Moog lays off production staff.

[jerrythek]

7 hours ago, analogika said:

Korg actually sold itself to Yamaha the year before the M1 came out and did that. However, the terms were extremely amicable, and five years later, Korg was able to buy back its shares and go independent again. 

Not quite accurate. Yamaha invested in KORG (at their request), gaining a majority stake in the board, but not a complete sale or ownership. Small point of correction. 

[Spider76]

1 hour ago, ProfD said:

In KB speak, we use "big 3" to denote the most popular MI manufacturers (Yamaha, Roland and Korg) of pro-level KB gear. 😎

I know, but I think it's misleading because it makes people think that Korg is comparable to the others, while in reality they play in totally different leagues.

 

At least that's what happened with me: being used to see it in the same conversation as the big players, when I discovered how relatively small Korg was, I was absolutely astounded!

[CyberGene]

4 hours ago, Spider76 said:

From its own web page, it declares about 300 employees.

Are you sure about that? Seems like an unrealistically low number of employees for a company with so many products such as Korg. 

[Docbop]

5 minutes ago, CyberGene said:

Are you sure about that? Seems like an unrealistically low number of employees for a company with so many products such as Korg. 

 

I've seen posted a few times Nord is only 40 employees so maybe.   If most of the manufacturing is outsourced to building PCB, keybeds, etc in China and elsewhere then doesn't take a lot of employees to do the final assembly here. 

[Spider76]

25 minutes ago, CyberGene said:

Are you sure about that? Seems like an unrealistically low number of employees for a company with so many products such as Korg. 

It's what korg themselves write on their official site:

https://www.korg.com/us/corporate/profile/

Company Name

KORG INC.

Established

on August 28, 1963

Registered

on January 10, 1964

Capital

480 million-yen

Number of Employee

295

[jerrythek]

31 minutes ago, CyberGene said:

Are you sure about that? Seems like an unrealistically low number of employees for a company with so many products such as Korg. 

It's correct. A mighty little (mid-sized?) company!

[CyberGene]

Well that’s both impressive and a bit worrying. Just opening their website one can see so many products, hardware and software… I can’t imagine all of them being engineers too, you need some sales, support, finance, marketing. If I was a potential customer I would be worried if they can support their products. But maybe they are very efficient and lean, who knows. Japanese people are known for that although I’ve had some doubts about all that recently. 

[ProfD]

Companies use independent contractors which is a way of hiding employees because they do not count against payroll.😁😎

[jazzpiano88]

4 hours ago, jerrythek said:

11 hours ago, analogika said:

Korg actually sold itself to Yamaha the year before the M1 came out and did that. However, the terms were extremely amicable, and five years later, Korg was able to buy back its shares and go independent again. 

Not quite accurate. Yamaha invested in KORG (at their request), gaining a majority stake in the board, but not a complete sale or ownership. Small point of correction. 

 

Interesting!   Remember when Microsoft rescued Apple from bankruptcy?

[Docbop]

3 minutes ago, ProfD said:

Companies use independent contractors which is a way of hiding employees because they do not count against payroll.😁😎

and not pay for any benefits, vacation,  sick leave, etc.   You're just a Kleenex they use and toss out.   

[The Real MC]

3 hours ago, ProfD said:

Companies use independent contractors which is a way of hiding employees because they do not count against payroll.😁😎

Back in the halcyon days of analog synths, Tom Oberheim used to say that the biggest problem they had is that one week you needed 200 production employees and the next week you don't need any.

[ProfD]

3 hours ago, Docbop said:

and not pay for any benefits, vacation,  sick leave, etc.   You're just a Kleenex they use and toss out.   

They aren't working for free.  Like running a business, as a contractor instead of an employee, it's their responsibility to pay their own benefits.

 

43 minutes ago, The Real MC said:

Back in the halcyon days of analog synths, Tom Oberheim used to say that the biggest problem they had is that one week you needed 200 production employees and the next week you don't need any.

That reality is the reason temporary agencies exist. 😁😎

[Muad’Dib]

And so it begins!

[Docbop]

31 minutes ago, ProfD said:

They aren't working for free.  Like running a business, as a contractor instead of an employee, it's their responsibility to pay their own benefits.

 

That reality is the reason temporary agencies exist. 😁😎

 

My years at IBM were as a contractor so know was BS it was, but over the years we ended up better off than the True Blue our term for real IBM staff.   IBM staff stayed for decades with the company because of the IBM benefits and retirement programs, but IBM started screwing them over.  IBM started cutting pay and eliminating benefit programs of True Blue employees. Many IBM staff who were laid off ended up coming back as contractors.    Me I stayed at IBM until they got tired of paying the fees contracting firms charged and little by little all of our job went to India.    I needed the money so when they offered and extra month of employment if I helped train new contractors in India.   Which they were getting four contractors in India for watch each one of us US employees were paid.   It's not just IBM the mega corporations don't care about there employees anymore they are just Kleenex to be used and tossed out and that attitude is moving down to small corporations and business.    Sad world. 

