Leaked - new Korg controller with poly AT, MPE. MIDI 2.0 and audio interface

[Stokely]

Obviously not quite the same thing, but one option for that would be using an ipad.  I personally don't really *want* to use one live, but I did experiment with having Midiflow send those very messages (and do some routing between two keyboards and other ipad apps) by (sort of) a button press....you'd select a patch.  You'd probably be able to use a single button from a controller to map to all that within Midiflow.

[JKS111]

BTILC paraphrase - now THATS appreciated!

[Reezekeys]

18 minutes ago, pjd said:

My hot button issue -- sending a full Bank Select MSB, LSB and Program Change message sequence in a single button press.

 

My Roland A800, introduced in 2009 (and still the current model!), does this:

 

 

40 minutes ago, Paul Woodward said:

The A800 does poly AT on the pads, might have to play around with that... 

 

This is not exactly a substitute for a keybed with PAT! You can assign a pad to play a note - that's one note - then add PAT to it by pressing down on the pad. In my quick testing I found the pad's response to pressure poor (values jumping and not that linear with increasing pressure), but that might just be my unit. Also, there are sensitivity and curve settings I didn't mess with; maybe you'll have better luck. I've never needed or wished for PAT, but perhaps some players will make use of this. And again, this is a keyboard that's been around almost 15 years – I'm surprised it hasn't been replaced. Either Roland is happy with sales or they don't see the small controller market as worth their r&d investment. Paul, I wish I could find the deal like you just got – I could use a source for parts!

 

Regarding this new Korg, I agree that not having endless encoders might be a serious negative for those that like to twiddle while they play - but you have to start somewhere!

[Paul Woodward]

4 hours ago, felis said:

 

 

@Reezekeys, although it all seems too good to be true, the guy is dropping it off on person tomorrow with official PSU and that new case. I didn't do any dealing, just made a lowish offer on eBay and he came back with a counter including the case. For £90 all in delivered would have been rude to say no.

If I decide to part with it, or becomes faulty, you can have first dibs on parts 👍

[Dr Mike Metlay]

1 hour ago, Paul Woodward said:

The A800 does poly AT on the pads, might have to play around with that... 

 

It’s fun. The PCR-300 did it, and I think the four pads on the Samson Graphite 49 do too. 

[Dr Mike Metlay]

7 hours ago, Stokely said:

I'm debating getting a Hydrasynth explorer to go on my desktop as a quick-and-easy controller...and maybe as something to add to my currently-one-keyboard rig.  Not sure those small keys with their short throw would give PAT justice.

They do. I was actually very surprised at that. I already owned the four octave model, and I added the explorer so that I would have the option of taking the sounds with me. I have been incredibly pleased with that little box. The user interface is only slightly more cramped than that of the big one, which is why I’m probably going to keep it for doing sound design, as well as fancier performance stuff. But the Explorer PolyAT works just fine for me.

 

I just wish the Explorer would fit into a rollaboard suitcase. I think it’s just an inch or two too long.

[AnotherScott]

3 hours ago, Dr Mike Metlay said:

5 hours ago, Paul Woodward said:

The A800 does poly AT on the pads, might have to play around with that... 

It’s fun. The PCR-300 did it, and I think the four pads on the Samson Graphite 49 do too. 

 

Yes... since each pad has its own sensor, any board that has pads that do aftertouch at all will do it independently for each pad (i.e. polyphonically).

[ElmerJFudd]

 

[Paul Woodward]

That works nicely. Will add Velcro dots to keep it all in place... 

[Docbop]

 

[Keyboardplayer]

Korg could have hit a home run with the Keystage if they had given it nine sliders. The same could be said regarding the NI Kontrol S61 Mk3 controller keyboard. Musicians expect more for their money, although it seems many keyboard manufacturers keep doling stuff out in a carrot stick approach, i.e. with just enough features to leave many musicians wanting and expecting more. Korg and NI could have raised the price a couple of hundred bucks and gave them sliders, and thereby giving musicians the necessary tools they need and/or demand that their skills and jobs rightly deserve. So instead of selling tens or even hundreds of thousands of Keystages and/or Kontrol S61 Mk3 controllers, Korg and NI are okay selling far less of them to far fewer musicians? Now you know why Korg and so many other music gear companies are tightening their belts and in some cases in dire financial straits. Moog included. Give musicians more of what they want and need and in many cases demand, and the companies/corporations could eventually see their lack of fortune(s) reversed, in my opinion. The Yamaha DX7 was the best-selling synth on record because #1 it was affordable, #2 it provided consumers the feature set they wanted and/or required, and #3 it sounded fantastic with its FM synthesis based sounds. Controller keyboards are a different subset, but the standard(s) still apply, sans onboard sounds, which most controllers don't include. 

[Docbop]

2 hours ago, Keyboardplayer said:

Korg could have hit a home run with the Keystage if they had given it nine sliders. The same could be said regarding the NI Kontrol S61 Mk3 controller keyboard. Musicians expect more for their money, although it seems many keyboard manufacturers keep doling stuff out in a carrot stick approach, i.e. with just enough features to leave many musicians wanting and expecting more.

