Well, lookie here... Roland's got something new in store for the Fantom

[DmitryKo]

16 hours ago, Artomas said:

I bet there will need to be some trade-off at the keyboard... either you lose a bunch of polyphony (talking about the imminent Fantom ACB update) per ACB model, or you can't run the V-piano at the same time as ACB, or something else along those lines.

 

14 hours ago, ElmerJFudd said:

Based on polyphony limitations we already see on the Fantom it’s unlikely to affect V-Piano since it has a dedicated chip.  So if you want to layer acoustic pianos you’re better off using the V-Piano over the sampled pianos. Unless the suggestion is that they are running ACB on the Vpiano’s DSP. 

 

Yes, polyhpony and timbrality is the question. I don't think physical models are fixed to any dedicated BCM chip - at least Roland refers to a dynamically allocated polyphony and not some fixed number of voices per each engine (unlike for example the Yamaha Montage/MODX). 

 

FYI there are four BCM (Behavior Modeling Core) chips in the Fantom, as was confirmed in that article - these are embedded CPU/DSP processors which run Zen Core sample-based SuperNatural synthesis, ABM (Analog Behavior Modeling) emulations, V-Piano modeling, and n/zyme wavetable/analog synthesis. 

 

20 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

Maybe because the new ACB model will only run on the Fantom, and not the Fantom-0?

 

I thought Fantom-0 uses the same number of BMC chips... does it? I couldn't find whether BMC chips were ever employed for ACB (Analog Circuit Behavior) emulation in other products.

 

At least Fantom-0 has the same maximum polyphony count, though it doesn't support V-Piano and n/zyme engines or stereo analog filter.

https://support.roland.com/hc/en-us/articles/360039197611-FANTOM-6-FANTOM-7-FANTOM-8-Maximum-Polyphony

https://support.roland.com/hc/en-us/articles/4570102526491-FANTOM-06-FANTOM-07-FANTOM-08-Maximum-polyphony

https://rolandcorp.com.au/blog/fantom-fantom-0-comparison-chart

 

20 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

if they had said they were bringing ACB to the Fantom family (as opposed to the Fantom), that would still be ambiguous, as bringing it to the family could mean either Fantom+Fantom0 OR a new Fantom. At any rate, they said bringing it to the Fantom, which to me pretty clearly means the currently shipping product called Fantom

 

If they said "bringing Analog Circuit Behavior (ACB) to the FANTOM", with the definite article, that would be a reference to the existing Fantom series. But they actually said "to FANTOM", with a zero article - whether that really means something is open to interpretation.

 

20 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

it would be pretty pointless if getting this feature meant having to buy a whole new keyboard. And I think that if teasing a whole new Fantom model was their intent, doing it around ACB would be pretty lame.

It doesn't make as much sense to tell existing Fantom users, "hey' we're about to make your board obsolete!"

 

By this logic, Roland should never release new flagship workstations because this would make existing Fantoms obsolete.  

 

20 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

It wouldn't make sense to announce something a year or more before it would be ready to ship.

 

Unless you're trying to make an intentionally vague statement to prevent your users from switching over to competition on a wave of excitement for a new product.

[AnotherScott]

 

18 minutes ago, DmitryKo said:

 

20 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

Maybe because the new ACB model will only run on the Fantom, and not the Fantom-0?

 

I thought Fantom-0 uses the same number of BMC chips... does it? I couldn't find whether BMC chips were ever employed for ACB (Analog Circuit Behavior) emulation in other products.

 

At least Fantom-0 has the same maximum polyphony count, though it doesn't support V-Piano and n/zyme engines or stereo analog filter.

 

Right, it doesn't support V-Piano or n/zyme. So whether it has the same number of chips or not is irrelevant. For any reason they'd like, Roland can make a feature available for one board and not the other. So again, it is possible that "the new ACB model will only run on the Fantom, and not the Fantom-0" and any discussion of whether or not it has the same BMC chips is besides the point.

 

18 minutes ago, DmitryKo said:

By this logic, Roland should never release new flagship workstations because this would make existing Fantoms obsolete.  

 

No, of course models eventually become obsolete (as in superseded by newer models). But you're not likely to enthusiastically target the initial tease-announcement of the new product specifically at the users of the product that is about to become obsolete, especially when that product was a relatively recent, high-priced model that was sold, in part, on its promise of future upgradability (that is, implying it would not be obsolete for a good while).

[Keyboardplayer]

For a comparison here is Yamaha's workstation timeline regarding the Motif & MOX/F series. You can see that Yamaha released new hardware versions of these two models in a two to four-year time frame.