 

[Mark Schmieder]

300 is NOT small! The company I worked at for 20 years until the pandemic shutdown of the musical industry, was hovering around 300 to 400 for most of that time, after a quick growth from about 100 in 1998 to the 300 range a few years later. It's not uncommon for companies to stay at relatively the same size once hitting 300 to 500 employees, and my former company easily put out as many complex products with fairly high production runs as KORG, even building everything in-house.

 

That does not affect my amazement at what KORG accomplishes relative to Roland and Yamaha with much bigger staffs, however. We were "only" building loudspeakers, acoustical panels, DSP, and also doing consulting. Designing synths probably takes a larger pool of core creative staff, and maybe fewer at the manufacturing end.

[CrossRhodes]

When Moog employees unionized to try and get a raise from $14.10/Hr to $17.70/Hr (what was considered the base level of a liveable wage in Asheville at the time), I think it was pretty clear that all was not well. Bob Moog was an inspiring figure in many ways but I don’t think the Moog company will be a model for any business classes unless it’s a cautionary tale.

Best wishes to all of the staff who have been layed off. Despite the friction with the Moog brass over their desire to be able to support themselves and their families while making boutique synthesizers, it is clear they had a deep passion and love for both the brand and the music it inspired.

It’s interesting to me that Rhodes has been able to come out with the MK8 which costs more than the car that most musicians I know drive and yet somehow seem to be moving in a sustainable direction. I don’t know the behind the scenes though so maybe they are hanging on by a thread as well.

Kind of bittersweet looking through the website and seeing all of the cool content filmed at the Asheville Factory. Wonder how long InMusic will try and keep that mythology alive?

[The Real MC]

Who in their right mind would unionize a small company with less than 100 employees?

[jerrythek]

9 hours ago, CyberGene said:

Well that’s both impressive and a bit worrying. Just opening their website one can see so many products, hardware and software… I can’t imagine all of them being engineers too, you need some sales, support, finance, marketing. If I was a potential customer I would be worried if they can support their products. But maybe they are very efficient and lean, who knows. Japanese people are known for that although I’ve had some doubts about all that recently. 

Worrying? Really? They've probably never been larger in their history, and they've been around now for almost 60 years... So I don't see a huge risk of the company folding, but every product will not get supported the same way/for as long. Products that do well will get supported longer. Products that don't do as well will likely get some support to bolster them, and if that doesn't help they will likely get "turned off". I think that is true for most companies in the musical product industry, regardless of their size.

[jerrythek]

1 hour ago, CrossRhodes said:

It’s interesting to me that Rhodes has been able to come out with the MK8 which costs more than the car that most musicians I know drive and yet somehow seem to be moving in a sustainable direction. I don’t know the behind the scenes though so maybe they are hanging on by a thread as well.

I think it's way too early to predict how they are doing/will do. But I sure hope they thrive!

[Mark Schmieder]

I'm wondering if the excellent software soft synths and Moogerfooger effects will get support going forward. Some of them now have challenges from Cherry Audio (and I haven't done direct shootouts yet), and I think a few were also long-time collaborations with Universal Audio for their hardware-hosted plug-ins.

[Spider76]

9 hours ago, Mark Schmieder said:

300 is NOT small! 

I was also about to say this.

Of course, 300 is tiny next to global conglomerate monstrosities like Roland or Yamaha.

 

But in absolute terms, it's not small in the least. I  think the critical threshold for a company is around 100 employees, when they must decide if they want to stay small (less expenses, less competition, lower volumes, higher profits) or keep growing.

That's a very risky endeavor because they step into the arena with the really big guys, but don't have yet a comparable critical mass.

 

It's like a boxer putting on a couple of kgs and rising to the next weight category: he suddenly goes from being the biggest and strongest in the old class, winning every match easily, to being the smallest and weakest in the new class, and every match becomes a fight for his life.

 

I think that's the situation where Moog was. To me, it's not korg that's too small for his product portfolio, it was moog that was too big for making a profit with very few, highly specialized product lines, all relatively similar and competing with themselves.

