Recommend me a Windows VST Host for live gigs

[Mighty Motif Max]

Hey all,

 

I thought about posting this one in the drum forum except that there's very little activity there and I think that the needs I have are the same across any type of live usage of VST hosts and I know we have a number of folks rocking those here! So please bear with me...

 

I have a Surface Pro 8 with an i7 and 16gb RAM running Windows 11 sitting around that I am no longer using. Besides keys/accordion I've recently began subbing on drums with a number of groups, and something that I would like to experiment with is using drum software live instead of the internal sounds in my Roland TD-17KVX kit - not that they're bad at all, but some of my bandmates have recently expressed interest in getting closer to an acoustic drum experience without the volume (and without shelling out the big bucks for low-volume hybrid cymbals, etc). My idea is to trigger the software from my electric kit and, in addition to sending channels to the board, send a few channels of overheads out to a monitor on stage for stage fill for the rest of the band (the primary group I'm playing with has a rather unusual monitoring setup and what they want is more of a room-filling sound without the volume of a full acoustic kit - I believe it's the cymbals they miss).

 

I would like to use Addictive Drums 2 with an outboard audio interface (a Focusrite Scarlett 18i20) and have up to 8 channels available for outputs. I'm very familiar with AD2 but the standalone version doesn't allow advanced audio routing to different outputs - it must be loaded into a DAW or similar for that to happen. I'm very much a newbie to audio on Windows, as I have invested pretty heavily in the macOS side of things for many years now. So what I'm looking for is a rock-solid VST host that lets me route audio to multiple outputs and any tips on optimizing the Surface Pro for live use. I'm aware of some of the contenders in the VST host world like Cantabile, GigPerformer, Bidule, Camelot Pro, Steinberg VST Live, etc, but have not used any of them previously. I have MainStage on my Mac but have only sparingly experimented with it.

 

My needs are as follows:

- Free routing to multiple audio outputs/multi-channel support

- Ability to save patches for quick loading between songs, in a set-list format (not sure if preloading samples is a thing in this world or not but that would be cool)

- Minimal software-induced latency (independent from drivers and such)

- Rock-solid stability - I don't want things crashing when I'm holding down the rhythm section.

- Supports VST2 and VST3

- Plays nicely with Windows 11

- Ability to run a click track/metronome

- Cross-platform would be a plus, but is not a requirement

 

At the moment I am leaning towards Steinberg VST Live, as Cubase has been my primary DAW for many years and I'm pretty comfortable with their way of doing things. Wondering what the current recommendations are, especially with Windows 11. Any tips on optimizing the Windows system for audio are also much appreciated! I'm somewhat used to a plug-and-play routine like macOS allows (most of the time anyways). I'd like to get this system working by a week from today (Thursday) to test it out at a low-pressure gig next week if possible!

 

Thanks all!

 

Edit: I could see also using this system one day for a keys rig but that's quite a ways off, if ever.

[zephonic]

I use Gig Performer on all away gigs, and it’s been great. It does everything you’ve outlined and more.

 

The devs are on their forum daily, so it’s easy to connect to them with questions etc.

 

[johnchop]

GigPerformer does everything you need and is more mature than VSTLive. 
 

The GUI components are functional, if not the prettiest, but will work well with the touch screen on the surface (I use a touchscreen monitor and Windows 11).

 

Demo available so kick the tires!
 

Deskew and the Cantabile dev have guides to audio optimization on Windows (sorry… hyperlinks not handy but they are searchable).

 

Generally: turn of wifi and antivirus, optimize for background processes, remove unnecessary background software, disable unneeded services.

 

Hope this gets you started!

 

-John

[wd8dky]

+100 Gigperformer! 

[Jose EB5AGV]

I am just starting this path, but I am really impressed by Gig Performer 4.7

 

I am using a relatively low specs laptop (Ryzen 5 3500U/16GB/1 TB SSD) and it works nicely even with demanding VSTs, like VSL pianos. The overload of the application is very low, both on memory and on CPU.

 

I am building a live rig around it and hope to use it soon.

[miden]

Gig Performer = Expensive and quite convoluted.

 

Cantabile cheaper (albeit a yearly sub for about $90, but only if you want newer features - bug fixes are always free) much simpler to use.

 

Plus it has a totally free version.

https://www.cantabilesoftware.com/

 

[davinwv]

I haven't played a hardware keyboard on a live gig since October 2008, and except for a brief time early on using Brainspawn Forte, I have been using Cantabile the entire time with zero issues. I recently picked up VST Live Elements on sale, and I plan to take it for a spin soon.