 

Motif & MOX/F series

Motif 6/7/8 (2001)
Motif-Rack (2002)
Motif ES 6/7/8 (2003) - Doubled the polyphony (128) vs. the original Motif (64).
Motif-Rack ES (2004)
Motif XS 6/7/8 (2007)
Motif-Rack XS (2008)
Motif XF (2010)
MOX6 / MOX8 (2011) - with the sound engine and sample-ROM from Motif XS, half polyphony, no sampler
MOXF6 / MOXF8 (2013) - sound engine and sample-ROM from Motif XF, optional sample-flash-ROM

 

The Roland Fantom has been on the market four years now so a new hardware version of the Fantom might be in the cards. Roland has been struggling financially over the last 10 years or so. Here are their keyboard sales so far in 2023. [Keyboards] Net sales in 2nd Quarter 2023: ¥11,849 million (down 13.9% year on year). "Sales of electronic pianos were affected overall by dealer inventory adjustments and softening demand for low-end products in particular, although new product lines launched in the current period contributed to the performance (positively)." If there is a new Fantom I hope Roland beefed up the polyphony because the current Fantom has a major issue of note drop-off under certain load conditions. As we know Yamaha bumped up the polyphony on the Montage M to 400 notes total. That said, in order to access all 400 notes in a performance you would need to use voices (parts) from all three sound engines plus the AWM2 User section. It would take quite a bit of finagling to achieve that scenario and it would be inconvenient, to say the least. That's why the first keyboard manufacturer to release a keyboard with 512-note polyphony which can be accessed across the entire range of the keyboard (so you don't have to pick and choose various sound engines to access all the polyphony available, will be a huge leap forward in helping to eliminate the note drop-off saga. 🎹

[AnotherScott]

5 hours ago, Keyboardplayer said:

For a comparison here is Yamaha's workstation timeline regarding the Motif & MOX/F series. You can see that Yamaha released new hardware versions of these two models in a two to four-year time frame.

 

Motif & MOX/F series

Motif 6/7/8 (2001)
Motif-Rack (2002)
Motif ES 6/7/8 (2003) - Doubled the polyphony (128) vs. the original Motif (64).
Motif-Rack ES (2004)
Motif XS 6/7/8 (2007)
Motif-Rack XS (2008)
Motif XF (2010)
MOX6 / MOX8 (2011) - with the sound engine and sample-ROM from Motif XS, half polyphony, no sampler
MOXF6 / MOXF8 (2013) - sound engine and sample-ROM from Motif XF, optional sample-flash-ROM

 

The next generation flagship board after the Motif XF (2010) was the Montage (2016). (MOX and MOXF did not replace any Motifs, they were lower end derivative models, like the Fantom-0 is to the Fantom.) So that model has a 6 year life as king of the hill. Then the Montage M replaces the Montage in 2023, so the Montage had a 7 year life. So it's been 16 years since Yamaha had a flagship synth that didn't hold that position for at least 6 years.

 

Roland and Yamaha both used to update their models (esp. these flagships) more frequently, and I already posted some reasons why I think that is (though the financial issues don't apply to Yamaha).

[RABid]

I do remember a Roland rep saying the Fantom has twice the processing power of the Fantom 0. That is what enables seamless changing of full scenes, along with extras like nzyme.

[AnotherScott]

It's been released.... as I expected, it's a software upgrade for the current Fantom (but not Fantom-0). Not a freebie, though, a paid upgrade.

 

https://www.roland.com/global/products/rc_fantom_ex_upgrade/

 

2 ACB synth emulations... Jupiter 8 and SH-101

2 new pianos... German V-Piano, and a new SuperNATURAL piano

JD-800 model expansion

n/zyme model expansion (presumably the same as it's been)

new reverbs

Cubase and PreSonus Studio One DAW integration

 

 

[jerrythek]

It’ll be $199. 

[AnotherScott]

Hopefully they will be making an allowance for those who already paid $149 just for n/zyme. If it were me, I'd probably offer it for $50 if you bought n/zyme in, say, the last 60 days, and $99 if you bought it prior to that, or something like that.

[David Emm]

After digesting a few demos for the upgrade, I'm much impressed. I'm past my workstation days, but if I was in the market, I'd be leaning this way. The lack of Poly AT is a minor issue for me; I'd be happy with just release velocity for many things. If Roland adds a firmware upgrade that makes it controllable by an external PAT controller, I'd call it a viable compromise.

 

My old Korg was the brain for my other gear and the Fantom is far more advanced. I'd still have to see a DAW as the smartest option for a recorder, but the PAT issue aside, what's it really lacking? If you dropped $3K-4K on a flagship, a $200 upgrade that makes it about 20% juicier is a piffle. Its hard not to love having a JD-800 with a couple of button clicks.