 

I think a lot of companies are following Apples approach to never give you everything in one device so you need another device.   

[jarrell]

On 12/1/2023 at 9:22 AM, Keyboardplayer said:

The Yamaha DX7 was the best-selling synth on record because #1 it was affordable

When the DX7 appeared in 1983, it listed for $1995, which is $6,162.69 in today's dollars. It was a game changer, but not sure it was in affordability.

[AnotherScott]

6 minutes ago, jarrell said:

When the DX7 appeared in 1983, it listed for $1995, which is $6,162.69 in today's dollars. It was a game changer, but not sure it was in affordability.

 

It was reasonably affordable relative to what keyboards in general were going for at the time, though. Especially since it could often do the job of what would otherwise require multiple keyboards.

[Paul Woodward]

The new Korg Controller lists apps such as Gadget and Module in its promo material so you would think these (and more) are due a major update to take advantage of MPE. Many don’t even respond to aftertouch. Bit of a damp squid if you paired them up and, well, nothing to show off. 

[RABid]

For me the price was not a factor in getting the DX-7 when it was new. My Chroma was $4600 plus $250 for shipping. My MemoryMoog was around $3600. The DX-7 was going for $2500 in my area. Only one dealer could get them and they were upcharging because it was in high demand and they could get away with it at the time. The real factor for me getting a DX-7 was weight, sounds, and not having to spend hours every Sunday getting it back in tune. While it sounded a bit thin compared to my big analog beasts it functioned as my first ROMpler type keyboard. Yes, I know it was not a ROMpler, but it covered piano, sax, horns, bells, etc... better than anything else at the time. A few samplers were out at the time but they were big, heavy, slow to load sounds, and not very road worthy.

[Tusker]

I remember being encouraged (arm-twisted) to play the DX7 instead of the CP80, because it was easier for the crew to lug it. And beside it had that shiny new rhodes sound. 🤦‍♂️ 😁

 

I think what we are seeing is the long overdue blending of two previously distinct markets: the studio controller market and the gigging controller market. Or you could call it the programmer market and the player market. I sure hope Korg is sucessful enough with this keyboard to bring out a version with sliders ... or perhaps that drawbar touch display from the Vox continental.

[Stokely]

9 sliders, the reason is likely more that they think organ is an outmoded, outdated instrument for dinosaurs and they are selling to young hip people doing beeps and boops as their modular-style sequence runs and they make intense faces as they turn the cutoff knob  

If they considered organ at all, which is doubtful.

Still hopeful a new Arturia mk 3 might have both poly aftertouch and 9 like the mark 2 did, we shall see.  

[Tusker]

1 hour ago, Stokely said:

Still hopeful a new Arturia mk 3 might have both poly aftertouch and 9 like the mark 2 did, we shall see.  

 

Are you speaking of the Keylab? Didn't they de-content it and drop the price? 

[JimboKeys]

3 hours ago, Stokely said:

9 sliders, the reason is likely more that they think organ is an outmoded, outdated instrument for dinosaurs and they are selling to young hip people

Coming from an engineering perspective --- IC's and other electronics are based on 8-bit bytes, 8-bit ports on microcontrollers, 8-channel A/D converters, 8-channel analog multiplexers, etc.  So the cost of the added circuitry and complexity just to support a 9th slider is probably deemed not justifiable from a cost standpoint, given the (comparatively) small number of users who really need 9 sliders.

 

-- Jimbo

[AnotherScott]

5 hours ago, Paul Woodward said:

The new Korg Controller lists apps such as Gadget and Module in its promo material so you would think these (and more) are due a major update to take advantage of MPE. Many don’t even respond to aftertouch. Bit of a damp squid if you paired them up and, well, nothing to show off. 

 

I've seen this before, Korg promotes the apps on keyboards that don't support them very well. The XE20 does audio+midi over USB, so it's a nice one-cable connection to the iPad to run Korg apps like Module... but the XE20 provides no way to select an external sound without also playing one of its internal sounds. So if you want to play an app sound by itself, you have put the board into Local Off mode (an impediment to quick switching between internal and external sounds, or splitting internal and external sounds).  EK50 and Liano are similar.

[davinwv]

On 10/25/2023 at 3:12 PM, CyberGene said:

 

I love my Hydrasynth for its excellent polyphonic aftertouch but when I first started using it as a MIDI controller I was hugely disappointed, since black keys were producing much higher velocities than the white ones. Luckily ASM fixed it with a later firmware update. But I still think it may not be the best feeling action for general MIDI controller duties, especially for velocity sensitive sounds such as piano/Rhodes. Sure, synth keys are not the first choice for controlling piano sounds but since there are people that will buy these new keyboards as lightweight iPad/laptop-driven rigs, they may want to test the feel and response of the keys with various patches. It could be that some sacrifices were made in order to provide the undoubtedly great aftertouch control.

 

Has anyone bought a Keystage yet? If so, how is the velocity response of the keybed, especially the black keys?

 

I bought an NI Kontrol S61 MK3 back in October, and I have had a horrible time acclimating to its keybed. The black keys are so much hotter than the white ones. Given CyberGene's comment, this might just be an issue with polyphonic aftertouch keybeds.