[Tusker]

On 9/26/2023 at 8:15 PM, Mark Schmieder said:

300 is NOT small! The company I worked at for 20 years until the pandemic shutdown of the musical industry, was hovering around 300 to 400 for most of that time, after a quick growth from about 100 in 1998 to the 300 range a few years later. It's not uncommon for companies to stay at relatively the same size once hitting 300 to 500 employees, and my former company easily put out as many complex products with fairly high production runs as KORG, even building everything in-house.

 

Agree. 300 is a lot of brainpower. The in-house model is unusually distinctive these days though.

 

Outsourcing each bit of the supply chain to the most effective place to do it, means that a company is directly controlling only the key activities. The rest is done outside: components bought from whoever can make them, assembly in medium cost/skill environments, design in high skill/engineering environments, customer service through call center environments, financing through financial centers and so on. Locating activities in these competency clusters enables a small company to have a big impact. Very complex processes work across geographies and vendors, in clusters of competencies.

 

More companies are de-risking but not necessarily in-housing. Due to its efficiency, the competency cluster model will remain, perhaps distributed in a slightly different geographic footprint.

[ProfD]

2 hours ago, Tusker said:

More companies are de-risking but not necessarily in-housing. Due to its efficiency, the competency cluster model will remain, perhaps distributed in a slightly different geographic footprint.

The million-dollar question is in high competency clusters are there still manager types who collect high salaries and bonuses while sitting in an office with their feet on the desk reading a newspaper or the modern equivalent...surfing the internet.🤣😎

[AnotherScott]

22 hours ago, jerrythek said:

It's correct. A mighty little (mid-sized?) company!

Is it 300 employees worldwide (i.e. including Korg Italy, Korg USA, Korg UK)? Or are those separate? From what I can tell, Korg Italy actually manufactures products. USA and UK do not (afaik), but I have seen references to certain products being designed/developed there, IIRC.

[stoken6]

23 hours ago, Docbop said:

and not pay for any benefits, vacation,  sick leave, etc.   You're just a Kleenex they use and toss out.   

 

20 hours ago, ProfD said:

They aren't working for free.  Like running a business, as a contractor instead of an employee, it's their responsibility to pay their own benefits.

 

I think it's fair. Both sides know the deal going in. A number of my (former full-time-employed) colleagues took the contractor route and love the freedom it gives them.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[ProfD]

5 minutes ago, stoken6 said:

I think it's fair. Both sides know the deal going in. A number of my (former full-time-employed) colleagues took the contractor route and love the freedom it gives them.

 

I know KC is a family-friendly form but still had to type that it's similar to prostitution...transactional.😁😎

[jerrythek]

6 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

Is it 300 employees worldwide (i.e. including Korg Italy, Korg USA, Korg UK)? Or are those separate? From what I can tell, Korg Italy actually manufactures products. USA and UK do not (afaik), but I have seen references to certain products being designed/developed there, IIRC.

You know, I'm not sure, but I would guess that it does include Italy and the Korg R&D group, not the distributors (Korg USA, Korg UK etc.). 

 

At any rate, Korg Italy shows on LinkedIn to have about 40 employees. Korg R&D is a small group, no more than a dozen people. Oh, and now there's Korg Berlin. Also a very small operation, maybe 5-8 people? But remember that Korg in Japan has sales, marketing and accounting staff, including both export and domestic market people. And Korg Italy has manufacturing staff, some accounting etc. So that number is certainly not all engineering.

[Dave Bryce]

1 hour ago, stoken6 said:

 

I think it's fair. Both sides know the deal going in. A number of my (former full-time-employed) colleagues took the contractor route and love the freedom it gives them.

 

Speaking as a contractor, I’m inclined to agree.  That status has allowed me to work several gigs at once, which way suits my ADHD tendencies. 🤔😏

 

dB

[Mark Schmieder]

6 hours ago, stoken6 said:

 

I think it's fair. Both sides know the deal going in. A number of my (former full-time-employed) colleagues took the contractor route and love the freedom it gives them.

 

Cheers, Mike.

 

I almost had a nervous breakdown during the half year that I was forced into contracting during the pandemic, and would never do it again -- I would retire first.

 

Far less freedom, to be frank, but it may depend on the profession. I like having a paycheck every two weeks vs. after I am done with a project and everyone's satisfied.

[stoken6]

7 hours ago, Mark Schmieder said:

 

I almost had a nervous breakdown during the half year that I was forced into contracting during the pandemic, and would never do it again -- I would retire first.

 

Far less freedom, to be frank, but it may depend on the profession. I like having a paycheck every two weeks vs. after I am done with a project and everyone's satisfied.

I'm the same as you, it's not a lifestyle I would choose for myself at this stage in my career. But I don't think it's unethical to employ contractors, or to offer your services as a contractor, providing the pay and effort are reasonable on both sides. 

 

Cheers, Mike.