[Stokely]

This would still be a strong contender for me if I added a workstation to my live rig (not for sequencing and recording).  It covers all the bases even if the organ isn't top of the line and sounded good to me when I tried out the little version.  I've heard my buddy using the big monster weighted one live multiple times and it sounded awesome.  That damn thing is just too big and heavy for me....

Definitely some nostalgia points for having (basically) my old JX-10 inside as well  

[GovernorSilver]

2 hours ago, David Emm said:

After digesting a few demos for the upgrade, I'm much impressed. I'm past my workstation days, but if I was in the market, I'd be leaning this way. The lack of Poly AT is a minor issue for me; I'd be happy with just release velocity for many things. If Roland adds a firmware upgrade that makes it controllable by an external PAT controller, I'd call it a viable compromise.

 

No release velocity in the Fantom keyboards.  Just double-checked to make sure.

 

The Fantom EX firmware does not add it, nor will it add poly AT.

[ProfD]

I've listened to demos with the *ahem* upgraded tech, features and sounds.  I still don't hear anything *new*. YMMV. 😎

[jerrythek]

19 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

Hopefully they will be making an allowance for those who already paid $149 just for n/zyme. If it were me, I'd probably offer it for $50 if you bought n/zyme in, say, the last 60 days, and $99 if you bought it prior to that, or something like that.

They just announced:

From the mothership 🛸 to N/Zyme customers. 

"For Roland FANTOM owners who have purchased the n/zyme Model Expansion and are planning to purchase the FANTOM EX Upgrade, please wait until you receive an email from Roland Cloud. A special discount offer will be in your inbox very soon. Thank you!"

[RABid]

Now the question is, does the ACB version of the Jupiter 8 sound so much better than the ZenCore Jupiter 8 that it is worth triple the power requirement plus the limit of 8 notes and only one instance, limited to channel 1. I've got a System 8 and a Jupiter X. I don't hear enough difference to pay that price.

[AnotherScott]

I'd say if you've already compared the System 8 and Jupiter X emulations of the Jupiter 8, then you've already got your answer. 🙂

[ElmerJFudd]

2 hours ago, RABid said:

Now the question is, does the ACB version of the Jupiter 8 sound so much better than the ZenCore Jupiter 8 that it is worth triple the power requirement plus the limit of 8 notes and only one instance, limited to channel 1. I've got a System 8 and a Jupiter X. I don't hear enough difference to pay that price.

Roland clearly felt close enough with high poly at this time it’s preferable. But, since ACB exists and some of their fans prefer it - there it is for $199 in the EX expansion. Along with a few new SN pianos and additional fx and features. 
 

It would be nice if other manufacturers also listened to their customers and offered firmware updates with a fee which would both eliminate the need to replace perfectly good hardware and add value and longevity to a current model. 
 

https://www.roland.com/au/products/rc_fantom_ex_upgrade/

 

I wonder how far out they are from having JP-8000 and VSynth in the Roland cloud. 

[Mighty Motif Max]

As a happy owner of a Fantom 7, this is a great upgrade that I'll be purchasing soon. I would still like some better wurli's, rhodes, and guitars, and better polyphony implementation, but the Fantom is certainly closer to my ideal all-in-one keyboard now (where I don't need an 88), so long as super organic pianos aren't a requirement. For now my MODX7 is my do-it-all keyboard, but the Fantom is getting closer sound-wise now. I think it's nice that now with the Montage M7 we now have two really good <40lb 76-key options with good actions that can cover pretty much all bases. The Fantom is still better with playing all 16 parts from the internal keybed.

[TJ Cornish]

I agree that this is a good update from Roland, and it’s priced very reasonably, especially since they have announced that people who purchased NZyme previously will get a discount on the new EX model (via an email offer to NZyme owners). I’m excited for the new German grand. Others have commented on disappointment on not fixing some “quality of life” things on the board and I sure hope they keep working on some things (lack of seamless switching of VPiano, LFO sync problems, lack of linear sequencer, etc.), but Roland deserves credit for a lot of work for this upgrade.

 

I spent another 45 minutes on the Montage M at Guitar Center a couple days ago trying to get my head around it vs. the Fantom. There is no doubt that it can do things the Fantom can’t, but it is significantly harder to use than the Fantom. Evaluating the action was awkward as for some odd reason GC had the stand set so it was 6” too high to play at a sitting level, but too low to stand at. I’ll put a longer version of my thoughts in the Montage M thread, but I did find it interesting that with all of the hand wringing about the Fantom’s “polyphony problems” (not an issue in my experience), the Montage M has this too if you try to add any parts to an organ performance - the way the “9-bars” organ is built is such that every key takes 9 notes of polyphony, so you can play only 14 notes before stealing happens just with the organ engine - adding even a second layer of AWM2 cuts that down to an unusable number.