[Ibarch]

I use VST Live. Whilst the new kid on the block I have found it very stable. It is quick and intuitive to learn, has all the features you listed and is a fraction of the price of gig performer. 

 

I'm using songs with a mixture of Omnisphere, Keyscape and Zenology sounds. It preloads everything and can switch instantly between songs, with full sound remain - existing sounds don't cut out the moment you switch songs or parts. It has some powerful midi mapping too. 

 

I use it with a Surface Pro 7 running Windows 11. The main things you need to ensure are that

- power save is disabled on your usb hub and devices, Use device manager to find the setting on each device property page

- remove all unnecessary programs from start up

- put on flight mode when performing to stop any programs syncing 

- don't allow anti virus programs to scan when idle. 

[Ibarch]

I like the set list feature on VST Live too. You can add all your songs to a project, then create multiple set lists from them with any subset and order. 

 

When the project preloads, it only preloads the songs in the active setlist, not the full project. 

[mcgoo]

12 hours ago, miden said:

Gig Performer = Expensive and quite convoluted.

 

I 100% disagree with that statement. No disrespect intended, I'm just scratching my head trying to figure out how you came to that conclusion. 

 

For me, Gig Performer's stability, efficiency, flexibility, logical layout and user friendliness make its value many times higher than its price. 

[miden]

44 minutes ago, mcgoo said:

 

I 100% disagree with that statement. No disrespect intended, I'm just scratching my head trying to figure out how you came to that conclusion. 

 

For me, Gig Performer's stability, efficiency, flexibility, logical layout and user friendliness make its value many times higher than its price. 

 

 

scratch away.

[Mighty Motif Max]

Thanks all for your input so far! Just went through the GigPerformer folks' Windows audio optimization guide - wow, very much the opposite of plug and play lol.

 

Not a fan of Cantabile's interface at all - it kind of reminds me of KeyStage, which I am fine with on an iOS platform but I don't care for as much when scaled up; GigPerformer's modular setup looks very flexible but also super convoluted (I've used Kushview Element in the past on macOS and while a node-based layout doesn't scare me, it's not my preference). However I think I will give the trial versions of both GigPerformer and VST Live a go and see what I like.

[Jose EB5AGV]

8 hours ago, Mighty Motif Max said:

Thanks all for your input so far! Just went through the GigPerformer folks' Windows audio optimization guide - wow, very much the opposite of plug and play lol.

 

Not a fan of Cantabile's interface at all - it kind of reminds me of KeyStage, which I am fine with on an iOS platform but I don't care for as much when scaled up; GigPerformer's modular setup looks very flexible but also super convoluted (I've used Kushview Element in the past on macOS and while a node-based layout doesn't scare me, it's not my preference). However I think I will give the trial versions of both GigPerformer and VST Live a go and see what I like.

 

You made me think 🤔

 

I will also give VST Live a try, as my Gig Performer (GP) trial has expired and I have not yet bought it. Now I have the GP reference, so the VST Live trial will be more focused.

 

Please, keep us informed of your experience with both systems 👍🏻

[CHarrell]

No love for Camelot?

[mcgoo]

14 hours ago, Mighty Motif Max said:

... Just went through the GigPerformer folks' Windows audio optimization guide - wow, very much the opposite of plug and play lol..

 

Yeah, it's long, but can be well worth the effort. I think how deep you get into the tweaks can be determined by how complex your setups are and how current and decked of your system is. Fast cpu, lots of Ram & SSDs? You may not need to tweak so much. 5+ yr old laptop? Get it off the interwebz and cripple it for anything but GP and the VSTi's it will host. YMMV. 

[AnotherScott]

15 hours ago, Mighty Motif Max said:

Thanks all for your input so far! Just went through the GigPerformer folks' Windows audio optimization guide - wow, very much the opposite of plug and play lol.

 

Yeah... and it's not GP-specific, it's just Windows. That's the pro-Mac argument, there's just a lot less of that stuff to worry about (even when running the exact same software, i.e. GP is cross-platform). And in fairness, I'm sure there are lots of cases where people are perfectly satisfied with their Windows setup even without having gone through half of those things. But there are also people who seem to have issues and are chasing down every way to fix it, and that's a great guide to really maximize what the system is capable of. Even if you ended up going with something other than GP, that would be the stuff to look at... like I said, we're not talking about any kind of GP-specific issue here.

[Mighty Motif Max]

Sorry if I wasn’t clear, I meant that I went through the guide and changed as many of the settings as were applicable (ie the Surface Pro 8 doesn’t have some of the BIOS options that are listed). I meant that Windows isn’t exactly plug and play, not that GigPerformer wasn’t!
 