 

I even started a thread about it on the NI forums (posting a link to some videos of the keybed behavior there), and it seems a few others are experiencing the same thing:

 

https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/18315/kontrol-s61-s49-mk3-velocity-response

 

One of the NI reps is trying to gaslight my playing technique in that thread, but the issue doesn't happen on any of the other controllers I have. 

 

Sweetwater is sending me a replacement unit, so we will see if it's better.

[AnotherScott]

On 10/25/2023 at 3:12 PM, CyberGene said:

 

I love my Hydrasynth for its excellent polyphonic aftertouch but when I first started using it as a MIDI controller I was hugely disappointed, since black keys were producing much higher velocities than the white ones. Luckily ASM fixed it with a later firmware update. 

 

1 hour ago, davinwv said:

 

Has anyone bought a Keystage yet? If so, how is the velocity response of the keybed, especially the black keys?

 

I bought an NI Kontrol S61 MK3 back in October, and I have had a horrible time acclimating to its keybed. The black keys are so much hotter than the white ones. Given CyberGene's comment, this might just be an issue with polyphonic aftertouch keybeds.

 

Keystage uses an ASM action. I wonder if NI may be using it as well. It could be, not an issue with polyAT actions, but an issue with ASM actions (and hopedully as easily fixable as it is on their own boards).

[davinwv]

4 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

 

 

Keystage uses an ASM action. I wonder if NI may be using it as well. It could be, not an issue with polyAT actions, but an issue with ASM actions (and hopedully as easily fixable as it is on their own boards).

 

The NI S49/61 MK3s use a new Fatar synth action with polyAT.

[K K]

Digital piano and synth actions with velocity discrepancies between white and black keys are not new. So there is no link between such problems and poly AT, rather it is a sign that the manufacturer has a faulty design or QC problems. Around 2000, I bought a brand new Kurzweil PC2X sight unseen, as I was confident the company was still making great products since I owned Kurzweils made in the 1990. What a mistake that was. I ended up discovering that the cheap Fatar action in the PC2X had the exact problem some mention here in recent products : black and white keys responding differently.

 

After arguing with Kurzweil to replace the action or the whole unit, the then "top customer service guy" (which I believe is still working for them) concluded my playing technique was the problem. Yeah, sure, I suddenly can't play any simple thing nor advanced classical stuff normally after 30 years of near daily practice, but only on their cheap Fatar action. After that, I decided to design a hardware solution myself (I also shared it with other PC2X owners who had the same problem) and after a few years sold the PC2X. From that lovely experience, I never bought from Kurzweil again because of their nonsense policy of ignoring their customers when they find actual problems with their products. In my book, a company who acts like this is blacklisted for life. Never regretted it.

 

So I am just telling anyone here, don't accept BS if a company blames you for their cheap products or faulty designs and telling you things like you don't know how to play correctly.

[David Emm]

On 12/4/2023 at 5:54 PM, K K said:

So I am just telling anyone here, don't accept BS if a company blames you for their cheap products or faulty designs and telling you things like you don't know how to play correctly.

 

That echoes my experience with my first DAW (Who Shall Not Be Named) and a snide wanker at Native Instruments who added to my desire to vacate their area. When such things rear their ugly heads early on, believe it. Give people an honest shot, but also avoid being too nice to your own detriment. There are many straight shooters making music tools who will reward your interest. I have a tidy, *working* basket full of their products.

[Stokely]

On 12/3/2023 at 10:56 AM, Tusker said:

 

Are you speaking of the Keylab? Didn't they de-content it and drop the price? 

 

Yes, the Keylab mark 3,  which doesn't currently exist last I checked.  Perhaps they did that with the Mark 2s to drop the price before the 3 comes out?

The main reason people seem to think a mark 3 is imminent is that they've already come out with the lesser Essentials mark 3, which is also what they did with the mark 2 apparently.

Anyway, if they don't come out with it, or they do and it doesn't have poly AT, I'll look elsewhere.  I already have channel AT keyboards I can use as a controller so it's not holding me up in any way.

As far as the 8 thing, Arturia overcame that difficulty and put 9 sliders on the mark 2s, so organ must have been in mind. 

[Tusker]

1 hour ago, Stokely said:

 

Yes, the Keylab mark 3,  which doesn't currently exist last I checked.  Perhaps they did that with the Mark 2s to drop the price before the 3 comes out?

The main reason people seem to think a mark 3 is imminent is that they've already come out with the lesser Essentials mark 3, which is also what they did with the mark 2 apparently.
 

 

Oh, I confused the Essentials Mark 3, with the Mark 3 which is not out yet. Thanks for straightening that out. Something good to look forward to. 👍

[AnotherScott]

I'm wondering if anyone has experience with how this action is for playing pianos. Of course I'm not expecting anything like a hammer action, but some non-hammer actions are much more amenable to piano playing than others, and I wonder how this compares. As good as a Casio CT-S1/CT-S500? As bad as a Kross 61/Juno DS61? Something in between?

 

(Aside, a correction to my post above from Dec 3... I referred to the EK50 as a board that did audio over USB, but I think I was mistaken about that.)