[AnotherScott]

2 hours ago, TJ Cornish said:

I did find it interesting that with all of the hand wringing about the Fantom’s “polyphony problems” (not an issue in my experience), the Montage M has this too if you try to add any parts to an organ performance - the way the “9-bars” organ is built is such that every key takes 9 notes of polyphony, so you can play only 14 notes before stealing happens just with the organ engine - adding even a second layer of AWM2 cuts that down to an unusable number.

Each key takes even more than 9 notes of polyphony, if you consider leakage and click, which are additional elements. But really, Yamaha never claimed to have an "organ engine", it's just another way to use its ability to stack sampled elements... and the fact that it has that polyphony issue is why they offer so many other organ patches, that combine multiple drawbar sounds within a single element. You lose flexibility of per-drawbar adjustment, but you gain polyphony. If per-drawbar adjustment is really key for you, you need a board that has a proper organ engine.

 

ETA: btw, this is nothing new to the Montage M. The Montage/MODX is the same here. The organ improvements to the M are the better Leslie effect and the ability to reverse the directions of the sliders.

 

But at least Yamaha polyphony is more understandable/predictable. Every sampled element (mono or stereo) uses up one instance, and FM has its own polyphony. You can see what's using polyphony and adjust patches accordingly if need be. Fantom is more complicated/unpredictable. Apart from the V-PIano (which, like Yamaha's FM, has its own dedicated polyphony), everything is taking from the same pool, in a non-transparent manner, i.e. what is the polyphony of a SuperNATURAL Acoustic sound, and how many units of polyphony does each key of that sound take away from the available polyphony for other (non V-PIano) sounds? 

[David Emm]

19 hours ago, ElmerJFudd said:

I wonder how far out they are from having JP-8000 and VSynth in the Roland cloud. 

 

I don't expect to see the V-Synth appear in software form. I doubt many would enjoy playing the Time Trip touchpad with a mouse. It would also seem strange for Roland to let you drop in your own samples through the Cloud. Its not impossible, I'm sure, but it feels unlikely. That's a lot of the V's 'oscillator food.' Its not a straight-ahead VA-type design by a mile. It doesn't quite fit their business model like a JP-8 or D-50.

 

IMO, its unique form & muscle make it either a standout live performance synth or a sound design champ. Its emphatically not a ROMpler. The enhanced GT model is the one Jesus plays in His jam band. It really puts the "size" in "synthesizer."

[ElmerJFudd]

10 minutes ago, David Emm said:

 

I don't expect to see the V-Synth appear in software form. I doubt many would enjoy playing the Time Trip touchpad with a mouse. It would also seem strange for Roland to let you drop in your own samples through the Cloud. Its not impossible, I'm sure, but it feels unlikely. That's a lot of the V's 'oscillator food.' Its not a straight-ahead VA-type design by a mile. It doesn't quite fit their business model like a JP-8 or D-50.

 

IMO, its unique form & muscle make it either a standout live performance synth or a sound design champ. Its emphatically not a ROMpler. The enhanced GT model is the one Jesus plays in His jam band. It really puts the "size" in "synthesizer."

I was thinking if they did do VSynth in software it would probably use a similar GUI to what they developed for the XT.  

[Haem]

As background, I play a Roland Fao8 in a covers band, mainly 60s & 70s. material. I’ve found the FA very user friendly and not being a technical wizard I’ve still managed to create some good studio sets making great use of splitting/layering & keyboard switch facility etc. I’ve never liked the acoustic piano sounds much on the FA. I would love to hear from people who have changed from the FA to a Fantom 08 and whether they think the change has been worthwhile. Is the piano sound significantly better? Also  do you  think Roland will improve Fantom 08 with an update as it has the Fantom? One other thing, anyone know why the Roland Clan website is down? Thanks 

[AnotherScott]

I believe the pianos are the same, except the SuperNATURAL pianos on the FA actually have resonance features that the Fantom-0 version lacks. Personally, I think Fantom-0 works best as an 06 or 07 above some other keyboard you'd use for pianos/EPs.

[stoken6]

On 11/9/2023 at 10:44 PM, David Emm said:

The enhanced GT model is the one Jesus plays in His jam band

Jesus definitely has a jam band. But I always pictured him as the drummer...

 

Cheers, Mike

[Mighty Motif Max]

Nice video explaining some new system features and changes that are easily overlooked with the upgrade promotional highlights. 
 

 

[Fleer]

I’m seeing some pretty low prices for a new Fantom 8 in Europe, at les than 3000 euros. Could there be an updated version at Namm?

Just now, Fleer said:

I’m seeing some pretty low prices for a new Fantom 8 in Europe, at less than 3000 euros. Could there be an updated version at Namm?

 

[zephonic]

So if I buy a new Fantom today, is it automatically an EX, or is it a cost upgrade?