talking about the same things this forum forbids, and for the same reason     My buddy's band has constant political rants from certain members and I'd put up with that exactly once.

If you did want to rehash the volume stuff, don't do it at a dinner IMO.

Frankly it's just something to shrug off though as I said before perhaps try to aim your amp a bit away from the guitarist.  He might just be one of those people who doesn't care if he hears no keyboards.

I get sidelong remarks about patch volumes from time to time, I don't respond.  If someone wants to have an adult discussion about it, I'm willing to do that.  I'm not going to respond to remarks though.

[Iconoclast]

I would just explain it to him and use small words.

And if that doesn't work, try speaking guitar to him:
"I mean how are you supposed to get that "piano in the room" feel""
"How else can I get feedback?"
"Tubes just make everything sound better.""
"Its Vintage!"
"This IS my small rig" Then show him pictures of Geoff Downes Asia touring rig.

[Iconoclast]

7 hours ago, Baggypants said:

I once told a guitar player I thought his signal was clipping quite a bit and he should back off his preamp to get a cleaner tone.

 

He didn't appreciate it.

I once told a dude, "For the first time in my life I don't think I can hear the snare"

Actually really liked the guy and he was a great player, but he was a gear hound and was addicted to those vintage amps with no master volume. Just couldn't keep the volume in line. Anyway we haven't played together since and I'm a little bummed about it, but he's just gotta listen to the band more than himself.

[stoken6]

11 hours ago, Iconoclast said:

try speaking guitar to him:
"I mean how are you supposed to get that "piano in the room" feel""
"How else can I get feedback?"
"Tubes just make everything sound better.""
"Its Vintage!"
"This IS my small rig" Then show him pictures of Geoff Downes Asia touring rig.

I'm going to use this! "It's my tone, man. I can't play if I can't feel it"

 

Cheers, Mike.