I got the Cantabile, GigPerformer, and VST Live trials installed last night after doing all the tech modifications. I’ve set up a VST Live song with a variety of go-to drum kits mapped out to various outputs, so I plan on trying that out on Thursday. Routing wasn’t super intuitive at first since AD2 has multiple outs within the plugin itself and VST Live has the destination assignment settings in a different place than I expected, but once I figured it out it was just a few clicks.

[MPN21]

On 10/13/2023 at 9:24 PM, Mighty Motif Max said:

Thanks all for your input so far! Just went through the GigPerformer folks' Windows audio optimization guide - wow, very much the opposite of plug and play lol.

 

Not a fan of Cantabile's interface at all - it kind of reminds me of KeyStage, which I am fine with on an iOS platform but I don't care for as much when scaled up; GigPerformer's modular setup looks very flexible but also super convoluted (I've used Kushview Element in the past on macOS and while a node-based layout doesn't scare me, it's not my preference). However I think I will give the trial versions of both GigPerformer and VST Live a go and see what I like.

I was using  Forte 4, Contabile, and a few other VST hosts when I stumbled upon Gig Performer ver 1.  GP was so intuitive, easy, and flexible that I uninstalled all other VST hosts except for a free vst host called VSTHOST  only to check out free plugins.   

 

Out of curiosity, I just installed VST Live.   Just like many other hosts, the GUI gives me headaches, menus/fonts are much smaller than GP, and mostly importantly it can only activate Asio4All driver in my Windows 11 Pro at 512 buffer, still crackles a lot while GP exposes Windows Audio at 144 buffer.   Windows Audio is also multi-client meaning that while playing plugins, I can listen to Youtube and so forth. Asio4All is not multi-client.  By the way, my PC is a $300 mini pc with a Celeron chip!  No audio optimization done with all kinds of junk running in the background including  Phone Link and WIFI midi going everywhere.   I was shocked that GP could run Virtuoso Ensembles by Kirk Hunter very well.  It's the most CPU intensive plugin that I have.    Even one of my old MBPs has a hard time running it. 

 

 

[Ibarch]

VST Live only supports ASIO, not Windows Audio. The issue with buffer size and crackling lies with the generic ASIO4All drivers. Using a better ASIO driver specific for an audio interface will enable similar/better performance than Gig Performer running on Windows Audio. 

 

VST Live by itself is very lightweight and efficient. It is a much leaner VST Host than DAWs like Ableton and Cubase. It is using some cross platform framework by the look of things, hence the different sized and non standard windows and buttons. 

[Jose EB5AGV]

I am a Cubase 12 Pro user, if at a basic level (have just gone through some of my band multitrack recordings, applied effects and mixing / mastering them with my limited knowledge 😆)

 

I had never seen anything about Gig Performer until a couple weeks ago. I installed the trial version and in a couple hours had a mini-rig set up on my laptop. That included the Windows optimization, which I already knew at about 75%, but learned some new small details from that document you mentioned.

 

I really wonder what will happen when I install VST Live. Would it be that fast, as I guess it has some resemblance to Cubase?

 

I will know soon!

[zephonic]

I’m not sure what people find ‘convoluted’ about GP, its ease of use is what attracted me to it in the first place, most things were self-explanatory. I’m an undisciplined and lazy twat, things have to come naturally to me or I don’t do it.
 

 

Steinberg had another live host application about ten or fifteen years ago, Vstack, but it was discontinued. https://www.kvraudio.com/product/v-stack-by-steinberg

[zephonic]

19 hours ago, CHarrell said:

No love for Camelot?

I downloaded the demo a few years back, but gave up on it

[johnchop]

Is it fair to say VSTLive is more oriented to playing to tracks/cues? I realize you can ignore all of those features, of course.

 

I vaguely recall from the demo that controller mapping was comparably limited. 

GP works more or less like my brain works, in that it presents a virtual “rig” with abstracted controllers on top. It’s like choosing one DAW over another; some just map more readily to our preferences and perspective. 

 

 

[Ibarch]

No I don't think that is fair. Whilst it can support cueing backing tracks, samples etc it does a lot more too.

 

VST Live is focused around songs rather than controllers. Songs are what you make of them. They are equally well featured for setting up patches from multiple VSTs as layer and controlling outboard gear with its stacks, buses and mixers as to adding backing tracks, running lights over dmx and syncing lyrics and click tracks for band members via a phone app. 

 

Starting with a song, you  create layers, select  instruments and then do any configuration that is needed. It is pretty similar to setting up instrument tracks in a DAW. Songs can have multiple parts too, with their own discrete layers. 

 

Each layer has its own options for setting transpose, octaves, velocity curves, midi note volume and so on. Setting split points  between layers by key range or adding velocity ranges per layer is straightforward. Once you have setup a particular instrument on a layer, it is easy to share this with other songs. 

 

I'm not aware of many limitations around controller mapping although it doesn't do  mapping within VSTs unless they expose macro controls if I recall correctly. It didn't seem any more limited than Cubase in this regard. 

 

In some ways, I find the controller mappings more powerful than using my Fantom. It can intercept midi cc on any  value and either map it to another or cancel it for example. I use this to map the cc hold message from my pedal to sostenuto on a pad layer. I can therefore control Sostenuto on the pad whilst using the normal sustain on a piano layer, from a single pedal. I can't do that on the Fantom. 

 

Setting up song patches and managing my set lists is what I use it for. I don't touch any of the cueing tracks or fancy lights stuff. It enables me to replicate my fantom scenes on my laptop via Zenology and take a super lightweight casio CT-S500 to practices, smaller gigs and open mics. 

 

I've not used gig performer, so can't comment on how it does things or how it compares. The price tag put me off along with the apparent lack of a touch friendly interface - essential for when I'm playing live. VST Live may have a few rough edges but I've found it perfect for my needs and rock solid in live situations once songs have been fully configured. 

 

 

 

[D. Gauss]

If rock solid, super low CPU overhead, runs on anything (mac, win, linux), VST hosting is important, then give Reaper a shot. Whilst not specifically geared for live "setlists" and such, once you wrap your head around it, there's a whole world of things it can do, as it is a full fledged DAW.  i.e. Superior Drummer 3 in Reaper is a breeze.  Free to try it (trail is not crippled in any way, no time limited) and 60 bucks to buy it.  

[Ibarch]

There is a bit more to performing live than solid VST hosting - unless you only plan to play a single instrument / track and not touch anything. 

 

Having real time control of what you are doing is pretty essential. Being able to switch to different songs is also quite useful.  DAWs for the most part don't do that well. Yes, you can probably find a way to get by and hacks to make stuff work but that doesn't make for a great experience. 

 

I would recommend trialling any dedicated live performance software in preference to any DAW. Most offer equal, if not better low impact, rock solid VST hosting than DAWs, have a range of features to support live use and are well battle tested. 

 

Just the right tool for the right job. Not everything is a nail just cause you have a hammer. 

 

 

[CHarrell]

21 hours ago, Ibarch said:

I've not used gig performer, so can't comment on how it does things or how it compares. The price tag put me off along with the apparent lack of a touch friendly interface - essential for when I'm playing live. VST Live may have a few rough edges but I've found it perfect for my needs and rock solid in live situations once songs have been fully configured. 

 

This is something that's actually crucial for me. VST Live has a touch friendly interface?

[Ibarch]

Yes. Compared to most Windows applications, it is pretty well optimised for touch. 

 

As a VST host, it doesn't control the UI of plugins but all it's own screens are designed to work fully with touch or mouse control. It's perfectly serviceable for scrolling through set lists, selecting songs, activating  parts and  switching elements on and off. 

[Mighty Motif Max]

Had the gig tonight. To VST Live's credit, it wasn't the source of any issues - no crashes, ran smoothly enough. Note that it needs to be restarted to see any changes made in one instance of a plugin (like a custom midi map preset) if you're using different instances in the project - even if it's a global setting, it needs to register that that preset has been created before it will populate to other instances).

 

However I had significant issues with noise in the signal that is present despite using balanced TRS cables to DI boxes, powering all from one power strip (that supposedly had RFI filtering), and didn't change whether the Surface Pro was running on battery or power. I'm thinking it's some sort of a ground loop issue, but it is interesting that it only occurred once a program that used the Focusrite 18i20 interface was opened, like Halion Sonic or VST Live. As soon as those programs were closed, it would go away. I troubleshooted cables and power sources after the gig but have not found a solution thus far. A nice tinnitus-like whine with what sounds like fax machine noises in the background - it gets louder with higher sample rates as well. Loud enough to compete with the drums themselves sadly. The noise is present even with the interface volume set to zero and outputs muted.

 

Any thoughts? I didn't expect to have those issues given that I'm already doing some of the preventative measures with balanced lines and such.

 

 

 

[zephonic]

How about going from the headphone output of the Surface? I do it all the time with my MBP.